Any ideas what the Government is going to suggest?

[YorkshireBear]

I think having the driver open the doors is a great idea and am swaying to having them close them too and just have the guard doing ticket checks. Surely this is cheaper than ticket barriers on quite a few lines?

 

[Flamingo]

I think having the driver open the doors is a great idea and am swaying to having them close them too and just have the guard doing ticket checks. Surely this is cheaper than ticket barriers on quite a few lines?

Expecting one person to check 2-3-400 tickets on a train in the 30 minutes it takes to get from Paddington to Reading, or 20 minutes from Bridgend to Cardiff for example, is unrealistic.

I don't care what is said, the figures show that barriered stations decrease the amount of ticket-less travel and "short-buying" of tickets. They don't pick up on all ticket irregularities, but they are a major help. The figures for South Wales prove this. The also act as a deterrent to anti-social behavior.

Apart from all the other arguments in favour of the Guard.

 

[jon0844]

To be honest, considering around 90% of transactions made at a ticket office can be made at a ticket machine, I think it is reasonable for ticket office staff numbers to be reduced. At the moment, yes, there are certain transactions that can only be made at a ticket office - e.g. refunds, rovers, buying a ticket with an origin from a different station, etc... However, most of these could be programmed into a ticket machine, and those that cannot - such as refunds - could dealt with online.

However, before this can happen, there must be a big shift towards using ticket machines. It's not happening at the moment, so some marketing would help!

The one thing I don't agree with is DOO on InterCity trains. I can't imagine what it would be like to be on an 11-car DOO Pendolino, with hundreds of passengers on board, during severe disruption.

I'm rather sad to say it, but I agree. I've had more than my fair share of problems getting the right ticket from my local station - and not always (but usually) from the young trainee or agency staff. As a result, I've been tempted to use the TVMs, but they haven't sold the tickets I want either (extensions etc).. so I've gone to booking online wherever possible.

The poorly trained, or totally disinterested, ticket office staff are doing themselves no favours. If they're genuinely untrained, I sympathise (and likewise, I'd accept them saying 'sorry, I don't know how to do that' even if I'd be disappointed). In the last year or two, I've had so many saying 'You can't do that', 'I can't do that here', 'You'll have to get it there' and other attempts to palm me off. One one occasion, I went to ask the gateline RPI to sell me an excess ticket (off-peak to peak) and he said 'Why the hell didn't the <ticket officer> man sell you it? He's just lazy' and walked over with me to get him to do it!

Smart ticketing and getting e-tickets will totally transform travel (sic) and we'll soon have multiple generations that are perfectly fine with technology and will be able to understand an app on their phone to get all the info they need. In fact, the way we're going, the next generation will probably be unable to even communicate with a member of staff as they'll have to do everything online via SMS or IM.

Finally, TVM software has to be updated - with proper usability testing. I am sure that will happen too, one day. Maybe get Apple to develop the UI! Technology is my life, but even I dislike using TVMs as they are. Design them well and people will accept them, just as people accept cash machines and, increasingly, using self-checkouts in stores.
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In the long term driverless trains could be used and just have a member of staff on board for emergencies.

Unless the railway was even more tightly contained, I don't think that could work as no amount of cameras or sensors would be able to detect the various things that could happen - from trespassers to lineside workers etc.

The technology is there to run things like on the tube or DLR, but you'd likely need to keep a driver there looking out (but with the train driving itself, what's to keep the driver alert?) as it wouldn't be any good having him/her 6 coaches back. DLR trains are a lot shorter for one, but it's also a very controlled environment.

 

[Zoe]

Unless the railway was even more tightly contained, I don't think that could work as no amount of cameras or sensors would be able to detect the various things that could happen - from trespassers to lineside workers etc.

Give it time and computers may well be very good at doing this.

 

[DarloRich]

So farewell then all booking office staff.

Yes; that will save the railways a fortune! Nothing about the inherent structural problems of the privatised railway system?

 

[jon0844]

Give it time and computers may well be very good at doing this.

I am sure they'll be great at doing it 99.95% of the time - but it's the 0.05% of the time that will get all the headlines.

We all know planes can fly themselves pretty much all the time, yet most passengers won't want to fly on a plane without any crew. I am sure people may be a little unhappy with a train that is doing 100, 200 or 300mph without a driver.

TBH, I doubt drivers have too much to worry about here.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Ahhhh TVM's great piece of Kit, installed one at Dore and Totley a few months ago, Card only (even though a SGL to Sheffield is under £2) and what percentage use it, I would say with experience about 5%. Why? because (according to my passengers) its Slow, complicated for longer tickets, does not have all the fares, and it does not accept cash, great for the average passenger doing the shopping in Sheffield..NOT! Computers/TVM's etc are ok for basic things (if they are set up correctly andaccept cash lol) but you cannot beat the human face of the railway, for all you technophiles out there do you really think the railway will become cheaper?? if you do you are living in dreamland putting people out of work is NOT the answer!

