Any ideas what the Government is going to suggest?

[pemma]

No you didn't, you said many.

Even less reason for you to complain that you are an exception then.

 

[Flamingo]

Like all good government reports, McNulty wrote the recommendations and conclusion first, then set out to find evidence to support it.

That has to be remembered above all else.

 

[warriorwarlord]

London Underground seems to have done this for the last few years, headed by a sinister management who are hell-bent on getting rid of as many staff as they can for various political reasons. It's almost seems as if LU's changes have been an experiment for a nationwide adoption (DOO, Smartcards, reducing the number of staff to a number they can get away with, see a pattern here?) Whilst the government harp on about benefit claimants they will be slashing jobs on the railways like there’s no tomorrow and putting more people on the dole, all for the sake of "progress" eh? Nothing like a lovely slice of hypocrisy.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Like all good government reports, McNulty wrote the recommendations and conclusion first, then set out to find evidence to support it.

We could call that "Recommendation-led research" to give it an almost-credible Civil Service ring to it.
I think the burning of witches and bombing of Vietnam worked in much the same way, both having an additional bonus at the end: even the evidence is gone.

 

[Bellwater]

Even less reason for you to complain that you are an exception then.

I'm making a Complaint here and now.

You can't get your own comments right.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

In some ways I am lucky being in the North are trains are old are infrastructure ancient so alot of this DOO garbage (IMHO) will not happen for 20+ years my main concern is for the likes of Booking office staff etc who will end up on the scrapheap because of Mcnumpty, these are sad times for the railway, everyone agrees about saving money but hardly anyone mentions the human cost of the £1000's made unemployed by "progress", All governments are hypocrites they go on about "saving money" take peoples jobs away then complain about High unemployment, most costs are for tenders that are ridiculously overpriced (electrification with gantry that looks like an artist developed) when things could be so much cheaper (Gantrys on whats left of the Woodhead line for example) both do the same thing 1 costs 500 the other 150 so they go for (usually the 500) not very accurate example but you see my point (I hope) although Privatisation brought money into the railways they are taken alot more out from the Passengers and the government for their shareholders (it is a business after all) and there lies the problem) yes alot of railway staff are well paid, I do OK but not anywhere near the amounts drivers get (I don't begrudge them that although I am slightly jealous) but more money is wasted around TOC's and Network Rail then is anywhere needed, concentrate on them first.

 

[cuccir]

"Future franchises will be awarded on the basis of past records in driving down costs"* The race to the bottom continues....

*Quote from a newspaper, not the report, I should clarify!

 

[All Line Rover]

In some ways I am lucky being in the North are trains are old are infrastructure ancient so alot of this DOO garbage (IMHO) will not happen for 20+ years my main concern is for the likes of Booking office staff etc who will end up on the scrapheap because of Mcnumpty, these are sad times for the railway, everyone agrees about saving money but hardly anyone mentions the human cost of the £1000's made unemployed by "progress", All governments are hypocrites they go on about "saving money" take peoples jobs away then complain about High unemployment, most costs are for tenders that are ridiculously overpriced (electrification with gantry that looks like an artist developed) when things could be so much cheaper (Gantrys on whats left of the Woodhead line for example) both do the same thing 1 costs 500 the other 150 so they go for (usually the 500) not very accurate example but you see my point (I hope) although Privatisation brought money into the railways they are taken alot more out from the Passengers and the government for their shareholders (it is a business after all) and there lies the problem) yes alot of railway staff are well paid, I do OK but not anywhere near the amounts drivers get (I don't begrudge them that although I am slightly jealous) but more money is wasted around TOC's and Network Rail then is anywhere needed, concentrate on them first.

To be honest, considering around 90% of transactions made at a ticket office can be made at a ticket machine, I think it is reasonable for ticket office staff numbers to be reduced. At the moment, yes, there are certain transactions that can only be made at a ticket office - e.g. refunds, rovers, buying a ticket with an origin from a different station, etc... However, most of these could be programmed into a ticket machine, and those that cannot - such as refunds - could dealt with online.

