Any possibility of Carnforth station West Coast Mainline platforms re-opening?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Carnforth has connections to lines to Morecambe, Barrow, Carlisle, Leeds and Windermere, Oxenholme only has connections to Windermere. Surely this makes Carnforth a better place for intercity trains to stop.

Are there not already such trains of the type that you describe above that already serve Barrow, Carlisle and Leeds?

Morecambe and Windermere are already served by branch line services.

 

[deltic08]

The loops thing, I should have used the word "probably" in there, but the slowing of existing services and lack of capacity is often cited as a reason why the platforms are unlikely to be rebuilt.

Your solution in the latter paragraph would still require a southbound mainline platform which would be costly to link to the rest of the station. Of course all this is largely academic due to lack of demand.

You obviously haven't been to Carnforth. The missing southbound platform is the station entrance and doesn't need linking with the rest of the station. It is already linked by a closed doorway.
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Quite. A change at Lancaster is hardly a huge inconvenience, even if travelling from north of Carnforth.

No, not huge just an inconvenience.
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To be literal, possible.

However, Carnforth is unlikely to replace Oxenholme as a call, and short platforms would be cheaper than 11-car Pendolino ones, so it would most likely be served by Windermere services as these have a little more flexibility.

However, these turn left at Euxton just like the Barrows, so you haven't gained anything for the London-bound traveller.

The only gain is for a Carnforth - north traveller, who will save 16 journey miles; to me this is unlikely to generate the kind of benefits required to bring Carnforth (main line) back up to standard and re-open it.

In the good old days of my youth I could get a direct train from Windermere to London, Crewe (extended to Birmingham in the Summer), Manchester and Liverpool and they all stopped at Carnforth WCML platforms in both directions. This stopped with powerbox resignalling rationalisation in the early 1970s when the branch was choked by singling.

I can even remember the daily Club trains to Manchester and Liverpool where a full cooked breakfast was available in the dining car.

 

[DarloRich]

The issue is surely the delay to long distance services by creating stops: The needs of the many so to speak.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the good old days of my youth I could get a direct train from Windermere to London, Crewe (extended to Birmingham in the Summer), Manchester and Liverpool and they all stopped at Carnforth WCML platforms in both directions. This stopped with powerbox resignalling rationalisation in the early 1970s when the branch was choked by singling.

I bet it wasn't once an hour, though!

I'm starting to become increasingly of the view that the Windermere branch would be best converted to light rail, with a loop provided so the service could be increased to half-hourly with all intermediate stops on request, and continued on down the road to Bowness and possibly even long-term to Ambleside. Later services, running until around 2300 or certainly to connect with the last journey possibility from Euston or Manchester particularly on a Friday, would also be of benefit.

I think if that were done passenger numbers would potentially rocket. Far more so than the occasional through service to Manchester Airport or a twice a day run to London.

 

[deltic08]

Aren't the majority of Manchester - Scotland trains now six or eight carriages? Or have they stopped doubling up the 185/350s?

Good point. The one and only time I used a 350/4 from Manchester to Carlisle each way it was a single unit but yes 185s could be 2x3 cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good point. The one and only time I used a 350/4 from Manchester to Carlisle each way it was a single unit but yes 185s could be 2x3 cars.

No, the majority are not doubled up, AIUI.

 

[TheGrew]

I'm starting to become increasingly of the view that the Windermere branch would be best converted to light rail, with a loop provided so the service could be increased to half-hourly with all intermediate stops on request, and continued on down the road to Bowness and possibly even long-term to Ambleside. Later services, running until around 2300 or certainly to connect with the last journey possibility from Euston or Manchester particularly on a Friday, would also be of benefit.

I like that idea too, I think a tram through to Ambleside or even Keswick would be well used especially in the summer months. Not sure how well the overhead wires would go down with the locals though.

 

[adrock1976]

My thoughts on the possibility of reusing the main line platforms at Carnforth:

1) Elvis Presley faked his own death and is still alive and well

2) Tony Blair will be called to the International Courts of Justice to explain the 2003 Iraq invasion (this I would like to see)

3) My team Aston Villa to win the top flight division and win the European Cup within the next five years (it's nice to dream though)

All the above are more likely to happen before the mainline platforms are brought back into use.

But on a serious note, I believe it would be better to take a look at improving connections at Carnforth between the Barrow-in-Furness and Skipton routes. As mentioned upthread, the mainline platforms may be better served by Windermere services if the platforms are ever brought back into use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like that idea too, I think a tram through to Ambleside or even Keswick would be well used especially in the summer months. Not sure how well the overhead wires would go down with the locals though.