 

[2Dogbox]

So farewell then all booking office staff.

Yes; that will save the railways a fortune! Nothing about the inherent structural problems of the privatised railway system?

Booking office staff are always the first to be recommended to go on these ridiculous reports. Our company had what it so nicely called "head count reduction" about 2 years ago where it decided to get rid of a number of booking office and station staff. Needless to say it was actually worse "value for money" for the passengers as they had to queue for tickets and there were fewer staff to provide passenger assistance.

Everyday when I'm checking tickets on trains I talk to passengers who complain that they don't want to use TVMs and want REAL people to deal with. Especially as a lot of the TVMs are usually showing a flashing red fault light. ...

Never mind though as if the government wanted full "value for money" it could get rid of me as well, then passengers would have no-one to complain to at all, (or to provide information, assist when it all goes wrong, help disabled people get on to the train at unstaffed stations, stop fare dodging, deal with drunks, assist the elderly with luggage, reassure confused and stressed passengers . . . Etc)

 

[All Line Rover]

So farewell then all booking office staff.

Yes; that will save the railways a fortune! Nothing about the inherent structural problems of the privatised railway system?

Getting rid of booking office staff certainly won't solve the problem of high costs. The railways have far bigger problems to worry about. But, as Tesco say, "every little helps" (), and I genuinely don't think ticket offices will be necessary within the next decade or two.

Who would have thought just one decade ago that millions of people would buy tickets at home, via a telephone line, without even having to speak to someone!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Getting rid of booking office staff certainly won't solve the problem of high costs. The railways have far bigger problems to worry about. But, as Tesco say, "every little helps" (), and I genuinely don't think ticket offices will be necessary within the next decade or two.

Who would have thought just one decade ago that millions of people would buy tickets at home, via a telephone line, without even having to speak to someone!

Then complain to the guard when they have the wrong ticket! :roll:

oops forgot if McNumpty and a few on here have there way we will be gone as well

and prices will still rise

 

[Wath Yard]

The TOCs have some flexibility (which no doubt they exploit), but the 1030 London arrival time for off-peak tickets is DfT-regulated (ie VT and the rest didn't extend it from 0930 just to keep fares high, which was my impression).
At least that's my reading of the doc.

That doesn't explain why you can't arrive in London on a VT train using an off peak ticket before midday.

 

[All Line Rover]

Then complain to the guard when they have the wrong ticket! :roll:

Certainly I don't want to give the impression that I support TfL's method of "cut staff at all costs! Dear God we must cut staff!!!", but at the same time, the railways must keep up with the times.

TfL are planning to introduce driverless tube trains in the long run, and this is the one point I actually agree with them on! The DLR, Lille Metro, parts of the Paris Metro and many others can all cope with driverless trains, so why not the underground? I do love the RMT's quote that Londoners will be "risking their lives" every time they use the tube.

Staff costs form a significant part of the railway's total costs, and whilst the railway must focus on reducing its other costs (parts of which see far greater wastage), they can't simply ignore staffing costs. A prime example of over-staffing is Virgin's apparent philosophy that every Pendolino with a "Light Bites" service in First Class must have up to FOUR First Class CSA's. I mean come on!? On a 90 minute run you only need ONE CSA to do a run with the drinks trolley, and then a run with the food trolley! Rather than four CSA's doing it all in the space of 10 minutes and then chatting for the rest of the journey...

 

[Bald Rick]

Hands up who would rather have a member of staff out and about on the station, helping people with directions, information, using ticket machines (which in most cases need much improvement) etc, than stuck behind a glass window, sometimes (often?) with little to do.

Also, hands up who would rather see pairs of RPIs on busy commuter routes, say 1 trip in 10, dishing out proper penalty fares (£100), than having a conductor / guard on every train who because he has to operate the doors at every station has no hope of getting to see every ticket.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Certainly I don't want to give the impression that I support TfL's method of "cut staff at all costs! Dear God we must cut staff!!!", but at the same time, the railways must keep up with the times.

TfL are planning to introduce driverless tube trains in the long run, and this is the one point I actually agree with them on! The DLR, Lille Metro, parts of the Paris Metro and many others can all cope with driverless trains, so why not the underground? I do love the RMT's quote that Londoners will be "risking their lives" every time they use the tube.

Staff costs form a significant part of the railway's total costs, and whilst the railway must focus on reducing its other costs (parts of which see far greater wastage), they can't simply ignore staffing costs.

