App payment delay

[Gemma c]

Me and my partner traveled from Saltaire to Steeton . We boarded at saltaire whilst buying tickets on an app sat down and the guard came almost immediately, I showed him the app with the payment going through, he asked us to buy a ticket from him I asked why when payment was going through? He said you will have to get off at the next station then. He walked off , payment went through ( screen shots of times taken) we were made to leave at Bingley, we complained, now we have a letter asking for our version as with reference to contravention of railway regulations. From debt recovery department.
We have bought tickets like this numerous times and had no issues with guards. Any advice would be appreciated

 

[Bletchleyite]

If using an app you must purchase the tickets BEFORE you board the train. If you don't, the guard or any RPI is correct to treat you as holding no ticket.

It seems that unfortunately complaining about being hard done by when you were actually breaking the rules is now likely to land you in Court, or at best with an expensive out of court settlement (typically £100+).

There is a good reason for this - fare dodgers will buy when they see an inspector coming but not otherwise. So buying after boarding can't be allowed.

 

[Gemma c]

If using an app you must purchase the tickets BEFORE you board the train. If you don't, the guard or any RPI is correct to treat you as holding no ticket.

It seems that unfortunately complaining about being hard done by when you were actually breaking the rules is now likely to land you in Court, or at best with an expensive out of court settlement (typically £100+).

There is a good reason for this - fare dodgers will buy when they see an inspector coming but not otherwise. So buying after boarding can't be allowed.

Yeh I get that but payment was going through before the guard came, if we wanted to do that why would we get on where the guard was

 

[_toommm_]

Yeh I get that but payment was going through before the guard came, if we wanted to do that why would we get on where the guard was

It’s a fairly common trick upon fare dodgers (not to say that you are a fare dodger) to buy a ticket on their phone when they see the guard coming down, in the hope that the ticket is available to show before the guard reaches them. Sounds like the guard has took that interpretation to your case, as they don’t know when the payment started going through.

As Bletchleyite said, you need to buy before you board, whether that be from a ticket machine, ticket office, or on your phone. Hopefully this will be an (expensive) lesson for you.

 

[RPI]

Our machines also now tell us if the ticket was bought after departure when we scan it

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeh I get that but payment was going through before the guard came, if we wanted to do that why would we get on where the guard was

You must have fully completed the purchase before you board the train. Not just before someone checks it.

For clarity, that means before you pass through the doors, not just afterwards. It is your responsibility to leave enough time to do this.

In practice if boarding at a terminus and the train would be there for a while I doubt anyone would care if you took a seat and did it then, but you'd always need to be ready to step off if the transaction hadn't completed by departure time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Our machines also now tell us if the ticket was bought after departure when we scan it

What's your approach to that, out of interest, i.e. would you always write up for prosecution or only if it was way after or clearly after you'd started checking?

SBB (Switzerland) are totally strict on it - even one minute after = CHF100 (about £70 at the moment) penalty.

 

[RPI]

What's your approach to that, out of interest, i.e. would you always write up for prosecution or only if it was way after or clearly after you'd started checking?

SBB (Switzerland) are totally strict on it - even one minute after = CHF100 penalty.

Depends, an example i had someone do that from Copplestone the other day, they were going to Exeter Central and back and they couldn't have bought a ticket from the station before hand so I had no reason to think they were extracting the urine, its a case of judge each incident individually. The main issue i have is when people do it to short offer (I.e. I'd see them get on at station A, when I get to them they're buying a ticket from B to C) thats when a further conversation takes place and their booking history gets investigated

 

[AlterEgo]

Having a ticket in the basket on the app and pressing “purchase” only when you see the guard coming is Fare Evasion 2.0.

You must buy before you board, I’m afraid, especially as you boarded at a station with a ticket machine.