If it only went as far as Bowness it could run from batteries, charging while on the "mainline" to Oxenholme (and of course making heavy use of regen to charge the batteries from the downhill stretch to Bowness). For further along this would be more difficult though not completely impossible.

Going further...well, Wordsworth was the whole reason the WCML didn't just cut through the Lakes, wasn't he? But I bet he would have baulked even more at the sort of road traffic that presently blights the Park.

 

[najaB]

If it only went as far as Bowness it could run from batteries, charging while on the "mainline" to Oxenholme (and of course making heavy use of regen to charge the batteries from the downhill stretch to Bowness). For further along this would be more difficult though not completely impossible.

Inductive charging of super-capacitors in the station limits. It's been done for electric buses.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Inductive charging of super-capacitors in the station limits. It's been done for electric buses.

Off the shelf tech from Furrer+Frey with their Railbaar concept, alternatively Alstom has inductive underground 'catenary' available instead so no batteries, no charging, just regular electric trams.

There are some nice catenary designs available for 750V DC light rail - traditional cast iron style lamp standards and it's all much lower profile, so could easily be made to fit in with the surroundings.

 

[deltic08]

I bet it wasn't once an hour, though!

I'm starting to become increasingly of the view that the Windermere branch would be best converted to light rail, with a loop provided so the service could be increased to half-hourly with all intermediate stops on request, and continued on down the road to Bowness and possibly even long-term to Ambleside. Later services, running until around 2300 or certainly to connect with the last journey possibility from Euston or Manchester particularly on a Friday, would also be of benefit.

I think if that were done passenger numbers would potentially rocket. Far more so than the occasional through service to Manchester Airport or a twice a day run to London.

Certainly wasn't but one or two a day seemed adequate then.

What a brilliant idea. A loop at say Staveley and extend to Ambleside but not stop there. Go beyond Ambleside to Rydal, Grasmere for the millions each year who flock to Dove Cottage, over Dunmail Raise summit to Thirlmere for those who want to climb Helvellyn then Threlkeld to meet the reopened Penrith-Keswick-Workington line. That would connect Dove Cottage and Wordworths birthplace at Cockermouth by the same train. I wish I had thought of that.

Oh I did on the thread about reinstating Penrith-Keswick.

That was the original plan but Wordsworth and his chums stopped the line at Windermere as he didn't want a railway anywhere near his beloved Grasmere.

The railway along Thirlmere would be open to-day whereas the A591 at this point has been washed away by the recent floods and unlikely to be reopened for some time.

One of my earliest recollections is stopping at the level crossing gates at Staveley for a train to pass Christmas Eve about 1954 when the A591 Kendal-Keswick road passed through the village.

We had decided to travel from the West Country by car to my maternal grandparents in Workington as a family instead of just my mother and myself travelling up by train. There had been heavy falls of snow on the way up on pre motorway A roads and it was dark when we reached Staveley. A train rushed through in the darkness towards Oxenholme with either a Royal Scot or Patriot on the front and red coaches. I thought this was the WCML as I was not old enough to know better. I knew we went by train close to the Lake District to reach Workington and the journey so far had taken a whole day as it did by train.

Smoke deflectors also stuck in my mind and only later did I deduce it was a Royal Scot or Patriot from my Ian Allen book that I bought in 1959. They weren't in my 1957 Western Region book. Duchesses would be unlikely on a branchline and probably too long for the turntable at Windermere.

That 'picture' is just as vivid now as it was 65 years ago.
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Off the shelf tech from Furrer+Frey with their Railbaar concept, alternatively Alstom has inductive underground 'catenary' available instead so no batteries, no charging, just regular electric trams.

There are some nice catenary designs available for 750V DC light rail - traditional cast iron style lamp standards and it's all much lower profile, so could easily be made to fit in with the surroundings.

Even if constructed for heavy rail they should be no worse than through the Lune Gorge and over Shap. Compared to the parallel M6 they are invisible.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. There seem to be many places on the AC network where catenary has been sympathetically designed to fit in with the landscape. I'd rather Windermere was done as an add on with through trains to Lancaster increased.

 

[The Ham]

3) My team Aston Villa to win the top flight division and win the European Cup within the next five years (it's nice to dream though)

Although if you ever tried to get tickets to watch it live "supporters" like David Cameron would have brought up all the tickets before you had chance to!

 

[HowardGWR]

Although if you ever tried to get tickets to watch it live "supporters" like David Cameron would have brought up all the tickets before you had chance to!

