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Are concessionary pass holders 'entitled freeloaders'?

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Xenophon PCDGS

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I have been discussing the matter of ENCTS passes with an 83 year old woman in Handforth and explained that some people are in favour of asking age-related holders of these passes to pay full fare. Her response was that she has to travel to Macclesfield Hospital to visit her 87 year old sister who has been in that hospital for some time recovering from an operation. I asked her if she would like me to pass on any comments on the matter to this website but all she would say was that "there are some heartless so-and-so's knocking around these days"
 
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owidoe

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I have been discussing the matter of ENCTS passes with an 83 year old woman in Handforth and explained that some people are in favour of asking age-related holders of these passes to pay full fare. Her response was that she has to travel to Macclesfield Hospital to visit her 87 year old sister who has been in that hospital for some time recovering from an operation. I asked her if she would like me to pass on any comments on the matter to this website but all she would say was that "there are some heartless so-and-so's knocking around these days"
Should everyone with relatives in hospital get free bus travel?
 

delt1c

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The free travel gets people who otherwise couldn’t afford it out and about, which has to be a good thing. Keeps people alert and active. Otherwise if it was removed they would just sit indoors ( without heating) and watch life out of the window.
 

Gloster

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I personally think that it is a good thing for a number of reasons , but there are always people who object to paying for anything the don’t directly benefit from. (“Why should I pay for schools. My kids are grown up.”) However, there are always those who abuse or complain about any restrictions on their benefits and if they are older it tends to be more obvious.

There is also the matter of perception. If a group of teenagers or a lowlife behave rudely or try to get what they want by arguing we see it as quite normal. If a sweet old lady with a shopping trolley gives a driver a mouthful because he insists she show her card, it is not what we expect.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Should an 83 year old woman holding an ENCTS pass visiting her 87 year old sister in a hospital some miles away be subject to that normal pass validity being withdrawn?

Are there many people saying the ENCTS (age related edition) should be withdrawn entirely? Some are suggesting an alteration to the start time, many mention the apparently poor reimbursement that operators receive, I mention a voluntary contribution if users feel their service is under threat, others have suggested paying a 'small amount' each time.

At what time is this lady visiting her sister in hospital? Does she have to be there before the pass validity kicks in? (rhetorical question).

The mother insists on always catching the first bus after 0930, despite having all day to do her shopping and since the Covid thing, complaining about there being so many people on that bus that they can't 'distance' properly!

Anyway I read the OP as being about a sense / feeling of 'entitlement' - a phrase today often directed at young people or those the product of Eton - rather than being legally 'entitled' to have one or use one.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The mother insists on always catching the first bus after 0930, despite having all day to do her shopping and since the Covid thing, complaining about there being so many people on that bus that they can't 'distance' properly!
Always the way. If I went to head office, I would sometimes get there at 0900 (streets deserted) but if I was later (0930), plenty of snowies at the stops.
 

ChrisC

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There is nothing to stop people voluntarily paying cash now and then instead of using their ENCTS, thus helping to save a marginal route (or topping up the profits of the bus co, discuss elsewhere!). Say someone uses the bus daily - so 14 journeys in all, a passholder could pay once per week, say £2 instead of the re-imbursement rate of £1. £15 revenue to the bus co instead of £14. Multiply that by the number of pass users on a route.
When I get my ENCTS pass in October that is something that I intend to do. The first bus after 9.30am, when I would be able to use my pass is not until 10.15am. If I’m going out for a day, especially to reach the starting point for a walk I have no intention of waiting until that time and will use the 8.15 am or 9.15am bus and pay for a day ticket as I do now. Living in a county where there is no multi-operator ticket the ENCTS pass will be useful if I need to use a bus later in the day with a different operator where I would have to buy another ticket. I certainly don’t want to join all those people who crowd onto the first bus after 9.30 to travel free.
 

ChrisC

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Why not? What's wrong with them?
I don't think I worded that very well. That isn't really quite what I meant. If I want to go somewhere earlier I will pay. I don't want to be waiting around until after 9.30 just so I can travel free. I know that I am fortunate and can afford it and don't really need a bus pass.
 