 

[island]

Me and my partner traveled from Saltaire to Steeton . We boarded at saltaire whilst buying tickets on an app sat down and the guard came almost immediately, I showed him the app with the payment going through, he asked us to buy a ticket from him I asked why when payment was going through? He said you will have to get off at the next station then. He walked off , payment went through ( screen shots of times taken) we were made to leave at Bingley, we complained, now we have a letter asking for our version as with reference to contravention of railway regulations. From debt recovery department.
We have bought tickets like this numerous times and had no issues with guards. Any advice would be appreciated

The guard was in the right.

Boarding a train without a ticket is a criminal offence. Saltaire station has a ticket machine which you could also have used.

 

[gray1404]

This is the first time I've heard of a customer contacting customer service but then passing the details onto prosecutions. The OP never provided their details for that purpose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the first time I've heard of a customer contacting customer service but then passing the details onto prosecutions. The OP never provided their details for that purpose.

Prosecuting a criminal offence is one of the legitimate interest bases under GDPR.

 

[Cdd89]

A variant on this that happened to me a while back:

1. Boarded train with Day Single e-ticket from Cambridge to London
2. In the event boarded a Greater Anglia service, so bought a replacement Day Single e-ticket for the full journey shortly after departure, restricted to GA
3. Refunded the original ticket (it was in the pandemic-related free refund period) and used the GA ticket at Liverpool Street.

I left wondering whether that was fully beyond reproach…

 

[Starmill]

An attempt to prosecute over an incident with no witness statements sounds to me like it's bound to fail.

The company may be able to get one after the fact from the guard but if they wrote down nothing at the time it seems extremely unlikely.

Unless you literally incriminated yourself in your complaint you probably don't have anything to worry about here. You can just reply stating that your fare was paid and at no point did you try avoid paying it. They can then attempt to accuse you of the offence of failure to show a valid ticket but good luck on that with no witness statements!

Perhaps review precisely what you have written in your complaint and consider if it's good evidence that you've committed an offence. You may need to get legal advice on that point.

 

[Gemma c]

The guard was in the right.

Boarding a train without a ticket is a criminal offence. Saltaire station has a ticket machine which you could also have used.

That’s all well and good, as long as they are consistent, if boarding a train without a ticket is an offence why sell tickets on the train? Also I have photos of one morning travelling to Leeds of a sign which said tickets not available to buy at this station, I traveled all the way to Leeds without a ticket, long line waiting for tickets to get out of the station, I approached a member of staff with payment and was told, I’ll get them to let you through, to which he did! Inconsistent!

 

[Starmill]

That’s all well and good, as long as they are consistent, if boarding a train without a ticket is an offence why sell tickets on the train? Also I have photos of one morning travelling to Leeds of a sign which said tickets not available to buy at this station, I traveled all the way to Leeds without a ticket, long line waiting for tickets to get out of the station, I approached a member of staff with payment and was told, I’ll get them to let you through, to which he did! Inconsistent!

It's highly inconsistent, you're correct. However that's pretty much irrelevant when considering the specific question are you guilty of the offence of failure to show a ticket.

The offence isn't boarding a train ticketlessly, it is either not showing a valid ticket when asked or trying to avoid paying the fare.

What you should have done in my view is paid the guard when they offered this to you.

A variant on this that happened to me a while back:

1. Boarded train with Day Single e-ticket from Cambridge to London
2. In the event boarded a Greater Anglia service, so bought a replacement Day Single e-ticket for the full journey shortly after departure, restricted to GA
3. Refunded the original ticket (it was in the pandemic-related free refund period) and used the GA ticket at Liverpool Street.

I left wondering whether that was fully beyond reproach…

I definitely wouldn't do that again I don't think. However, as you have ultimately paid your fare there's no debt owed to the company. If you're not asked to show a ticket, you can't be guilty of not showing a ticket. The purchase of two tickets suggests strongly to me that there's good evidence to refute any accusation of trying to avoid paying the fare due.

So it's very difficult to see an actual problem.