Nah, he watches West Burnley Villa.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Carnforth has connections to lines to Morecambe, Barrow, Carlisle, Leeds and Windermere, Oxenholme only has connections to Windermere. Surely this makes Carnforth a better place for intercity trains to stop.

Why when those Intercity trains already stop at Lancaster?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Carnforth has connections to lines to Morecambe, Barrow, Carlisle, Leeds and Windermere, Oxenholme only has connections to Windermere. Surely this makes Carnforth a better place for intercity trains to stop.

That is utter fantasy. It is very unlikely the main line platforms will open and be served by TPE services, but suggesting Anglo-Scottish InterCity services could and should stop at Carnforth is one of the most outlandish things I've read on a rail internet forum, and most forums are full of strange suggestions.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I like that idea too, I think a tram through to Ambleside or even Keswick would be well used especially in the summer months. Not sure how well the overhead wires would go down with the locals though.

Have you ever been to the Lake District? How on earth would you get a tram up to Keswick past Grasmere? Not even the Victorian rail builders thought that was worth taking on!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you ever been to the Lake District? How on earth would you get a tram up to Keswick past Grasmere?

An awful lot more easily than a regular train! But I wouldn't propose going that far - a coordinated network of buses could connect to further away parts. I'm just thinking of a possibly viable way to make the Windermere branch both more useful and more economic to operate.

 

[RichmondCommu]

An awful lot more easily than a regular train! But I wouldn't propose going that far - a coordinated network of buses could connect to further away parts. I'm just thinking of a possibly viable way to make the Windermere branch both more useful and more economic to operate.

I concur but you would still be asking an awful lot of the traction motors for what is a long and relentless climb. It's worth noting here that the class 506's were not powerful enough to get over the Woodhead route.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

You would still be asking an awful lot of the traction motors for what is a long and relentless climb.

AC traction motors will put up with any amount of abuse, won't be a problem at all for them. DC motors I'd be more concerned about though, but you wouldn't be ordering anything with DC traction motors these days.

 

[TheGrew]

Have you ever been to the Lake District? How on earth would you get a tram up to Keswick past Grasmere? Not even the Victorian rail builders thought that was worth taking on!

I have though must admit I am not familiar with the topography in that particular area. I assumed some on road running on the A road linking them would work with the exception of the grasmere kink.

 

[RichmondCommu]

AC traction motors will put up with any amount of abuse, won't be a problem at all for them. DC motors I'd be more concerned about though, but you wouldn't be ordering anything with DC traction motors these days.

In that case are the Rotherham tram / trains going to be using AC traction motors?
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I have though must admit I am not familiar with the topography in that particular area. I assumed some on road running on the A road linking them would work with the exception of the grasmere kink.

However your still looking at some whacking great inclines between Ambleside and Keswick.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I concur but you would still be asking an awful lot of the traction motors for what is a long and relentless climb.

You just need appropriate traction motors. Switzerland has been using electric traction on mountainous routes, some of them rack railways, for years before the UK had even thought of electrifying much more than the Southern.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You just need appropriate traction motors. Switzerland has been using electric traction on mountainous routes, some of them rack railways, for years before the UK had even thought of electrifying much more than the Southern.

Yes I know about the Swiss rack railways but is this what 'we' are now proposing for the 'Lakes? And at what cost?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

In that case are the Rotherham tram / trains going to be using AC traction motors?

From Vossloh

The train-tram is powered by six asynchronous, four-pole, three-phase AC motors for continuous power and torque output.

 

[QueensCurve]

I'd estimate the chances as being somewhere between slim and none. Is there a untapped demand for services to stop there?

These platforms were demolished at the time of electrification in the early 70s. This presumably reflected the desire to get speeds up for the longer distance services unfettered by stopping trains.

If you were connecting between South Cumbria and the WCML North, the connection via Lancaster is a relatively short additional journey time and there are more station facilities available.

It crossed my mind that, if there was a justification for Carnforth Calls, these could perhaps be facilitated by a single track chord between the Leeds line and the WCML.

To see Carnforth Station in days of yore see Brief Encounter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I know about the Swiss rack railways but is this what 'we' are now proposing for the 'Lakes? And at what cost?

No, I'm not - my point related only to the comment about whether traction motors were up to it, to which my point was that the appropriate selection of traction motor will be.

 

[al green]

It crossed my mind that, if there was a justification for Carnforth Calls, these could perhaps be facilitated by a single track chord between the Leeds line and the WCML.
.

As I suggested a couple of days ago.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However your still looking at some whacking great inclines between Ambleside and Keswick.

Is that the same area above where the recent weather conditions have made the area roads impassable now in places with sections being washed away?