(IMHO) they should start with middle management and their ilk before frontline staff, however even around here only a small percentage of stations have booking offices (at a guess around 10%) and out of them maybe another 10% are open "full time" so around here I can't see much saving, we have very old rolling stock that when they become life expired will more likely be replaced by slightly less older rolling stock, the role of the guard is alot more then selling tickets and doing the doors, especially on local routes, we are the source for practically everything passenger-railway orientated, DOO won't hit Manchester way for many a year and when it does (as I am sure it will) not only will Staff obviously lose but the passengers will as well. Personally I doubt many of these recommendations will actually happen (apart from longer franchises etc.) but there needs to be a balance between modernisation and the human face, the majority of passengers (from my experience) hate TVM's and will do anything NOT to use them.

 

[WestCoast]

Getting rid of booking office staff certainly won't solve the problem of high costs. The railways have far bigger problems to worry about. But, as Tesco say, "every little helps" (), and I genuinely don't think ticket offices will be necessary within the next decade or two.

Who would have thought just one decade ago that millions of people would buy tickets at home, via a telephone line, without even having to speak to someone!

Well, it was stated by many that the internet revolution would also spell the end for travel agencies, and although their prominence has certainly decreased, they still exist across the country on high streets, in supermarkets and on retail parks. There are certain people, and not just the older generation, who prefer to buy tickets face-to-face as they aren't confident about the system and want specific advice and guidance on different matters.

What I can perhaps see happening at smaller stations is more outsourcing of ticket offices, as is commonplace in certain mainland European countries. Ticket offices becoming more like independent business ventures, chiefly as part of travel agencies (this already exists in the UK) and convenience stores, but the concept can technically work with any business with premises close to, or within stations. For example, I once saw a bike shop in a station as an authorised ticket retailer on the continent. Obviously, it does raise certain issues in terms of impartial retailing and training e.t.c, but it does also present an opportunity for stations that would otherwise become devoid of a ticket office due to cost cutting by TOCs.

 

[pt_mad]

Its like self checkouts at supermarkets. Probably in ten years time there will be 30 self service checkouts and 10 members of staff watching them.

You can have three people selling tickets at three windows or you can have one person supervising six self service machines. If someone gets stuck there is a person there to assist.

The way technology is going this is going to happen for sure be it sooner or later.

 

[All Line Rover]

Hands up who would rather have a member of staff out and about on the station, helping people with directions, information, using ticket machines (which in most cases need much improvement) etc, than stuck behind a glass window, sometimes (often?) with little to do.

Yes, certainly!

Also, hands up who would rather see pairs of RPIs on busy commuter routes, say 1 trip in 10, dishing out proper penalty fares (£100), than having a conductor / guard on every train who because he has to operate the doors at every station has no hope of getting to see every ticket.

Err... no. Not unless they have a thorough knowledge of the Routeing Guide, which I doubt.

 

[bystander]

Hands up who would rather have a member of staff out and about on the station, helping people with directions, information, using ticket machines (which in most cases need much improvement) etc, than stuck behind a glass window, sometimes (often?) with little to do.

Also, hands up who would rather see pairs of RPIs on busy commuter routes, say 1 trip in 10, dishing out proper penalty fares (£100), than having a conductor / guard on every train who because he has to operate the doors at every station has no hope of getting to see every ticket.

Hear, hear on both counts. Well said.

As a driver, I find that working trains with a guard is frankly a pain as it dilutes control (although I would say that I suppose); but I love it when there are other staff on board on my DOO routes, who then are not, as is often the case with guards, diluted from both their customer care duties and their safety critical train duties by the need to undertake both.

In my view and in my experience, naturally.

 

[tbtc]

Getting rid of booking office staff certainly won't solve the problem of high costs. The railways have far bigger problems to worry about. But, as Tesco say, "every little helps" (), and I genuinely don't think ticket offices will be necessary within the next decade or two.

Who would have thought just one decade ago that millions of people would buy tickets at home, via a telephone line, without even having to speak to someone!

Agreed.

In some ways we still have the railway experience (for passengers) that we had under BR (outside London at least). There are a few more announcements made, a free copy of the Metro in the morning, some more shops at the stations, and the information screens at the station are better, but for those buying tickets at a Booking Office their journey experience is familiar.

With all the advances we've had in technology, many people carrying smartphones, Oyster technology (other card types are available...), there's surely scope to improve things

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I often find the best way to limit a tree's growth is to trim it at the top, when I see trees only trimmed at the bottom they look very unkept at the top and there comes a point when there is nothing left at the bottom to trim. Shame the rule makers aren't gardeners really.

 

[pt_mad]

I went to a station just outside Bham a few weeks ago and asked for the cheapest return to New Street. the ticket sales person asked for double the fare but it was because they were offering a fare higher up the scale with an anytime return. After quierying the price they then did offer me the chepest price.
Next time I went I used the machine and straight away it showed me the off peak cheap price without the hastle.

