Are all UK speed limits "safe"?

[arabianights]

When you drive your car, even though plenty of speed limits in the UK are far too low (especially the national one), there are even more speed limits that are far too high and if you tried to drive them then you would end up in a bush, or worse.

Are there any speed limits in the UK that are recognised as unsafe to be driven at on the railway, and it is the driver's responsibilty to set a speed safe for the "hazards" en route? I think that the great western didn't actualy have speed limits in some places until fairly recently but I would assume that the places it didn't the rolling stock were incapable of unsafe speeds (is that right?)

I also exclude from this pedantic answers such as doing 125mph 1cm before a 40mph section (if such a step-down exists), as the danger there is coming from breaking the speed limit on the 40mph section even though doing 125mph in that bit of the 125mph section is obviously dangerous; indeed I know there are plenty of speed limits that could never reasonably be reached scattered around the network for basically this reason...)

Included in this question, I suppose, but not explicitly stated - are there any remaining bits of route that don't have a speed limit (or have it as something like "reasonable and prudent")?

put yet another way - if the speed limit is X mph, the unit you are driving is rated to X mph, and signals and approaching speed limits allow it, is it always safe to do X mph?

 

[D1009]

When you drive your car, even though plenty of speed limits in the UK are far too low (especially the national one), there are even more speed limits that are far too high and if you tried to drive them then you would end up in a bush, or worse.

Are there any speed limits in the UK that are recognised as unsafe to be driven at on the railway, and it is the driver's responsibilty to set a speed safe for the "hazards" en route? I think that the great western didn't actualy have speed limits in some places until fairly recently but I would assume that the places it didn't the rolling stock were incapable of unsafe speeds (is that right?)

I also exclude from this pedantic answers such as doing 125mph 1cm before a 40mph section (if such a step-down exists), as the danger there is coming from breaking the speed limit on the 40mph section even though doing 125mph in that bit of the 125mph section is obviously dangerous; indeed I know there are plenty of speed limits that could never reasonably be reached scattered around the network for basically this reason...)

Included in this question, I suppose, but not explicitly stated - are there any remaining bits of route that don't have a speed limit (or have it as something like "reasonable and prudent")?

put yet another way - if the speed limit is X mph, the unit you are driving is rated to X mph, and signals and approaching speed limits allow it, is it always safe to do X mph?

The answer to your basic question is yes. I do remember seeing an old sectional appendix which indicated a section of the Western Region in steam days where the maximum permissible speed was 90 mph except between x and y where the speed may be as high as the driver deems necessary having due regard to safety etc. Nowadays every section of track has a permissible speed shown in the sectional appendix which is strictly enforced and is safe in normal circumstances.

 

[notadriver]

Well safe yes. Always attainable in real conditions and comfortable, no!

 

[Bald Rick]

put yet another way - if the speed limit is X mph, the unit you are driving is rated to X mph, and signals and approaching speed limits allow it, is it always safe to do X mph?

Yes...

 

[cjmillsnun]

I suspect the only time the nominal speed limit would be unsafe is where the condition of the track is poor. However in that instance a TSR would be imposed.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....However in that instance a TSR would be imposed.

Known track defects have TSRs imposed......

 

[455driver]

There are a few places where I run at below the maximum because the track/ points are a bit rough, not for safety reasons but because it might spill my coffee, oops I mean for passenger comfort!

 

[michael769]

There are a few places where I run at below the maximum because the track/ points are a bit rough, not for safety reasons but because it might spill my coffee, oops I mean for passenger comfort!

The (soon to be replaced) points at Midcalder Junction are shall we say... interesting at line speed!

 

[Yew]

The (soon to be replaced) points at Midcalder Junction are shall we say... interesting at line speed!

Personally I quite fancy doing Newark flat crossing at full speed, however I imagine that price of track is very well maintained

 

[notadriver]

Personally I quite fancy doing Newark flat crossing at full speed, however I imagine that price of track is very well maintained

Well you can always do it on train simulator !

 

[dk1]

There are a few places where I run at below the maximum because the track/ points are a bit rough, not for safety reasons but because it might spill my coffee, oops I mean for passenger comfort!

I do the same for the benefit of the catering crew onboard. Might not get my freebies during turnarounds otherwise :-P

 

[notadriver]

I know of certain conductor/guards who would press the emergency stop plunger in the rear/intermediate cabs if they felt the train was going too fast to stop at next station or too fast approaching a speed restriction.

 

[LE Greys]

The answer to your basic question is yes. I do remember seeing an old sectional appendix which indicated a section of the Western Region in steam days where the maximum permissible speed was 90 mph except between x and y where the speed may be as high as the driver deems necessary having due regard to safety etc. Nowadays every section of track has a permissible speed shown in the sectional appendix which is strictly enforced and is safe in normal circumstances.