However, before this can happen, there must be a big shift towards using ticket machines. It's not happening at the moment, so some marketing would help!

The one thing I don't agree with is DOO on InterCity trains. I can't imagine what it would be like to be on an 11-car DOO Pendolino, with hundreds of passengers on board, during severe disruption.

 

[Zoe]

Do any ticket machines allow you to buy an advance ticket? I know you can collect them from the ticket machine if you buy online but some people do still buy advance tickets at the station.

 

[Greenback]

To be honest, considering around 90% of transactions made at a ticket office can be made at a ticket machine, I think it is reasonable for ticket office staff numbers to be reduced. At the moment, yes, there are certain transactions that can only be made at a ticket office - e.g. refunds, rovers, buying a ticket with an origin from a different station, etc... However, most of these could be programmed into a ticket machine, and those that cannot - such as refunds - could dealt with online.

However, before this can happen, there must be a big shift towards using ticket machines. It's not happening at the moment, so some marketing would help!

The one thing I don't agree with is DOO on InterCity trains. I can't imagine what it would be like to be on an 11-car DOO Pendolino, with hundreds of passengers on board, during severe disruption.

Many people do not like using machines, so it's not just a question of marketing. Many improvements need to be made to TVM's before they cna be thought of as anything other than a supplement to a ticket office.

Rather than buying tickets in libraries and shops, ticket offices should follow the M To Go example and offer more services than just tickets!

 

[cuccir]

Rather than buying tickets in libraries and shops, ticket offices should follow the M To Go example and offer more services than just tickets!

Yes, particularly at smaller stations. In a number of smaller towns, tourist information centres have closed as well (indeed, not only in smaller towns!). Surely these and ticket offices might be natural services to merge in a lot of places...

 

[All Line Rover]

Many people do not like using machines, so it's not just a question of marketing. Many improvements need to be made to TVM's before they cna be thought of as anything other than a supplement to a ticket office.

Rather than buying tickets in libraries and shops, ticket offices should follow the M To Go example and offer more services than just tickets!

Many people do not like being prevented from paying by cheque either, but they've got no choice. If it benefits the business, and the majority of customers accept it, then it will be implemented.

I agree that TVM's are nowhere near good enough (at the moment) to replace ticket offices. But eventually they will be. They'll have to be if the rail industry wants to reduce costs.

The statistics below are also very interesting:

204. Research has also shown that certain user groups find self-service ticket machines particularly difficult to use:

-Those passengers who are unfamiliar and feel less confident with the technology, including older passengers – for example only 20% of Senior Railcard holders choose to buy their tickets from a self-service machine compared with 59% of 16-25 Railcard holders27;​

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Do any ticket machines allow you to buy an advance ticket? I know you can collect them from the ticket machine if you buy online but some people do still buy advance tickets at the station.

Well, I've never tried but I do know from my local station that they seem to be usually used for picking up tickets purchased over the net or to the most popular local destinations - but what is often forgotten when we ware all tapping away on our laptops and phones is that there are still a large number of people who do prefer to use the booking office because they might not have the internet or feel confident enough to use it....probably the elderly and those who are geographically challenged (of all ages). I would hate to see booking office staff disappear - they are really, really helpful at my local station when I have a query - and I know a little bit about the rail network. For those people who don't thay can be invaluable.

 

[Bellwater]

Cynic mode on, but maybe the Senior Railcard issue might be got round by offering over 60s so many free journeys or free rail travel.

Let's face it, they get plenty of other stuff for free.

 

[PHILIPE]

Mc Nulty mentioned the railway being disfunctional, but as this was the result of privatisation one would expect it to be ignored by Government. Bodies such as the ORR for one were created to join all the disfunctional bits together. The number of staff employed in attribution of delays was referred to on the Panorama programme recently but this is only passing money round within the industry so how much does this all cost ?
When trains were planned and timed under BR, each Region would time trains through it's patch. Now each TOC has to do it and duplicated by Network Rail in order to validate the timings to path in agreement of other TOCs trains.
I am not writing this either for or against privatistion in general, but the Railway Industry was totally unsuitable to be split up for privatisation to work in it's operation, hence many additional costs.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, particularly at smaller stations. In a number of smaller towns, tourist information centres have closed as well (indeed, not only in smaller towns!). Surely these and ticket offices might be natural services to merge in a lot of places...

