App payment delay

[island]

My partner did not do this he tried to buy a ticket before boarding the train and has screen shots with times on of the payment been rejected 3 times before it went through

The requirement is to buy a ticket before boarding, not "try to".

If his payment "didn't go through", he would have needed to buy a ticket at the ticket machine.

 

[Gemma c]

Me and my partner traveled from Saltaire to Steeton . We boarded at saltaire whilst buying tickets on an app sat down and the guard came almost immediately, I showed him the app with the payment going through, he asked us to buy a ticket from him I asked why when payment was going through? He said you will have to get off at the next station then. He walked off , payment went through ( screen shots of times taken) we were made to leave at Bingley, we complained, now we have a letter asking for our version as with reference to contravention of railway regulations. From debt recovery department.
We have bought tickets like this numerous times and had no issues with guards. Any advice would be appreciated

To add another thing, why was there A massive increase of price of 140% to which the guard wanted? Is this not a breach of the consumer act? On pressurise selling? At exesive price. A case currently going on in the south of England?

To add another thing, why was there A massive increase of price of 140% to which the guard wanted? Is this not a breach of the consumer act? On pressurise selling? At exesive price. A case currently going on in the south of England?

Also under the consumer act 2015 anything said or written down by a train company or someone acting on their behalf ( guard) forms a contract? Also states a reasonable price to pay, I doubt a 140% increase would be seen as reasonable?

 

[skyhigh]

To add another thing, why was there A massive increase of price of 140% to which the guard wanted? Is this not a breach of the consumer act? On pressurise selling? At exesive price. A case currently going on in the south of England?

I suspect you were trying to buy discounted Advance tickets on the app, which provide a discount for selecting a fixed train to travel on when you purchase up until a set time before travel. If you do not buy a ticket when there are available facilities at a station, e.g. the ticket machine at Saltaire, the conductor is entitled to only sell an undiscounted Anytime Single on board under Part B Conditions 6 and 9 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

It is not a breach of the 'consumer act', pressure selling or anything to do with the matter going on in the south of England.

 

[Gemma c]

For what it's worth, for anyone who is unfamiliar with Saltaire, there is a ticket machine clearly placed at the entrance to the Skipton bound platform.

And the 140% increase in price ? Consumer rights act 2015?

 

[skyhigh]

And the 140% increase in price ? Consumer rights act 2015?

See my post above.

Actually, looking at it I can't see any Advance tickets from Saltaire to Steeton and Silsden. What tickets did you buy on the app, and what did the conductor want to sell you? I can't see any combination of tickets that could bring a 140% increase in price

 

[Gemma c]

To add another thing, why was there A massive increase of price of 140% to which the guard wanted? Is this not a breach of the consumer act? On pressurise selling? At exesive price. A case currently going on in the south of England?


Also under the consumer act 2015 anything said or written down by a train company or someone acting on their behalf ( guard) forms a contract? Also states a reasonable price to pay, I doubt a 140% increase would be seen as reasonable?

And this targets the most vulnerable people in society who can not affor to pay more!

 

[Haywain]

This isn’t about ticket price, it’s about the price of not having a ticket and keeping it out of court after declining an opportunity to put things right. Harsh but far from breaching any consumer rights act.

 

[AlterEgo]

And the 140% increase in price ? Consumer rights act 2015?

I really do not recommend going down this avenue, not least because your argument makes no sense.

If you had just accepted the guard was within their rights to ask you, a ticketless passenger, to leave the train in the first instance, none of this would have happened. It is not difficult to see how the situation has escalated to the point where the company have decided to authorise a prosecution.

Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, you committed an offence by boarding a train without a ticket at a station which had ticket facilities. Everything else is immaterial, and the only sensible advice is to settle the matter.

 

[Gemma c]

I really do not recommend going down this avenue, not least because your argument makes no sense.

If you had just accepted the guard was within their rights to ask you, a ticketless passenger, to leave the train in the first instance, none of this would have happened. It is not difficult to see how the situation has escalated to the point where the company have decided to authorise a prosecution.

Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, you committed an offence by boarding a train without a ticket at a station which had ticket facilities. Everything else is immaterial, and the only sensible advice is to settle the matter.

On another issue,people have the right to remain silent under U.K. law, not respond , say nothing, ? This is not stated in the letter? If it is a lost cause saying nothing is the best option?

On another issue,people have the right to remain silent under U.K. law, not respond , say nothing, ? This is not stated in the letter? If it is a lost cause saying nothing is the best option?

And this is assuming Northern Rail and it’s employees acted within the law?

 

[skyhigh]

And this is assuming Northern Rail and it’s employees acted within the law?

Which law exactly do you think they broke?

If it is a lost cause saying nothing is the best option?

The best course of action is to reply to the letter, apologise, make it clear that it won't happen again and that you'll pay their costs to resolve the matter. If you don't engage it will simply go straight to court.

 

[gray1404]

Gemma, I think you need to realise that people here are trying their best to help you but you are not presenting yourself in the best light. If you displayed this tone on the day of travel and/or in your complaint afterwards it may have some bearing as to why the train company is considering taking you to court. You have 2 options open to you now, like it or not, they are: -

1. Respond to the letter apologising for what happened and admitting your mistake, assuring Northern that you shall purchase a ticket before you board the train in future and offer to pay their costs involved in dealing with this matter.

2. Do nothing and risk being taken to court by Northern, being convicted possibly ending up with the criminal record and receive a fine much higher then if Northern were to offer you an out of court settlement.

It is time now to either deal with this or not. Any grievance you may have with the railway system is, quite frankly, a moot point. Time to get serious now and deal with this. I would strongly advise you take option 1 above.

I am also curious to know, have both you and your partner received letters from Northern or just yourself?

 

[AlterEgo]

On another issue,people have the right to remain silent under U.K. law, not respond , say nothing, ? This is not stated in the letter? If it is a lost cause saying nothing is the best option?

You must be cautioned (“you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if…”) if you are being interviewed under the guises of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE). A letter is not an interview, and at no point does it appear you have been interviewed under caution.

Not responding to the letter would be incredibly daft, as the advice in the rest of this thread shows.

 

[Gemma c]

Which law exactly do you think they broke?

The best course of action is to reply to the letter, apologise, make it clear that it won't happen again and that you'll pay their costs to resolve the matter. If you don't engage it will simply go straight to court.

Would that be such a bad thing? Try get to crown court where a judgment would be in law, maybe an end to corrupt practices?

 

[gray1404]

Would that be such a bad thing? Try get to crown court where a judgment would be in law, maybe an end to corrupt practices?

You really are not understanding this are you. If Northern take you to Court it is highly likely you will be found guilty. You clearly broke the law. It will also be the Magistrates Court dealing with it, not the Crown Court. You should be doing all you can right now to avoid this matter going to Court.

 

[Gemma c]

Would that be such a bad thing? Try get to crown court where a judgment would be in law, maybe an end to corrupt practices?

Don’t want to say too much on here with regards to consumer law as cases are going on, and maybe there will be a judgment which will then be incorporated into law?

You really are not understanding this are you. If Northern take you to Court it is highly likely you will be found guilty. You clearly broke the law. It will also be the Magistrates Court dealing with it, not the Crown Court. You should be doing all you can right now to avoid this matter going to Court.

Maybe you don’t fully understand the law? Just a question.

 

[skyhigh]

Would that be such a bad thing? Try get to crown court where a judgment would be in law, maybe an end to corrupt practices?

The very best of luck to you.

You'll probably be charged under Byelaw 18 (which is strict liability, no proof of intent required). That'll go to the Magistrates Court, not Crown Court, where you'll almost certainly lose. No legal precedent.

What exactly is corrupt here? The law states you must have a valid ticket before you board (where facilities exist) and show it on request. You didn't have a valid ticket when you boarded the train.

Maybe you don’t fully understand the law? Just a question.

I'm not meaning to be rude, but you are clearly the one who doesn't understand it. If you don't want advice, why did you start a thread?

Don’t want to say too much on here with regards to consumer law as cases are going on, and maybe there will be a judgment which will then be incorporated into law?

