appealing against prosecutions

[03hmaxey]

My sister recently planned on getting the train from Newcastle to London Kings Cross. She had bought her ticket in advance. On arrival at Newcastle train station, 20 minutes before her train, she tried to collect her ticket from the machine but it did not print. My sister obviously approached the information desk for assistance, and received abuse from 'T', who accused my sister of swearing, my mother of lying, and threatened both of them, even calling over the security guard.

Thankfully, 'N' gave my sister a ticket which would permit her to travel on that day and sort out the problem at a later date. Both N and the train guard assured my sister that she would not have to pay for this ticket, as she had already paid for this online.

East Coast Trains subsequently issued my sister with a demand for payment for this ticket, so my mother wrote to them advising of the mitigating circumstances and explaining that my sister had already purchased a ticket for this journey. She received a letter in response informing her that this was out of the control of East Coast. My sister appealed against the fine and demand for payment issues by Revenue Protection Support Services, including the booking confirmation for the original ticket which was denied. She consequently received a summons for criminal proceedings, the maximum penalty of which is a £1000 fine and/or 3 months imprisonment.

We are now out of pocket due to East Coast's blunder. How can we contact anyone at East Coast to discuss this problem? Is there anything we can do about this?

I have attempted to gain action or contact with the relevant people by using East Coast's Twitter and Facebook pages, but received an email in response informing me that East Coast will not action because I did not originate the complaint. I have asked East Coast, via the social networking sites, to contact my mother instead, at her email address, but I am not hopeful.

Is there anything we can do to discuss this?

 

[reb0118]

Probably not much to be honest. When there are allegations of abuse towards staff companies tend to pull the drawbridge up.

You may, depending on ticket type, be able to put your original tickets in for a refund if you have not collected them from the TVM (Ticket Vending Machine). A copy of the bank statement showing the deduction for the original ticket may help you in this.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The demand is for the fare she should have paid, because she travelled without paying. Because she hasn't paid it, East Coast have now decided to prosecute. She might want to pay and argue about it later, at least there will be no issues about prosecution.

Your sister needs to be the one fighting this, not you, and your sister needs to take ownership of it. I would suggest starting with Passenger Focus.

I am rather sceptical that the staff member became abusive off their own back, though.

 

[redbutton]

I'm not saying this is what happened for the OP's sister, but I've seen stressed passengers become irate because the first person in uniform that they approached wasn't in a position to help them, as the driver from the OP's story wouldn't have been. I'd even say that in some of these cases the passengers' behavior could have been classed as abusive toward staff, whether or not that was their intention.

 

[Clip]

My sister recently planned on getting the train from Newcastle to London Kings Cross. She had bought her ticket in advance. On arrival at Newcastle train station, 20 minutes before her train, she tried to collect her ticket from the machine but it did not print. My sister obviously approached the information desk for assistance, and received abuse from 'T', who accused my sister of swearing, my mother of lying, and threatened both of them, even calling over the security guard.

Thankfully, 'N' gave my sister a ticket which would permit her to travel on that day and sort out the problem at a later date. Both N and the train guard assured my sister that she would not have to pay for this ticket, as she had already paid for this online.

East Coast Trains subsequently issued my sister with a demand for payment for this ticket, so my mother wrote to them advising of the mitigating circumstances and explaining that my sister had already purchased a ticket for this journey. She received a letter in response informing her that this was out of the control of East Coast. My sister appealed against the fine and demand for payment issues by Revenue Protection Support Services, including the booking confirmation for the original ticket which was denied. She consequently received a summons for criminal proceedings, the maximum penalty of which is a £1000 fine and/or 3 months imprisonment.

We are now out of pocket due to East Coast's blunder. How can we contact anyone at East Coast to discuss this problem? Is there anything we can do about this?

I have attempted to gain action or contact with the relevant people by using East Coast's Twitter and Facebook pages, but received an email in response informing me that East Coast will not action because I did not originate the complaint. I have asked East Coast, via the social networking sites, to contact my mother instead, at her email address, but I am not hopeful.

Is there anything we can do to discuss this?

What was this 'ticket' that was given to your sister? Was it an Unpaid Fares Notice?