I agree.

Many people do not like being prevented from paying by cheque either, but they've got no choice. If it benefits the business, and the majority of customers accept it, then it will be implemented.

That's not really the same thing in my view. I know of hardly anyone who uses cheques now, and many organisations have stopped accepting them, not just the railways. However, I can still choose to deal with a human being rather than a machine when I go to a shop, a cinema, a theatre, a rugby match and so on. Maybe we won't need or want the facility to speak to a human being face to face in ten year's time, but if that does turn out to be the case it will evolve that way rather than being forced on people.

I agree that TVM's are nowhere near good enough (at the moment) to replace ticket offices. But eventually they will be. They'll have to be if the rail industry wants to reduce costs.

The statistics below are also very interesting:

It isn't just particular groups and the difficulty of using the TVM's. It's human nature and a mistrust of machines.

Even if TVM's can deal with refunds, tickets from other stations, rovers, rangers, plusbus, monthly and longer season tickets, and replace faded tickets, do an encode exchange, provide a refund, correct wrongly bought tickets and everything else that a staffed ticket office can do, there will still be some people who will not use them.

Every morning there is a queue at my local ticket office, but no one at the TVM. That says it all for me.

 

[Schnellzug]

To be honest, considering around 90% of transactions made at a ticket office can be made at a ticket machine, I think it is reasonable for ticket office staff numbers to be reduced. .

I don't. Ticket machines are horrendously over-complex and non-user friendly (much like the fares themselves, perhaps.) The latest generation ones are much less user-friendly than the old NSE ones in that regard; touch screens are very much a step backwards from pressing good old fashioned Buttons. Not to mention that, like all Machines, you can guarantee that it'll be out of order at a time when you've got 5 minutes before your Train and the queue at the sole ticket Window that's open will be out of the door (and of course, as we all know, you MUST buy your Ticket before you board one of our Trains).

 

[Greenback]

Well, I've never tried but I do know from my local station that they seem to be usually used for picking up tickets purchased over the net or to the most popular local destinations - but what is often forgotten when we ware all tapping away on our laptops and phones is that there are still a large number of people who do prefer to use the booking office because they might not have the internet or feel confident enough to use it....probably the elderly and those who are geographically challenged (of all ages). I would hate to see booking office staff disappear - they are really, really helpful at my local station when I have a query - and I know a little bit about the rail network. For those people who don't thay can be invaluable.

Indeed. TVM's have their place, I would use one if there was no booking office open and I wanted a straightforward ticket, and they are very useful for picking up tickets bought on the net.

I'd just like to see some imaginative thinking rather than the usual 'close it down' argument to save money. I doubt that closing a lot of ticket offices is going to make a major difference to railway finances in any case.

 

[Zoe]

Well, I've never tried but I do know from my local station that they seem to be usually used for picking up tickets purchased over the net

Yes, I'm just not sure if there are any that actually let you book an advance ticket rather than just collect one that you have already booked online.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have just read the Fares & Ticketing Review document, particularly the exposition of the current structure and how it works.
I don't know who "we" is in the context of the document (I assume DfT), but they have put up a robust defence of every jot and tittle of the current setup, with "we know better then you" and "change it at your peril" overtones.
I always thought the TOCs were the villains of the piece on fares, but now I realise it's DfT, eg. they define Peak hours, not the TOC.
So Virgin's draconian peak restrictions are down to DfT, not VT.

All the little foibles to maintain high (and sometimes low) fares are explained and defended.
Any logical change in some fares (eg Saver Single at 50% of the Return) is resisted as being likely to dilute the fare box or encourage "fraud".
It says what good value long-distance Seasons are, but then rejects any idea of bringing them more into line with short-distance ones.

At least they are opening the debate, but it is quite clear DfT wants no material change in the fares structure.
We can probably look forward to even more complexity in the future ("shoulder" fares and suchlike).
I expect Barry Doe and Passenger Focus are having apoplexy about it all.