AM9

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The free travel gets people who otherwise couldn’t afford it out and about, which has to be a good thing. Keeps people alert and active. Otherwise if it was removed they would just sit indoors ( without heating) and watch life out of the window.
It also keeps quite a few pensioners who have a car but aren't particularly good drivers, off the roads, so those wanting to take the benefit away, be careful of what you wish for.
 

Bayum

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Unable to travel alone at all then.

I think this is too restricting. There are days when I’m more than capable of getting myself out and about. However, there are also days when I can’t climb up a step or lift myself off a seat or manoeuvre well enough over paved ground. Physical and mental health conditions fluctuate and as such you can’t restrict this to the extent you’re suggesting.
 

Dai Corner

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I think this is too restricting. There are days when I’m more than capable of getting myself out and about. However, there are also days when I can’t climb up a step or lift myself off a seat or manoeuvre well enough over paved ground. Physical and mental health conditions fluctuate and as such you can’t restrict this to the extent you’re suggesting.
I wouldn't stop someone in your position from having a companion pass, nor insist that you always take a companion. I only want to stop the likes of 'York lad' mentioned above who doesn't appear to need a companion at all abusing the system to the detriment of the taxpayer, and potentially other passengers if buses are full.
 

Bayum

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I wouldn't stop someone in your position from having a companion pass, nor insist that you always take a companion. I only want to stop the likes of 'York lad' mentioned above who doesn't appear to need a companion at all abusing the system to the detriment of the taxpayer, and potentially other passengers if buses are full.
Which I accept. But a number of suggestions you have made don’t seem to have taken into account why the majority of people who use their companion plus aspect of their pass correctly need that security there.
 

Dai Corner

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Which I accept. But a number of suggestions you have made don’t seem to have taken into account why the majority of people who use their companion plus aspect of their pass correctly need that security there.
I may not have worded it as well as I could but I'm just advocating not giving companion passes to holders who don't ever need a companion.
 

Deerfold

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I wouldn't stop someone in your position from having a companion pass, nor insist that you always take a companion. I only want to stop the likes of 'York lad' mentioned above who doesn't appear to need a companion at all abusing the system to the detriment of the taxpayer, and potentially other passengers if buses are full.
The problem is that to address that (I think) minor problem, the system is at risk of becoming far more complicated and expensive to administer.
 

Busaholic

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The problem is that to address that (I think) minor problem, the system is at risk of becoming far more complicated and expensive to administer.
Precisely - those wishing to complicate the availability are (perhaps unwittingly, but often not) more likely to contribute to the possible ending of the scheme, in the matter of free travel at any rate.
 

Dai Corner

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Precisely - those wishing to complicate the availability are (perhaps unwittingly, but often not) more likely to contribute to the possible ending of the scheme, in the matter of free travel at any rate.
It's already a fairly bureaucratic process. Would adding a tick box for a medical professional to state whether or not the applicant meets the criteria for a companion pass add that significantly to it? I think I made that point before in this thread.
 

Typhoon

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Should an 83 year old woman holding an ENCTS pass visiting her 87 year old sister in a hospital some miles away be subject to that normal pass validity being withdrawn?
It is highly likely that the 83 year old visiting her sister in hospital (particularly if she is the sole regular visitor) helped in her recovery/ contributed to her well being.
Having been in hospital twice, on both occasions too far from family. the visit on the first occasion from someone from HR made all the difference (especially as it was her initiative and in her lunch time).
There is nothing worse than being in hospital when everyone else has visitors, who don't even ask whether they can borrow 'your' chair any more as they know no-one visits.
 

Busaholic

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It's already a fairly bureaucratic process. Would adding a tick box for a medical professional to state whether or not the applicant meets the criteria for a companion pass add that significantly to it? I think I made that point before in this thread.
I wasn't particularly referring to that issue tbh. I was more addressing the people who want Pension Credit to come into it or to implement reduced fares rather than free travel. A gallery near me that was previously free of charge to enter started charging £1 a few years ago and now demands £5!
 

Baxenden Bank

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A gallery near me that was previously free of charge to enter started charging £1 a few years ago and now demands £5!
Exactly. Parking in towns was free, then a small fee was introduced, now it's a massive money spinner for many councils. As a non ENCTS person I stand with ENCTS holders - resist the (any proposed) compulsory small contribution!
 