I would suggest, as someone else has said, that your sister, not you or your mother contacts East Coast to sort this, I dont understand why she hasnt and you have asked them to get in touch with you or your mother.

That aside, what proof has your sister got that the tickets didnt print? There should be a log with the TVM she used that will state that there was no ticket issued at that time. If there was, and maybe EC know this, then there probably isnt much that she can do apart from appeal to EC good nature. But she has to do this. not you.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Now that a Summons to answer a charge in Court has been issued, its going to be more difficult to discuss this with the Company, however, I'm sure it's still worth trying to clarify what looks at first like a massive mix-up.

Of course, there may be more to it that we don't know about, and I have to admit that if the facts have been presented as explained on here and the Company is still pursuing the cost of the ticket, then I have to suspect that there is more to this matter.

Anyway, as with all matters that are heard in Courts, it all depends on the evidence - who said what to whom and with what written records. Any advice would have to be based on a consideration of what paperwork we have to support each side's point of view. I'm guessing that you don't have any evidence other than the recollection of the conversations and so for all the world knows, there is just an unpaid invoice that is still to be paid?

It's a shame that its progressed as far as a prosecution, as this probably could have been resolved (if it is resolvable) sooner than this. At this stage, many companies won't withdraw a matter once they've lodged in at a Court unless there is compelling evidence to show that their claim would fail.

 

[VisualAcid]

This sounds like the OP shouldn't be paying anything? The ticket didn't print and they were assured no further payment would be required. What exactly as East Coast pursuing? It's their fault if the machine doesn't print correctly.

 

[jon0844]

With the way things go, especially if the ticket was purchased elsewhere (i.e. not the EC website) then you probably need to pay for the new ticket, and then put in a claim for a refund having produced the necessary evidence that you had a valid ticket already purchased but it couldn't be printed.

Noting the details of the TVM in question might also help.

But losing your cool with staff, especially a driver that is in no position to help you with a ticketing problem, is never a good idea. Be firm, sure, but always polite. The person you're talking to is almost certainly not the problem, and you want them on your side!

 

[Flamingo]

If I were a betting man (which I'm not), I'd bet a pound to a penny that a UFN was issued, with advice to print the tickets and enclose them with the UFN and a covering letter. This wasn't done, so the unpaid UFN kicked it.

 

[jon0844]

If I were a betting man (which I'm not)

A shame as I suspect you'd be rather rich by now.

 

[455driver]

If I were a betting man (which I'm not), I'd bet a pound to a penny that a UFN was issued, with advice to print the tickets and enclose them with the UFN and a covering letter. This wasn't done, so the unpaid UFN kicked it.

head in the sand syndrome!

I was wondering what she expected "T" to do about it, and I am curious that once "T" had told the sister that they couldnt help her (and probably pointed out where she needed to go for help) whether she just kept pushing the point until "T" got fed up and told her where to go!

With all these aggressive, abusive staff on the railways its a wonder anyone ever catches the train!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My Thankfully, 'N' gave my sister a ticket which would permit her to travel on that day and sort out the problem at a later date. Both N and the train guard assured my sister that she would not have to pay for this ticket, as she had already paid for this online.

So what has your sister done to sort out the problem at a later date then?
She would have been told exactly what to do at the time the UFN was issued.
I bet its nothing!

 

[jon0844]

It's particularly odd that we get posts on here in waves. Usually it's people posting with the line that a criminal record would be devastating to their career (often having been caught forgetting what station they boarded at), but in the last week we've had at least three posts talking about bad language/abuse.

Is there some sort of email template on another forum that people are told to use when asking for help on here?

 

[Flamingo]

A shame as I suspect you'd be rather rich by now.

It's thirty years since I put money on a horse. It only finished last week!

 

[island]

If I were a betting man (which I'm not), I'd bet a pound to a penny that a UFN was issued, with advice to print the tickets and enclose them with the UFN and a covering letter. This wasn't done, so the unpaid UFN kicked it.

Yup. A case of "it'llgoawayifIignoreititis".

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's thirty years since I put money on a horse. It only finished last week!

Pfft, mine was last night's lasagne.