Similar rules applied on the Eastern Region, and were sometimes ignored in an attempt to make up time because of delays. AIUI, that was an improvement on LNER days, when some sections of open line had no speed limit at all, and many locos had no speedometer. The rule of thumb by which the civil engineering department worked was, 'If the safe speed over the work site is 40, put in a PWS of 20'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know of certain conductor/guards who would press the emergency stop plunger in the rear/intermediate cabs if they felt the train was going too fast to stop at next station or too fast approaching a speed restriction.

This could be a heck of a lot more complicated with loose-coupled goods trains, since a train starting too quickly, picking up vehicles one at a time, could wrap the guard around the brake handle if the start was to quick. When stopping, each vehicle would have to buffer up one at a time before the brakes could come on fully. Drivers who wrapped the guard around the brake handle were never very popular. Some of these trains used to reach remarkable speeds, the Great Central 'Windcutters' sometimes getting up to 90mph.

I think it's safe to say modern-day safety is an improvement.

 

[dk1]

I think its fair to say that any permanent speed restriction on the UK rail network is safe. They also allow for a bit extra & those more at risk places usually have TPWS overspeed anyway.

 

[Crossover]

The only advisory that I can think of (I'm not rail staff, btw) is at Birmingham International where I believe between certain hours, any non-stop (of which, there aren't many anyway) are limited to a lower speed to stop all the rubbish from the track blowing up on the platform. Or maybe I've heard a myth

 

[The Planner]

You have heard a myth unless you are on a wind up, there are no speed restrictions like that at Birmingham International.

 

[D1009]

I remember about 5 years ago a pop concert in Knebworth Park. The returning crowds overwhelmed the station, and someone decided all trains should be cautioned for safety reasons. Subsequently there was a huge argument as to who was responsible for the delay minutes.

 

[TDK]

I know of certain conductor/guards who would press the emergency stop plunger in the rear/intermediate cabs if they felt the train was going too fast to stop at next station or too fast approaching a speed restriction.

How would the guard know where exactly the speed restriction was however if a guard stopped the train and I was just about to go through a booked call I would certainly praise him for it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I remember about 5 years ago a pop concert in Knebworth Park. The returning crowds overwhelmed the station, and someone decided all trains should be cautioned for safety reasons. Subsequently there was a huge argument as to who was responsible for the delay minutes.

Network Rail would be for allowing the overcrowding of the station

 

[D1009]

Network Rail would be for allowing the overcrowding of the station

Knebworth is not an NR managed station, so how can they be responsible for overcrowding?

 

[notadriver]

How would the guard know where exactly the speed restriction was however if a guard stopped the train and I was just about to go through a booked call I would certainly praise him for it.

I think when guards go route learning they should be able to ride up front so they can see the road properly. At my TOC drivers are allowed to pass up front.

 

[LE Greys]

I remember about 5 years ago a pop concert in Knebworth Park. The returning crowds overwhelmed the station, and someone decided all trains should be cautioned for safety reasons. Subsequently there was a huge argument as to who was responsible for the delay minutes.

Charge Robbie Williams, he can afford it!

 

[Tomnick]

I think when guards go route learning they should be able to ride up front so they can see the road properly. At my TOC drivers are allowed to pass up front.

Likewise for Signalmen, in my opinion (and vice-versa, of course!). I know it does happen sometimes, but I think we'd all benefit from a lot more understanding of the problems that the 'other side' face.

 

[RailProfileUK]

There are certain places in the High peak where the speed limit is 90mph through tunnels. If I was travelling through there at 90mph I would be in a crouched position with white knuckles

 

[Chafford1]

Similar rules applied on the Eastern Region, and were sometimes ignored in an attempt to make up time because of delays. AIUI, that was an improvement on LNER days, when some sections of open line had no speed limit at all, and many locos had no speedometer. The rule of thumb by which the civil engineering department worked was, 'If the safe speed over the work site is 40, put in a PWS of 20'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This could be a heck of a lot more complicated with loose-coupled goods trains, since a train starting too quickly, picking up vehicles one at a time, could wrap the guard around the brake handle if the start was to quick. When stopping, each vehicle would have to buffer up one at a time before the brakes could come on fully. Drivers who wrapped the guard around the brake handle were never very popular. Some of these trains used to reach remarkable speeds, the Great Central 'Windcutters' sometimes getting up to 90mph.

I think it's safe to say modern-day safety is an improvement.

The 9F hauled 'Windcutter' freights were certainly timed in the mid 60s, and the 9Fs very occasionally at 90mph hauling passenger expresses.