Are rail fares overpriced?

[radamfi]

The main issues are:

1. Are people making car trips when they could have made the trip by train because the perceived cost of rail is too high?
2. Are British train fares expensive compared with our neighbouring countries when adjusting for the cost of living?

 

[yorksrob]

Who actually buys an anytime return from Manchester to London and why would you do so

If no one does, then why have it ?

I don't have any time for the old "it's a rip-off fare but no one uses them anyway" argument.

If nobody really uses overpriced anytime returns, the TOC's should price the tickets more sensibly, then they might get some people willing to upgrade for the additional flexibility etc.

 

[yorksrob]

The main issues are:

1. Are people making car trips when they could have made the trip by train because the perceived cost of rail is too high?
2. Are British train fares expensive compared with our neighbouring countries when adjusting for the cost of living?

My employer will certainly take the price of fares into account for attending functions and meetings etc. If they require a peak fare, they are likely to be rearranged or go unattended.

 

[wibble]

I think the biggest rip off is where the single fare is priced only just below the price of a return. Often the difference in price can be as little as 10p.

...or the return is priced 10p above the single which makes it less of a rip off...

 

[highspeed990]

I still don't understand entirely what an ORCATS raid is. Can someone give me an example of one?

 

[cuccir]

Who actually buys an anytime return from Manchester to London and why would you do so

As I outlined above: employees (or rather their employers!) who want flexibility and need to travel at relatively short notice.

People talk about flying being cheaper, but have a look at what it would cost if you booked now for a flight from Manchester into London, to be in London tomorrow morning. The cheapest I can find is £237 one way, and even that only gets into Heathrow at 11:00 so you wouldn't be in central London in the morning; it's £343 one way to get into Heathrow for 07:55. The cheapest usable return fare is £404 and the cheapest return arriving at 07:55 is £459.

The cost of fuel for the car journey would be much less than the cost of the train, but if we then factor in the personnel cost of the extra 2 hours each way, parking costs, and discount something from the train for the work that an employee can do while travelling, then suddenly for many employers even an expensive Anytime return is relatively good value.

Of course, there are more people and cases where the Anytime is not good value than where it is, but I'd suggest that the market that exists for them is clearly large enough to bear the cost.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yes, many walk-up rail fares are a rip-off (and some Advance fares are too!) and this has been raised numerous times before.

However if you buy a ticket for a journey priced by a more reasonable operator that is valid for your journey and/or you buy a combination of two or more tickets that, together cover your journey, this can reduce the price. There are websites that will calculate the latter for you.

Splitticketing? Yep brilliant site; saved me a fortune. Actually booked the physical tickets on TPE app for Nectar points but wouldn't have known about the single tickets were it not for splitticketing!

 

[AlterEgo]

If no one does, then why have it ?

To sting people when they get caught without a ticket and have to complete an Unpaid Fares Notice. That's usually for the Anytime.

 

[Llanigraham]

Who actually buys an anytime return from Manchester to London and why would you do so

People who suddenly find they have to catch the train to London!

 

[yorkie]

I still don't understand entirely what an ORCATS raid is. Can someone give me an example of one?

It's a subjective term. It has nothing to do with this topic, but see the results of a search for orcats raid for more information.

Who actually buys an anytime return from Manchester to London

Businesses with large budgets who require flexibility and are prepared to pay almost any amount.

And why would you do so

Their accounts/expense departments don't know it's cheaper to buy a longer distance journey (and start/finish "short") and/or to use a combination of fares, and their budget is so big they aren't even bothered.

Splitticketing? Yep brilliant site; saved me a fortune. Actually booked the physical tickets on TPE app for Nectar points but wouldn't have known about the single tickets were it not for splitticketing!

Just bear in mind that if you wish to change the tickets, TPE may charge an admin fee of £10 for every single ticket; Trainsplit will charge one admin fee for the entire booking (ie, one fee per "TOD collection" reference number)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Who actually buys an anytime return from Manchester to London and why would you do so

It is a distress purchase: people (or businesses) who buy it are the ones who have to.

You would buy it where you need flexibility. The only alternative at some parts of the day are specific train only tickets, with no right to refund.

I have no time for the argument "it's a rip off but nobody buys it". It's a tautology. Nobody buys it because it's a rip-off, but if it wasn't they would.