 

[transmanche]

It's thirty years since I put money on a horse. It only finished last week!

[youtube]bcYppAs6ZdI[/youtube]

 

[Andrewlong]

Probably not much to be honest. When there are allegations of abuse towards staff companies tend to pull the drawbridge up.

You may, depending on ticket type, be able to put your original tickets in for a refund if you have not collected them from the TVM (Ticket Vending Machine). A copy of the bank statement showing the deduction for the original ticket may help you in this.

If the ticket didn't print, could not the op have gone to another machine and collected ticket from there or would the original machine have designated the ticket as being issued and prevented a re-print?

In terms of evidence, the op would have also had an email or text message with details of ticket to be collected which could have been used as evidence.

 

[island]

In terms of evidence, the op would have also had an email or text message with details of ticket to be collected which could have been used as evidence.

It's an offence to join a train without a ticket when ticketing facilities were available unless given permission by an authorised person or notice. Email confirmations are not a ticket.

 

[bb21]

If the ticket didn't print, could not the op have gone to another machine and collected ticket from there or would the original machine have designated the ticket as being issued and prevented a re-print?

It depends on the nature of the error.

There are too many things that are uncertain and/or don't add up about this case.

 

[Hellfire]

Presumably she had a code to put into the ticket machine to get her ticket. In my experience, if there is a problem with a TVM, just go to the ticket office and explain the situation. They normally take the code and issue the ticket.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Presumably she had a code to put into the ticket machine to get her ticket. In my experience, if there is a problem with a TVM, just go to the ticket office and explain the situation. They normally take the code and issue the ticket.

Yes, and Newcastle Central station is no exception, a station I use regularly and whose retail staff have been polite, friendly, chatty and helpful. I've no reason to believe that someone explaining a difficulty in collecting a ticket from a TVM at Newcastle would be met with abuse, with an accusation of swearing and accusation of lying (unless, of course, there is something the OP hasn't told us . . . . such as swearing at the staff and lying to the staff or other reason to incur disbelief).

 

[03hmaxey]

If I were a betting man (which I'm not), I'd bet a pound to a penny that a UFN was issued, with advice to print the tickets and enclose them with the UFN and a covering letter. This wasn't done, so the unpaid UFN kicked it.

That's a shame. You just lost that pound. Both were sent, confirmation of this was received in a letter stating that payment was still required.

 

[03hmaxey]

head in the sand syndrome!

I was wondering what she expected "T" to do about it, and I am curious that once "T" had told the sister that they couldnt help her (and probably pointed out where she needed to go for help) whether she just kept pushing the point until "T" got fed up and told her where to go!

With all these aggressive, abusive staff on the railways its a wonder anyone ever catches the train!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So what has your sister done to sort out the problem at a later date then?
She would have been told exactly what to do at the time the UFN was issued.
I bet its nothing!

Considering 'T' was stood at the information desk, she was expecting her to tell her who could assist her with her problem, whereby the machine had not printed her tickets.

The focus here is not on the poor customer service received from 'T'. If it were, I would have gone into much greater detail. This information was included as it added to the problem. If she had been dealt with quickly and efficiently, I'm sure something could have been done about the broken ticket machine.

A letter was sent to East Coast explaining the problem experienced, attaching proof that tickets had previously been purchased, valid for the journey taken, through the East Coast website. East Coast sent her a letter stating that there was nothing they could do about this. A letter was received requesting payment, she made an appeal, again including the relevant information, but this was dismissed and she was threatened with legal action so paid the ticket and fine to avoid this.

Considering her journey was paid for twice, through no fault of her own, I don't find this acceptable and not does she. Therefore, we want to know how we complain about this, in order to ensure that she receives her money back and this doesn't happen again to other passengers. Any suggestions?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Now that a Summons to answer a charge in Court has been issued, its going to be more difficult to discuss this with the Company, however, I'm sure it's still worth trying to clarify what looks at first like a massive mix-up.

Of course, there may be more to it that we don't know about, and I have to admit that if the facts have been presented as explained on here and the Company is still pursuing the cost of the ticket, then I have to suspect that there is more to this matter.