 

[island]

A variant on this that happened to me a while back:

1. Boarded train with Day Single e-ticket from Cambridge to London
2. In the event boarded a Greater Anglia service, so bought a replacement Day Single e-ticket for the full journey shortly after departure, restricted to GA
3. Refunded the original ticket (it was in the pandemic-related free refund period) and used the GA ticket at Liverpool Street.

I left wondering whether that was fully beyond reproach…

I do not see that any offence has been committed here.

It's highly inconsistent, you're correct. However that's pretty much irrelevant when considering the specific question are you guilty of the offence of failure to show a ticket.

The offence isn't boarding a train ticketlessly, it is either not showing a valid ticket when asked or trying to avoid paying the fare.

To be clear, boarding a train without a ticket is an offence, unless one of the defences such as no working ticket facilities, permission from staff, etc. applies. I'm not sure at this moment in time whether that is the offence this particular traveller is being accused of, though.

That’s all well and good, as long as they are consistent, if boarding a train without a ticket is an offence why sell tickets on the train? Also I have photos of one morning travelling to Leeds of a sign which said tickets not available to buy at this station, I traveled all the way to Leeds without a ticket, long line waiting for tickets to get out of the station, I approached a member of staff with payment and was told, I’ll get them to let you through, to which he did! Inconsistent!

The railway is not under a legal obligation to be consistent, and in my view it would not be sensible for everyone to be treated completely consistently. There are often reasons not to fully enforce the rules against everyone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A variant on this that happened to me a while back:

1. Boarded train with Day Single e-ticket from Cambridge to London
2. In the event boarded a Greater Anglia service, so bought a replacement Day Single e-ticket for the full journey shortly after departure, restricted to GA
3. Refunded the original ticket (it was in the pandemic-related free refund period) and used the GA ticket at Liverpool Street.

I left wondering whether that was fully beyond reproach…

Not officially allowed, no, and likely to raise suspicions. Also undermines the purpose and price of interavailable tickets so you can be sure the railway won't want it to happen.

 

[Haywain]

A variant on this that happened to me a while back:

1. Boarded train with Day Single e-ticket from Cambridge to London
2. In the event boarded a Greater Anglia service, so bought a replacement Day Single e-ticket for the full journey shortly after departure, restricted to GA
3. Refunded the original ticket (it was in the pandemic-related free refund period) and used the GA ticket at Liverpool Street.

Refunding a ticket that has been used to enter a station and board a train could be seen as incorrect, and potentially fraudulent, behaviour. As is buying a ticket online after the departure of the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Refunding a ticket that has been used to enter a station and board a train could be seen as incorrect, and potentially fraudulent, behaviour. As is buying a ticket online after the departure of the train.

Indeed. Even if done in all innocence it's hard to see many things that would have more chance of being misinterpreted and thus resulting in a fraud charge, which is what the TOCs seem to be pursuing over people refunding used tickets (and the first ticket is used because the OP boarded a train with it). The impact on your life of a fraud charge would be massive, far worse than a Byelaw conviction (basically just the fine) or RoRA (very minor recorded offence that would be ignored in most contexts plus the fine). Many if not most banks refuse accounts or any form of credit to fraud convicts. Not a risk you want to take.

So however innocent, this is not a sensible thing to do.

 

[WesternLancer]

An attempt to prosecute over an incident with no witness statements sounds to me like it's bound to fail.

The company may be able to get one after the fact from the guard but if they wrote down nothing at the time it seems extremely unlikely.

Unless you literally incriminated yourself in your complaint you probably don't have anything to worry about here. You can just reply stating that your fare was paid and at no point did you try avoid paying it. They can then attempt to accuse you of the offence of failure to show a valid ticket but good luck on that with no witness statements!

Perhaps review precisely what you have written in your complaint and consider if it's good evidence that you've committed an offence. You may need to get legal advice on that point.

I think this is very good advice ref this case.

