Anytime to offpeak transition

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orpine

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So, I get an 09:00 FGW - the first offpeak train on the route for the day.
But at 09:00 today a (late) XC turns up instead. The journey length on both trains is about the same (give or take a couple of minutes)
Is my offpeak ticket valid on the XC? From a passenger's perspective it makes sense it is - it's the same journey at the same time.

Further question - what if rather than a late XC, a late-FGW turns up instead?
 
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leymoo

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So, I get an 09:00 FGW - the first offpeak train on the route for the day.
But at 09:00 today a (late) XC turns up instead. The journey length on both trains is about the same (give or take a couple of minutes)
Is my offpeak ticket valid on the XC? From a passenger's perspective it makes sense it is - it's the same journey at the same time.

Further question - what if rather than a late XC, a late-FGW turns up instead?

My understanding is that it's when the train is scheduled to depart, not when it actually departs.* So that 8:55 which often didn't turn up until past 9 I was not allowed to use my off peak day on :(

I don't think the TOC affects the answer here.

* There's some discretion usually made if the train is 30mins or more late and leading to arrival times past 10am at the station or similar. But that can't be guaranteed.
 
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yorkie

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What ticket would you have? Where is this hypothetical journey from & to?
 

hairyhandedfool

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So, I get an 09:00 FGW - the first offpeak train on the route for the day.
But at 09:00 today a (late) XC turns up instead. The journey length on both trains is about the same (give or take a couple of minutes)
Is my offpeak ticket valid on the XC? From a passenger's perspective it makes sense it is - it's the same journey at the same time.

Further question - what if rather than a late XC, a late-FGW turns up instead?

Depends on what the ticket restriction actually says.
 

anme

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If you're travelling on Oyster or contactless, then yes (i.e. it's the time of the check in that counts, not the train). However, this isn't fully relevant for your example as Cross Country don't operate in the London area.
 

krus_aragon

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Depends on what the ticket restriction actually says.
Yes. Some ticket restrictions will state (e.g.) "not valid before 09:00", while others will state "not valid on trains scheduled to depart before 09:00“. If its the latter, your ticket doesn't become valid when the train runs late, as the restriction is based on the intended departure time.

One of XC's more common off-peak restrictions, 2V, uses the latter style, so if you have one of those tickets you'll have to wait. But XC tend to price (and set restrictions on) longer distance tickets. If you're using a ticket priced by another company such as GWR, you may be entitled to board that late-running XC train, depending on how they (GWR) phrased the restrictions.

Gosh, isn't ticket simplification wonderful! :/
 

orpine

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Well, the ticket has this restriction:
"Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before
09:00"

So according to the rules, I can get any train that leaves the station at or after 09:00.
I look forward to the inevitable arguments and penalty fare appeals with ticket inspectors who have a different understanding... :-/

Silly question - how is a passenger supposed to know this? I spent several minutes googling, and then eventually looked in this forums very own guide which had brfares in it (I'd forgotten the site name).
The NR website doesn't tell you even though it has a "Your ticket summary" section (which was useless). Nor have I heard/seen it mentioned during the announcements.
 

yorkie

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Well, the ticket has this restriction:
"Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before
09:00"

So according to the rules, I can get any train that leaves the station at or after 09:00.
I look forward to the inevitable arguments and penalty fare appeals with ticket inspectors who have a different understanding... :-/
Penalty Fare appeal? That'd be guaranteed to succeed, as at worst it would be an excess!
 

hairyhandedfool

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Firstly, "timed to depart" refers to the timetabled departure time not the actual departure time.

Secondly, you can ask a member of ticket office staff.

Thirdly, NRES has a journey planner that can link you to the restriction codes (click on "other tickets", then in the ticket summary click on the ticket type selected, then scroll to the bottom and under "restrictions" is a link to the exact restriction code).

Fourthly, announcements are no good for ticket validity as different journeys and ticket types have different restrictions.
 

DaveNewcastle

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"Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before
09:00"

So according to the rules, I can get any train that leaves the station at or after 09:00.
But that interpretation is NOT what the quoted wording says!

It says it's NOT valid on trains which are TIMED TO DEPART before 9:00am. So if a train TIMED TO DEPART shortly before 9 arrives a little late, just after 9, then your off-peak ticket is still NOT valid.
 

talldave

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In contrast I'd say C0 tickets are valid on late running trains.
 

yorkie

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Well, the ticket has this restriction:
"Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before
09:00"

So according to the rules, I can get any train that leaves the station at or after 09:00.
Any train timed to.

In practice, if a train is timed to depart before 09:00, you may still be allowed to board it, depending on the circumstances. This is perhaps more likely where the station staff work for the train company whose train you wish to use, and considerably more likely if the first valid train after 0900 is delayed.

Failing that, ask the Guard (if there is one, and if you can find them) before boarding.
 

orpine

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Ok, seems I mis-read that.
So technically if that same train were to roll up at 11am being over 2hrs later, almost no-one would be allowed to board it?
 

30907

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DaveNewcastle

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30907

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. . . . and where the current link to check Restriction codes was provided by OwlMan :

Which is fine if you know the restriction code, or it is printed on the ticket, but not otherwise.

PS Response from NRE to my query yesterday:

....I'm sorry to hear that you were unable to check the restriction of your ticket on our website. I would like to inform you that the issue you’ve raised about our website is a known issue. I’m pleased to inform you that our Website Team is working hard to resolve this error as soon as possible.
 
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MedwayValiant

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"Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:00"

That is sufficiently badly worded that you might be able to argue the point.

It is intended to mean "not valid on trains timed to depart between 0429 and 0859", but that's not actually what it says. There is an argument which says that you could read it as meaning that once it's 0900, you can use any train regardless of its scheduled departure time. You'd be catching a [train timed to depart after 0429] but it wouldn't be [and before 0900], so you could do it.

I certainly wouldn't recommend that you actually do this, but there is a kind of lawyer who might try it.
 

yorkie

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I agree there is an argument that oe is valid from 0900, If in the situation where it's refused I would pay the excess under protest and immediately contest it. Don't refuse to pay unless you are prepared to go to court over it.
 

najaB

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That is sufficiently badly worded that you might be able to argue the point.
I think that it would be risky to try that argument. If it said "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 or before 09:00" I'd agree with you, but "and" tightly binds the two clauses together.
 

hairyhandedfool

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If the restriction was "not valid to depart between 0430 and 0859 inclusive" you'd have a good case for using it on a delayed train, but the restriction specifies trains "timed to depart" and so I would not recommend arguing the case in court, or even on the train to be honest.
 

greatkingrat

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I'm not sure any TOC would want to take it to court anyway. I can just imagine the headline "TOC FINES PASSENGER BECAUSE TRAIN IS LATE".
 

yorkie

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I'm not sure any TOC would want to take it to court anyway. I can just imagine the headline "TOC FINES PASSENGER BECAUSE TRAIN IS LATE".
I agree, it's also the sort of thing the TOCs don't want testing.
 

miami

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That is sufficiently badly worded that you might be able to argue the point.

It is intended to mean "not valid on trains timed to depart between 0429 and 0859", but that's not actually what it says. There is an argument which says that you could read it as meaning that once it's 0900, you can use any train regardless of its scheduled departure time. You'd be catching a [train timed to depart after 0429] but it wouldn't be [and before 0900], so you could do it.

I certainly wouldn't recommend that you actually do this, but there is a kind of lawyer who might try it.

Perhaps it means
* not valid in any train timed to depart after 0429
and
* not valid before 0900

As all trains fit into one of those statements (the 11.30 departs after 0429), perhaps the ticket isn't valid on any train :)
 
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