Dai Corner

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I wasn't particularly referring to that issue tbh. I was more addressing the people who want Pension Credit to come into it or to implement reduced fares rather than free travel. A gallery near me that was previously free of charge to enter started charging £1 a few years ago and now demands £5!
Ah sorry. My remarks were intended for the previous poster.

Charging to enter a gallery where presumably they try to sell you works of art seems a bit counter-productive. I have no interest in or experience of such establishments though.
 

Busaholic

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Ah sorry. My remarks were intended for the previous poster.

Charging to enter a gallery where presumably they try to sell you works of art seems a bit counter-productive. I have no interest in or experience of such establishments though.
My turn to apologise! I should have made clear it was an Arts Council funded gallery displaying works of art, or 'installations', not trying to sell them.
 

contrex

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I have noticed elderly people (some, but not all) jump the queue, regardless of if other people have been waiting longer than them.
In early 2010, when I was 57, my employer moved to the Bristol suburb of Brislington. On my first day at the new location, I arrived at Bristol bus station to get the 07:35 X39 Bristol-Bath bus. I was dismayed to see a huge crowd of schoolkids already at the gate. The bus arrived and they stirred. A schoolgirl, aged about 12 to 14, I guess, but taller than me and strong-looking, said to me, 'Are you waiting for that bus, mister?' I said I was. She said 'You'd better get to the front. This lot will never let you on". I said 'But there's a queue'. 'Never mind that', she said, and grabbed me by the arm, and with one hand in the small of my back, forcibly propelled me past all of the schoolkids as the gate opened, and marched me to the door of the bus.
 

Busaholic

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All this talk of pensioner queuejumping! Someone's being watching the old Monty Python sketch featuring Hell's Grannies or whatever they were called. Jumping? It's as much as many can do, including myself, to put one foot in front of the other. The reality is that many disabled people of any age attempting to access buses are pushed aside or ignored in many situations, and some drivers are not sympathetic to their plight either. I'm not claiming I've suffered greatly from this, though my bus journeys these days are only made vicariously.
 

nanstallon

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I wasn't particularly referring to that issue tbh. I was more addressing the people who want Pension Credit to come into it or to implement reduced fares rather than free travel. A gallery near me that was previously free of charge to enter started charging £1 a few years ago and now demands £5!
So British! Lest someone might get something we don't think he should have, we are going to spend a shedload of money on bureaucratic means tests; costing far more money than is likely to be saved by stopping people who we think shouldn't have the benefit. A mean-spirited attitude to life.
 

pepperpot80

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So, the two main issues at hand are that:
  1. Some people are not personally entitled to use a concessionary pass to obtain free travel, but are either using someone else's (fraud) or by travelling as a companion to a companion passholder (not fraud), and,
  2. Some people are rude (true), and some of those people hold bus passes.
(1)
Up to the pandemic, the National Fraud Initiative identified that the use of deceased or no-longer-valid passes totals to around £1.9 million - £2.2 million annually, set against a general overall spend of £1.1 billion - £1.2 billion on concessionary travel schemes nationally (£780,000 - £880,000 excluding London), depending on what year you look at. So around 0.15%-0.2% of overall spend on concessionary travel is detectable fraud.

9.4 million older and disabled concessionary travel passes were in use England in 2017/18 – with 90% of those concessionary passes given to older people and 10% to disabled people. Of those eligible to have a concessionary pass through age, only 78% have one: while some of this is deliberate non-uptake, for some the bus isn't actually a useful option, and some LAs offer a free Senior Railcard in lieu of a bus pass.

Recouping (for example) £300 per pass would cost between 3-9% (depending on what you include in cost of sale, but card fees alone will be 3%+ and cash handling costs aren't any lower), so between £1 and £3 per pass. This would need to be undertaken every 5 years (along with pass expiry) so assume 20% are applied for or renewed each year. Thus, if we were to shift some funding of ENCTS to this passholder-paying situation, the overall cost of sale would be between £16 million and £42 million a year, vastly outnumbering the cost of fraud (which is only estimated, and of course would still take place - we haven't fixed this), and you would almost certainly have to procure some administration to manage means testing, which would also still be required for disabled concessionary travel. Some people would, indeed, be dissuaded, but the overall cost of funding probably wouldn't decrease, due to the unwanted detrimental effect on bus networks. Also, the decreased societal benefit would likely hit NHS costs, social care costs, and spread burden across other civil and voluntary services.