 

[PhilipW]

I always thought the TOCs were the villains of the piece on fares, but now I realise it's DfT, eg. they define Peak hours, not the TOC.

Are you sure ? In the past TOCs have changed the periods of Peak hours. They are also not consistant across the network.

 

[Flamingo]

I always thought the TOCs were the villains of the piece on fares, but now I realise it's DfT, eg. they define Peak hours, not the TOC.

And the TOC's are held to ransom over things like future franchise agreements, so will take the flak rather than be seen to openly criticize or advertise this. we have been told to never attribute delays to Network Rail when making delay announcements, for example.

 

[Greenback]

Are you sure ? In the past TOCs have changed the periods of Peak hours. They are also not consistant across the network.

I agree. I do not think it's DfT that changes the restriction codes on tickets, I doubt they have the competence to make those sorts of decisions.

 

[Zoe]

I agree. I do not think it's DfT that changes the restriction codes on tickets, I doubt they have the competence to make those sorts of decisions.

The DfT though do set the times where TOCs can restrict regulated fares.

 

[Flamingo]

I agree. I do not think it's DfT that changes the restriction codes on tickets, I doubt they have the competence to make those sorts of decisions.

Since when did lack of competence stop any government department making a decision?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are you sure ? In the past TOCs have changed the periods of Peak hours. They are also not consistant across the network.

The TOCs have some flexibility (which no doubt they exploit), but the 1030 London arrival time for off-peak tickets is DfT-regulated (ie VT and the rest didn't extend it from 0930 just to keep fares high, which was my impression).
At least that's my reading of the doc.

 

[Zoe]

The TOCs have some flexibility (which no doubt they exploit), but the 1030 London arrival time for off-peak tickets is DfT-regulated (ie VT and the rest didn't extend it from 0930 just to keep fares high, which was my impression).
At least that's my reading of the doc.

So the TOCs are not allowed to offer regulated fares in the peak even if they want to?

 

[jon0844]

You can't catch a train from most Post offices or Libraries.

Of course not, but it works in London so don't be so quick to dismiss it. I already said that it would only be possible when ticketing changes, and quite radically - which it WILL.

Just as robots replaced people in factories, we'll get smarter ticketing eventually and it will mean there's less need for people to sell tickets at stations - but that doesn't mean there's no need for staff elsewhere. In fact, as usage increases, there's security/revenue protection and customer service roles to help people who may not have an issue with paying to travel, but need advice and assistance.

I'd want to see MORE staff on the railway, not less - but the roles will change in the future.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd like to see them introduce DOO on CrossCountry, East Coast, First Great Western and Virgin Trains! :roll: There would be havoc!

With different rolling stock, there's no reason why that wouldn't happen eventually. It wouldn't mean there would be no staff on the train though.

 

[Zoe]

With different rolling stock, there's no reason why that wouldn't happen eventually. It wouldn't mean there would be no staff on the train though.

In the long term driverless trains could be used and just have a member of staff on board for emergencies.

 

[jon0844]

Well, nobody except the Competion Commission, under the last Government's direction, and they reported that the Roscos were definitely not the rip off people keep going on about.

No, it's great to be able to charge top dollar for trains that are 30 odd years old.. and not even ensure they're given a significant refurbishment as against new seat covers, vinyl flooring and some new paint.

The TOCs are getting the most blame by the general public, but don't seem to be spending the bulk of our money. Joe Public blame the fat cats running the train operating companies, and blaming them for using old trains, and not often enough - when we all know they're somewhat limited in what they can do. FCC, for example, can't run 24 hour trains into King's Cross but I know they've said (albeit back in 2006/7) that they'd like to as they'd almost certainly find them used. They also wanted to extend Oyster outside Z6, until the DfT stepped in.

I do believe a lot of the problems lie with Network Rail, sub-contractors and suppliers etc, as well as the problem of accountability. I'd also like to know why simple jobs now cost so much, which is probably why we're paying 20-30% more than we should be. I don't think the fault lies with the staff that work for the TOCs and provide the service, so I hope the Government isn't going to target them.