Anyway, as with all matters that are heard in Courts, it all depends on the evidence - who said what to whom and with what written records. Any advice would have to be based on a consideration of what paperwork we have to support each side's point of view. I'm guessing that you don't have any evidence other than the recollection of the conversations and so for all the world knows, there is just an unpaid invoice that is still to be paid?

It's a shame that its progressed as far as a prosecution, as this probably could have been resolved (if it is resolvable) sooner than this. At this stage, many companies won't withdraw a matter once they've lodged in at a Court unless there is compelling evidence to show that their claim would fail.

To be honest we don't care so much about the conversations and the poor customer service received, only that she has now paid twice for one journey, and a fine on top of this, due to a malfunction with an East Coast ticket machine.

A letter was sent to East Coast explaining the situation and enclosing proof that a ticket had previously been purchased through the East Coast website. East Coast replied stating that this was out of their control. She received demand for payment and we appealed, again enclosing proof that tickets had been purchased on East Coast website, valid for the journey made. Received letter stating the appeal was unsuccessful and threatening legal action, resulting in three months jail time, so this was obviously paid to avoid this.

She's now paid for the journey twice and then a fair on top, for an issue with East Coast's ticket machine. Any advice as to how to get this money back?

 

[bb21]

What was the error? Did she use the same card she paid for the ticket with for collection?

Depending on the type of ticket purchased, one possibility is that if the ticket remains uncollected, it may be refunded less a £10 admin fee, but that needs to be done within 28 days so swift action would be required. What ticket did she buy?

As far as the Unpaid Fares Notice is concerned, it was correctly issued as she had no ticket.

 

[03hmaxey]

If the ticket didn't print, could not the op have gone to another machine and collected ticket from there or would the original machine have designated the ticket as being issued and prevented a re-print?

In terms of evidence, the op would have also had an email or text message with details of ticket to be collected which could have been used as evidence.

This seemed the most obvious thing to do, and she did do this, however the second machine informed her that it could not issue the tickets as they had already been printed, which they obviously hadn't. This is why she went to the information desk, to gain advice as to how to get the ticket.

She did have this email, and this has been sent to East Coast twice, in her first letter explaining the situation and again at an appeal stage.

 

[03hmaxey]

Presumably she had a code to put into the ticket machine to get her ticket. In my experience, if there is a problem with a TVM, just go to the ticket office and explain the situation. They normally take the code and issue the ticket.

This is what happened, only she went to the information desk to find out where to gain assistance. The information desk finally directed her to the ticket office who gave her this 'ticket' which would apparently enable her to travel and pay later, or explain the situation as to why she didn't need to pay (I don't recall the name of this - sorry!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What was the error? Did she use the same card she paid for the ticket with for collection?

Depending on the type of ticket purchased, one possibility is that if the ticket remains uncollected, it may be refunded less a £10 admin fee, but that needs to be done within 28 days so swift action would be required. What ticket did she buy?

As far as the Unpaid Fares Notice is concerned, it was correctly issued as she had no ticket.

Yes, the same card was used and she used the confirmation code detailed on the email received from East Coast, as usual. The machine told her it had printed the tickets, but did not do this.

It was a single ticket from Newcastle to London Kings Cross. The lady at the ticket office informed her that she could not issue the ticket because the computer system said that it had already been issued, but obviously it had failed to print. This is why she was issued with the unpaid fares notice. She is not arguing as to the suitability of the unpaid fares notice. She has now paid for her ticket twice and a fine, due to the machine not printing.

 

[bb21]

It was a single ticket from Newcastle to London Kings Cross. The lady at the ticket office informed her that she could not issue the ticket because the computer system said that it had already been issued, but obviously it had failed to print. This is why she was issued with the unpaid fares notice. She is not arguing as to the suitability of the unpaid fares notice. She has now paid for her ticket twice and a fine, due to the machine not printing.

Right, we may have got to the bottom of this, finally.

Unfortunately if the ticket is shown as having been issued, there is very little else ticket office staff could do. Did the machine sound like it was printing the tickets at the time, or was it totally silent?

Who did she buy the ticket with? It may be possible to find out when it was supposedly printed.