For the new generation that can operate smartphones and computers in their sleep ticket machines are the future.

 

[LE Greys]

I often find the best way to limit a tree's growth is to trim it at the top, when I see trees only trimmed at the bottom they look very unkept at the top and there comes a point when there is nothing left at the bottom to trim. Shame the rule makers aren't gardeners really.

Shame money doesn't grow on trees. (sorry)

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Hear, hear on both counts. Well said.

As a driver, I find that working trains with a guard is frankly a pain as it dilutes control (although I would say that I suppose); but I love it when there are other staff on board on my DOO routes, who then are not, as is often the case with guards, diluted from both their customer care duties and their safety critical train duties by the need to undertake both.

In my view and in my experience, naturally.

aah but don't forget how it works just look at the underground

No Guard, Driver has full control and has a "customer Service advisor" onboard
you hit something large which causes you injury, CSA has basic first aid, so no one dies

Next Step 10-20 years

No Driver, Computer has full control and has a "customer Service advisor" onboard, The Train hits something large which causes injuries to passengers, CSA has basic first aid, so no one dies BUT! as CSA has no idea where he is he has to hope the "computer" has informed the emergency services how many people are injured, the nature of the accident computer kaput, Emergency services take forever to arrive..People DIE

you have to love Progress

Good luck on that

each time you take something away that a "computer" can do the more everyone loses

and btw yorksdriver mate, you are the only driver I know who prefers there NOT to be a guard on board, your opinion of course but let me ask you this, is it a feeling of being in "control" that makes you feel good or the knowledge that if the worst was to happen you will have to rely on a poorly trained person (compared to a guard) to keep you and the passengers alive (just asking of course)

 

[thelem]

I am sure they'll be great at doing it 99.95% of the time - but it's the 0.05% of the time that will get all the headlines.

We all know planes can fly themselves pretty much all the time, yet most passengers won't want to fly on a plane without any crew. I am sure people may be a little unhappy with a train that is doing 100, 200 or 300mph without a driver.

And how often does a human get it right? There are already computers that can do jobs like this better than humans, and the technology is only improving.

 

[pt_mad]

They need another way of checking tickets rather than walking up the trains that for sure. There is no way everyone can be checked during journeys of five minutes or so.

I have travelled long return journeys on delayed trains both ways and nobody even comes to check so there could very well be fare evaders getting away with it freely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Next Step 10-20 years

No Driver, Computer has full control and has a "customer Service advisor" onboard, The Train hits something large which causes injuries to passengers, CSA has basic first aid, so no one dies BUT! as CSA has no idea where he is he has to hope the "computer" has informed the emergency services how many people are injured, the nature of the accident computer kaput, Emergency services take forever to arrive..People DIE

you have to love Progress

Good luck on that

each time you take something away that a "computer" can do the more everyone loses

But there would most likely be a CSA onboard that is capable of driving the train to safety. Like on Eurostar, there is one host that is capable of driving the train out of the tunnel.

Docklands light railway is already automated at times.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

They need another way of checking tickets rather than walking up the trains that for sure. There is no way everyone can be checked during journeys of five minutes or so.

I have travelled long return journeys on delayed trains both ways and nobody even comes to check so there could very well be fare evaders getting away with it freely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But there would most likely be a CSA onboard that is capable of driving the train to safety. Like on Eurostar, there is one host that is capable of driving the train out of the tunnel.

Docklands light railway is already automated at times.

from what I have heard on here the DLR is actually GOO (Guard only operation) Eurostar is a fair point however that is one type of Traction going over (I presume one route), the Average Driver/Guard signs numerous routes and traction.

 

[pt_mad]

Saying that, planes will probably always need a pilot so theres no reason a train won't always need a driver.

I think technology can scare all of us at times. Especially at the rate its going. But basically we have no choice, its here to stay so we may as well face it. :cry:

 

[pemma]

Are high peak fares supposed to be for all lines or just the highest flow routes?

Like on Eurostar, there is one host that is capable of driving the train out of the tunnel.

Is Eurostar not driver operated under normal circumstances then?

 

[pt_mad]

Are high peak fares supposed to be for all lines or just the highest flow routes?




Is Eurostar not driver operated under normal circumstances then?

Yup. Host backup driver is there if the driver becomes incapacitated.

 

[Squaddie]

Channel 4 News came up with an extraordinary comparison this evening.

You can buy a 12-month unlimited pass for German Railways for about £3,300 - or the same cost as an annual season between London and Brighton.

(I checked online, and it's true - €3,990 for 12 months unlimited travel in 2nd class).

That is a shocking indictment of Britain's rail network.