If this is the one you mentioned regarding GTR tickets in the South of England, it has absolutely no relevance to your situation. None at all.

 

[gray1404]

Don’t want to say too much on here with regards to consumer law as cases are going on, and maybe there will be a judgment which will then be incorporated into law?


Maybe you don’t fully understand the law? Just a question.

Gemma, in response to your question, as a holder of a law degree I do indeed fully understand all the legal issues at play here. I wish you well in your situation with Northern.

 

[Gemma c]

Gemma, in response to your question, as a holder of a law degree I do indeed fully understand all the legal issues at play here. I wish you well in your situation with Northern.

Guessing you know where I’m coming from on this! Thanks

 

[gray1404]

Guessing you know where I’m coming from on this! Thanks

I have no idea Gemma where you are coming from on this. Could you please clarify your position? It would be really useful to understand what angle you are coming from. Also, is it possible for you to upload a copy of the letter you received from Northern with personal details extracted.

 

[Gemma c]

For what it's worth, for anyone who is unfamiliar with Saltaire, there is a ticket machine clearly placed at the entrance to the Skipton bound and it often does Not work

So what in law gives the right for a few people to convict? Only 12 people in a jury can decide if anything warrants a conviction?

The OP has no recourse. They walked onto a train and passed up an opportunity to pay. If the payment doesn’t go through on the app and there’s a working ticket machine the offence is complete, I’m afraid.


The OP has already pursued this with customer services, so if they reach deadlock then they can certainly go to the Ombudsman. However the Ombudsman does not have the authority to order a train company to discontinue a prosecution or authorisation to prosecute, which, unfortunately, looks to have been a legitimate action here.

Totally agree, that said a threatening letter which does not state “ you have the right to remain silent or not reply in this case” could be argued against the law?

 

[island]

To add another thing, why was there A massive increase of price of 140% to which the guard wanted? Is this not a breach of the consumer act?

There is no Act by that name.

On pressurise selling?

No pressure was put on you other than by yourselves.

At exesive price. A case currently going on in the south of England?

Do you have a link to the case?

Also under the consumer act 2015 anything said or written down by a train company or someone acting on their behalf ( guard) forms a contract? Also states a reasonable price to pay, I doubt a 140% increase would be seen as reasonable?

I am completely lost as to where this "140% price increase" comes from, but the prices of train tickets are widely available online and from train companies.

And the 140% increase in price ? Consumer rights act 2015?

You are clutching at straws and making no sense.

On another issue,people have the right to remain silent under U.K. law, not respond , say nothing, ? This is not stated in the letter? If it is a lost cause saying nothing is the best option?

As the remainder of the caution goes, it may harm your defence if you fail to mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court.

And this is assuming Northern Rail and it’s employees acted within the law?

I have seen nothing to suggest otherwise.

Would that be such a bad thing? Try get to crown court where a judgment would be in law, maybe an end to corrupt practices?

If you are prosecuted it will be in Magistrates Court which does not set precedents.

Don’t want to say too much on here with regards to consumer law as cases are going on, and maybe there will be a judgment which will then be incorporated into law?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Maybe you don’t fully understand the law? Just a question.

I think you are describing yourself.

So what in law gives the right for a few people to convict? Only 12 people in a jury can decide if anything warrants a conviction?

Magistrates up and down the country convict people 5 days a week and have done for many, many years.

Totally agree, that said a threatening letter which does not state “ you have the right to remain silent or not reply in this case” could be argued against the law?

A lot of things can be argued. Not all of them can be argued successfully.

 

[Gemma c]

I suspect you were trying to buy discounted Advance tickets on the app, which provide a discount for selecting a fixed train to travel on when you purchase up until a set time before travel. If you do not buy a ticket when there are available facilities at a station, e.g. the ticket machine at Saltaire, the conductor is entitled to only sell an undiscounted Anytime Single on board under Part B Conditions 6 and 9 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

It is not a breach of the 'consumer act', pressure selling or anything to do with the matter going on in the south of England.