 

[deltic]

Being London based rather belatedly realised why people buy anytime returns to London Traveling on business the other way the worst I have to buy is a peak priced single then an-off peak single for the return leg - of course travelling to London you are not able to do that as both trips are peak priced

 

[Joe Paxton]

Being London based rather belatedly realised why people buy anytime returns to London Traveling on business the other way the worst I have to buy is a peak priced single then an-off peak single for the return leg - of course travelling to London you are not able to do that as both trips are peak priced

There will be plenty of London-based folk travelling on business who either don't know this or aren't fussed about saving their employer money and so will still buy an Anytime Return from London.

 

[cuccir]

There is another slightly cheeky incentive to buy an Anytime ticket when travelling on expenses: Delay Repay. On a £300 Anytime Return, a 30 minute delay would get you a good £75, which works out a pretty good hourly rate of pay...

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is another slightly cheeky incentive to buy an Anytime ticket when travelling on expenses: Delay Repay. On a £300 Anytime Return, a 30 minute delay would get you a good £75, which works out a pretty good hourly rate of pay...

That's called "fraud", not "slightly cheeky".

 

[island]

I still don't understand entirely what an ORCATS raid is. Can someone give me an example of one?

The precise definition is of some debate, but the usual understanding is that it relates to a TO taking an action that is legal but perceived underhanded or somehow unfair resulting in that TOC’s ORCATS allocation (the proportion of ticket sales paid out to a TOC) increasing, without that TOC carrying any additional passengers or doing anything to justify the payment.

I suppose an example would be on the ECML. (This action was taken some time ago by a previous operator of the line but I use current franchisee names strictly for ease of recognition and current fares for ease of reference.) An anytime first class single from London Terminals to Edinburgh is £241. Almost any passenger using this fare will travel directly from Kings Cross on VTEC. Under ORCATS, part of this fare could be assigned to the other TOCs the passenger might theoretically have used, such as GN, EMT, Thameslink, VTWC, Northern, FHT, FTPE, CrossCountry, GC, ASR, SCS, LM, or Chiltern. VTEC introduced an alternative fare at £237 with route VTEC ONLY – which it is precluded from doing for standard class fares – and as that fare can only be used on VTEC, it gets every last penny. Passengers buying FOSs will save a trivial amount and the rest just handles itself.

 

[cuccir]

That's called "fraud", not "slightly cheeky".

Why fraud? Delay Repay is offered as a payment for inconvenience as much as anything else. There's nothing about it having to be the person who paid for the ticket who gets the money, it's the person who travels.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why fraud? Delay Repay is offered as a payment for inconvenience as much as anything else. There's nothing about it having to be the person who paid for the ticket who gets the money, it's the person who travels.

What is fraud is purchasing a more expensive ticket than required (i.e. an Anytime where Advances or Off Peak would suit) in order to be able to claim a higher amount of Delay Repay. That's what the OP suggested.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The precise definition is of some debate, but the usual understanding is that it relates to a TO taking an action that is legal but perceived underhanded or somehow unfair resulting in that TOC’s ORCATS allocation (the proportion of ticket sales paid out to a TOC) increasing, without that TOC carrying any additional passengers or doing anything to justify the payment.

I suppose an example would be on the ECML. (This action was taken some time ago by a previous operator of the line but I use current franchisee names strictly for ease of recognition and current fares for ease of reference.) An anytime first class single from London Terminals to Edinburgh is £241. Almost any passenger using this fare will travel directly from Kings Cross on VTEC. Under ORCATS, part of this fare could be assigned to the other TOCs the passenger might theoretically have used, such as GN, EMT, Thameslink, VTWC, Northern, FHT, FTPE, CrossCountry, GC, ASR, SCS, LM, or Chiltern. VTEC introduced an alternative fare at £237 with route VTEC ONLY – which it is precluded from doing for standard class fares – and as that fare can only be used on VTEC, it gets every last penny. Passengers buying FOSs will save a trivial amount and the rest just handles itself.

I'm not sure that is an ORCATS raid in my understanding, though I agree the definition is debatable.