 

[Cdd89]

Refunding a ticket that has been used to enter a station and board a train could be seen as incorrect, and potentially fraudulent, behaviour

I thought the same in the end. Fortunately (?) the question of whether to do it again is a moot point, since refund admin fees wipe away any saving.

 

[Gemma c]

An attempt to prosecute over an incident with no witness statements sounds to me like it's bound to fail.

The company may be able to get one after the fact from the guard but if they wrote down nothing at the time it seems extremely unlikely.

Unless you literally incriminated yourself in your complaint you probably don't have anything to worry about here. You can just reply stating that your fare was paid and at no point did you try avoid paying it. They can then attempt to accuse you of the offence of failure to show a valid ticket but good luck on that with no witness statements!

Perhaps review precisely what you have written in your complaint and consider if it's good evidence that you've committed an offence. You may need to get legal advice on that point.

 

[robbeech]

Our machines also now tell us if the ticket was bought after departure when we scan it

Without wishing to veer off topic. This is excellent news, providing it works as it should of course and common sense is still applied.

 

[Bluejays]

I'm wondering if a report did go in from the guard, op seems to have quite an 'abrasive' method of communication. Guard may well have put in a report at the time, either to revenue or their manager. Complaint gets made in similarly abrasive manner and things get linked up.

If you're going to use the app, why would you not use it before boarding?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm wondering if a report did go in from the guard, op seems to have quite an 'abrasive' method of communication. Guard may well have put in a report at the time, either to revenue or their manager. Complaint gets made in similarly abrasive manner and things get linked up.

If you're going to use the app, why would you not use it before boarding?

Possibly if in a massive rush, but in most cases because of opportunistic fare evasion.

 

[Gemma c]

I think this is very good advice ref this

Having a ticket in the basket on the app and pressing “purchase” only when you see the guard coming is Fare Evasion 2.0.

You must buy before you board, I’m afraid, especially as you boarded at a station with a ticket machine.

My partner did not do this he tried to buy a ticket before boarding the train and has screen shots with times on of the payment been rejected 3 times before it went through

 

[WesternLancer]

My partner did not do this he tried to buy a ticket before boarding the train and has screen shots with times on of the payment been rejected 3 times before it went through

Right - in that case I think you have grounds to pursue it with customer services and ultimately the ombudsman if you made reasonable attempt to buy tickets before boarding (and you have some proof of that via the screen shots) but the phone or machine would not work properly in the time you had available.

If you have not yet responded to the letter from the railway / dept recovery section (can you post a copy of it?) this should be the nub of your response to that.

It may not work because the rule is you have to have a valid ticket before you board (and there are plenty of signs at stations that say this usually), because the ability to pay on board is being phased out at most places - and they may simply say it is not their fault that your phone would not process the payment in time, but you can make a clear argument that you had every intention to pay and were trying to do so.

Also did you try any alternative payment method at the station before boarding the train - eg a ticket machine - when the phone payment method would not work?

I'm reverting to cash for a lot of transactions myself as it happens, too annoyed by electronic payment systems that don't work fast when I need them to....tho lass behind bar in pub last week who was unable to work out how to work out and give change of £3.50 from a £10 note was not a promising pointer to the future...

 

[AlterEgo]

The OP has no recourse. They walked onto a train and passed up an opportunity to pay. If the payment doesn’t go through on the app and there’s a working ticket machine the offence is complete, I’m afraid.


The OP has already pursued this with customer services, so if they reach deadlock then they can certainly go to the Ombudsman. However the Ombudsman does not have the authority to order a train company to discontinue a prosecution or authorisation to prosecute, which, unfortunately, looks to have been a legitimate action here.

 

[skyhigh]

They walked onto a train and passed up an opportunity to pay. If the payment doesn’t go through on the app and there’s a working ticket machine the offence is complete, I’m afraid.

For what it's worth, for anyone who is unfamiliar with Saltaire, there is a ticket machine clearly placed at the entrance to the Skipton bound platform.