On this line any cheap ticket is ok, as long as it is within the time scale allocated we have done this since with full video recording, buying a ticket for a later train guard came no issues.

 

[Starmill]

So what in law gives the right for a few people to convict? Only 12 people in a jury can decide if anything warrants a conviction?

Juries can decide questions of fact, not that you'd be tried with one. There does not seem to be any disagreement on facts here however. The facts as agreed are that you were, at a specific time, travelling on the train and not in possession of a ticket.

On this line any cheap ticket is ok, as long as it is within the time scale allocated we have done this since with full video recording, buying a ticket for a later train guard came no issues.

Were you trying to buy an Off Peak Day Single or Off Peak Day Return with a railcard discount? If so the guard may have offered to issue you the Anytime Day Single without a railcard discount. This price would be considerably more.

 

[Gemma c]

On this line any cheap ticket is ok, as long as it is within the time scale allocated we have done this since with full video recording, buying a ticket for a later train guard came no issues.

Actually NO GET SOME APPS and look for yourself there is a 140% difference in price from buying on line to the ticket office!

time

And it states you must buy a ticket at the earliest opportunity, does it not count before boarding the train?

 

[skyhigh]

On this line any cheap ticket is ok, as long as it is within the time scale allocated we have done this since with full video recording, buying a ticket for a later train guard came no issues.

That is a dangerous assumption to make. Advance singles (which having since checked are available on journeys such as Leeds-Saltaire/Steeton) are 100% only valid on the booked time train and you are running the risk of being asked to purchase a full price new ticket or reported for prosecution if you travel on the wrong train.

 

[Gemma c]

That is a dangerous assumption to make. Advance singles (which having since checked are available on journeys such as Leeds-Saltaire/Steeton) are 100% only valid on the booked time train and you are running the risk of being asked to purchase a full price new ticket or reported for prosecution if you travel on the wrong train.

Actually it is not, we have done it multiple times with different people, earlier trains and later, the ticket office DO NOT ASK at what time you wish to return or leave! Now on LNER/ West coast , etc this is correct , ruleings need to be made like TFL where people know whet they stand no excuse?

 

[Starmill]

Actually NO GET SOME APPS and look for yourself there is a 140% difference in price from buying on line to the ticket office!

The same tickets are usually available online and at a ticket office. What tickets are they and how much do they cost?

 

[WesternLancer]

To add another thing, why was there A massive increase of price of 140% to which the guard wanted? Is this not a breach of the consumer act? On pressurise selling? At exesive price. A case currently going on in the south of England?


Also under the consumer act 2015 anything said or written down by a train company or someone acting on their behalf ( guard) forms a contract? Also states a reasonable price to pay, I doubt a 140% increase would be seen as reasonable?

If you want to go down that route I'd suggest going to see a solicitor for some advice, and be prepared to pay them for it. But my hunch is that would be a waste of your money.
As for your response on this forum you don't seem to be keen on taking the advice provided for free from people who know more about railway ticketing than I suspect you can recall about hot dinners (if you will excuse my mixed metaphors). I would suggest you take the advice, or reject it and see the railway company in court - with or without legal help. If the latter it will be genuinely interesting to readers if you head back here and post an update in the fullness of time.

If you don't like the railway's attitude then there are other modes of transport available to you of course.

ref the ticket price 'increase' it is usually the case that where ticket selling facilities are available at a station, and they are not used, the only tickets you can buy on board from staff (if any are allowed to be sold) are full priced undiscounted 'Anytime' fares. The price differences for all tickets are listed here for you to check:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[AlterEgo]

It is not surprising that the OP has managed to escalate being removed from a train to being prosecuted.

 

[skyhigh]

Actually it is not, we have done it multiple times with different people, earlier trains and later, the ticket office DO NOT ASK at what time you wish to return or leave! Now on LNER/ West coast , etc this is correct , ruleings need to be made like TFL where people know whet they stand no excuse?

I can assure you the same terms apply on discounted Advance tickets no matter if you're travelling with Northern, LNER or anyone else. If you buy an off-peak/peak ticket it can be used on any applicable train, but Advances are booked train only.