One good example to me is the old FNW Manchester to London service. This was very much a budget service (£13.20 "Anytime Return" with a Railcard, even in 1998 money rather good), but also had a First Class section which was just regular Class 158 seats with antimacassars. This was arguably an ORCATS raid - nobody would pay for a First Class fare as it had no benefit at all (the trains were far from overcrowded), but it would get them a small share of Any Permitted First Class revenue.

Another example is Open Access operators stopping at a main station (like, say, GC at York) on the way to London to get a share of Any Permitted fares for that flow even though almost nobody will actually use the service as it's slower than the main TOC. I've long wondered why OA operators are allowed to be part of the

 

[cuccir]

What is fraud is purchasing a more expensive ticket than required (i.e. an Anytime where Advances or Off Peak would suit) in order to be able to claim a higher amount of Delay Repay. That's what the OP suggested.

OK - yes, clearly buying an Anytime ticket when an Off-Peak would suit is fraudulent (and I wasn't particularly thinking of that). I was thinking of flexible v Advance which is often much less clear, as there are multiple reasons beyond Delay Repay to go for the flexible fare (unless there is a clear company policy stating otherwise). But Delay Repay is at least a happy coincidence or a push factor.

 

[Clip]

What is fraud is purchasing a more expensive ticket than required (i.e. an Anytime where Advances or Off Peak would suit) in order to be able to claim a higher amount of Delay Repay. That's what the OP suggested.

It's very far from being fraud but it does rely on the train being delayed.

If the holder of said ticket claimed for a train they were not on which was delayed their would agree with you that that would be fraud

 

[radamfi]

Why fraud? Delay Repay is offered as a payment for inconvenience as much as anything else. There's nothing about it having to be the person who paid for the ticket who gets the money, it's the person who travels.

Maybe the "fraud" being discussed here is not telling the company paying for the train ticket about the compensation and the employee keeping it for himself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe the "fraud" being discussed here is not telling the company paying for the train ticket about the compensation and the employee keeping it for himself.

No, it was purchasing an Anytime for the reasons of being able to claim a higher Delay Repay and not because one is necessary for the journey.

 

[radamfi]

No, it was purchasing an Anytime for the reasons of being able to claim a higher Delay Repay and not because one is necessary for the journey.

But if you take expenses out of the equation, then the train company will make more money if you buy an Anytime ticket, even allowing for any possible compensation. I'm unclear why the train company would object.

 

[LAX54]

What people don't seem to realise when complaining about rail fares is you're not just paying to get from A to B, you're paying to be taken from A to B.

For example let's say it costs £50 to get from A to B by train and £30 by car. With the car you are just paying for fuel. With the train you are also paying the driver and staff.

If you payed someone to drive you it would cost more than if you drove yourself for the same reason.

Then there is the cost of buying the car, MOT / TAX / INSURANCE / SERVICING ! all adds to to more than £30

But if you want a walk up fare to fly London Glasgow today, BA will only charge you £263, then there is the cost of getting to and from the airport.

 

[PeterC]

Then there is the cost of buying the car, MOT / TAX / INSURANCE / SERVICING ! all adds to to more than £30

But the car owner has paid that anyway. The marginal cost of an additional journey in a modern car is simply petrol and parking plus a tiny amount for wear and tear. Motoring has moved on from the 1970s when cars needed servicing every 6000 miles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if you take expenses out of the equation, then the train company will make more money if you buy an Anytime ticket, even allowing for any possible compensation. I'm unclear why the train company would object.

They wouldn't, the fraud would be against their employer, not the TOC.

In a non-expenses scenario there is no fraud, just a waste of the person's own money which they are entitled to do if they so wish.

 

[Clip]

They wouldn't, the fraud would be against their employer, not the TOC.

In a non-expenses scenario there is no fraud, just a waste of the person's own money which they are entitled to do if they so wish.

I'm sorry but you've gone right off at a tangent here and trying to make up something that isn't there.

Yes some employers may have a strict policy in place for the cheapest ticket ever but even then they just wouldn't give back the whole cost of an anytime ticket so people wouldn't buy it anyway.

There is no fraud whatsoever

 

[tspaul26]

They wouldn't, the fraud would be against their employer, not the TOC.

Might I suggest that you plead the indictment and we can then see how far you get.

 

[Starmill]

That's called "fraud", not "slightly cheeky".

Not if your purchase of an Anytime Return is within the terms of your travel policy it isn't.