All these numbers are a bit hand-wavy, but the key take-away is that the cost of pass-payment would be around an order of magnitude greater than the currently apparent loss.

(2)
Moving on...this perceived individual sense of 'entitlement' or pushiness...
  • Some people are rude, and of that subset, some are entitled to free travel.
  • Some people are not rude, and probably should be boarding first and have a seat, and the best way of doing so is to be at the front of the queue.
  • Rudeness is entirely subjective.
That's life, and one's memory or experience of such situations tends to over-represent those which have caused annoyance - this is brain chemistry, not transport policy. Complaints of this sort frequently trundle on into ad hominem or straw-man attacks based on a non-representative sample of the group in question. At best this is exceedingly tiresome, and at worst this becomes an attack on others' rights and benefits with the express intention of reducing or removing these rights or benefits.

(Back to 1)
Regarding "lad from York", or any of the other substitutes for "a concessionary passholder with a valid companion entitlement", I don't have a great deal of sympathy for those who are agitated about this passholder's chosen companions. The diversity of needs which might cause one to need a companion (and be eligible for a companion entitlement) is huge and not at all easy to judge at a glance at a bus stop. If a passholder has a companion entitlement, they can choose to bring their best friend, a stranger at a bus stop or Christine Ohuruogu on the trip with them. It's not up to a bystander, or the driver, or the revenue inspection staff, to evaluate the need for a companion, nor the companion's ability to pay for their own travel. The sole requirement of a 'companion' is that they are capable of providing the support required by the passholder. Anyone insinuating that passholders should have to identify a companion, or specify a companion, needs to think about why you might need ad hoc support to travel, and aspire to better understanding and empathy for those that do need and have use of these passes.

On that point, it's also not up to an onlooker, the driver, or any inspection staff to determine whether a passholder is visiting a sick relative, going to the roller-derby, going down the bookies to bet their giro on the horses, going to foment revolution at their local CIU club, going to foment recession at their local Conservative club, or simply trolling back and forth on a scenic bus route at leisure: no reason for the journey has to be specified.

It is definitely true to say that there's nearly zero identification of ENCTS passholders going on, but the sheer cost of stopping to inspect every card in dwell time alone would be crippling for bus services. ENCTS fraud of all kinds is a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of cost control. There are far bigger problems to face, both in terms of operational costs, driver retention, other systematic fraud, revenue protection, and developing other appropriate sources of bus funding.

It's worth noting that many operators do not claim ENCTS reimbursement on a per-use basis, and have not done for quite some time: there are other arrangements in place, and it would be more representative to accept that ENCTS is a secondary, usage-driven but not usage-based, funding stream alongside other funding mechanisms, such as Bus Recovery Grant and Bus Service Operator Grant. Thus, usage fraud might not really be costed as a per-usage loss, as ENCTS is, for many operators, just part of the mix of core funding for supporting bus services.

I'll finish on my original position in post #39: whether you have "paid in" or not during your non-passholding life is irrelevant, and whether you're off on a jolly or visiting a palliative care clinic has no bearing: the whole purpose of a liberal democracy having a welfare state is to ensure that certain rights and freedoms are available to all, to exercise as they wish. If we've decided that "free bus travel after [age] or given [x] other entitlement" is one of them, and you don't like it, feel free to find a voting majority that agrees with you, and stop anonymously criticising other peoples' lives on the internet.

Sources
National Fraud Initiative: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-fraud-initiative-reports
A useful paper that collects some key ENCTS statistics in one place: https://bettertransport.org.uk/site...rch-files/future-bus-funding-arrangements.pdf
 

Eyersey468

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Regarding the lad from York, what he was doing was getting on the bus either by himself or with a friend, picking up or dropping off his friend and getting the same bus back, therefore clearly using his pass solely to get his mates free rides which is not what the scheme was intended for.

With regards to use in an identity check, do all ENCTS cards include a photographic image of the entitled bearer of the card?
Yes they do
 
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