Are rail fares overpriced?

[highspeed990]

I think the standard anytime fares are an absolute rip off, but booking in advance, they're quite cheap.

But sometimes people need to travel urgently and they can't book in advance, not to mention how random and complicated it can sometimes be to find cheap fares. Thoughts?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would agree that if a rail fare is higher than the full cost[1] of driving a small, efficient, modern family car (in which, don't forget, you can get 5 people at a squash and 4 in reasonable comfort, certainly better comfort than a Pendolino or Voyager) then it is way, way too high.

This seems to be the case for Anytime fares on most mainline services, particularly the outrageous ones charged by VTWC.

[1] HMRC rate may be 45p/mile, but that's to take into account less efficient cars, as if you're required to use your own car on business the employer doesn't really get to choose what you have. For something like a modern hybrid or small-engined turbo petrol small 5 seat family car it's going to be more like 30p if that.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Definitely illogical. I've saved £80 on Plymouth to Manchester by splitting the journey - £42 versus £124!

 

[yorkie]

Yes, many walk-up rail fares are a rip-off (and some Advance fares are too!) and this has been raised numerous times before.

However if you buy a ticket for a journey priced by a more reasonable operator that is valid for your journey and/or you buy a combination of two or more tickets that, together cover your journey, this can reduce the price. There are websites that will calculate the latter for you.

 

[Master29]

Basically it pays to shop around using TOC`s websites rather than the myriad of companies who take commission. I spend ages doing it, rearranging and splitting journeys if necessary which I don`t mind but for some it may be considered time consuming.

 

[6Gman]

I would agree that if a rail fare is higher than the full cost[1] of driving a small, efficient, modern family car (in which, don't forget, you can get 5 people at a squash and 4 in reasonable comfort, certainly better comfort than a Pendolino or Voyager) then it is way, way too high.

This seems to be the case for Anytime fares on most mainline services, particularly the outrageous ones charged by VTWC.

[1] HMRC rate may be 45p/mile, but that's to take into account less efficient cars, as if you're required to use your own car on business the employer doesn't really get to choose what you have. For something like a modern hybrid or small-engined turbo petrol small 5 seat family car it's going to be more like 30p if that.

That may be your opinion but I don't agree. I find (even) Voyagers and Pendolini more comfortable than any car. Indeed I find Pacers more comfortable ...

And much more relaxing than driving. (Or being driven by some drivers )

 

[6Gman]

More seriously, the dearest fares are too expensive; the cheapest fares are too cheap.

 

[deltic]

What is a rip-off. Are TOCs making ridiculously high profits? Is HM Treasury earning billions from rail travellers? Are TOCs highly inefficient? Are rail staff paid far too much? Are the ROSCOs and Network Rail ripping-off TOCs? If you believe the answer to the above questions is mainly yes then you may be right to suggest rail fares are a rip off. If not and taking into account the vast majority of rail passengers are very highly subsidised I'm not sure how you can argue that rail fares are a rip-off. Just because they cost more than you are willing to pay doesnt mean they are a rip off.

 

[ashworth]

I think the biggest rip off is where the single fare is priced only just below the price of a return. Often the difference in price can be as little as 10p.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is a rip-off. Are TOCs making ridiculously high profits? Is HM Treasury earning billions from rail travellers? Are TOCs highly inefficient? Are rail staff paid far too much? Are the ROSCOs and Network Rail ripping-off TOCs? If you believe the answer to the above questions is mainly yes then you may be right to suggest rail fares are a rip off. If not and taking into account the vast majority of rail passengers are very highly subsidised I'm not sure how you can argue that rail fares are a rip-off. Just because they cost more than you are willing to pay doesnt mean they are a rip off.

OK, fair point. They (the high-priced Anytime fares costing more than a car journey for 4-5 people in a small family car) are poor value, then.

 

[highspeed990]

What people don't seem to realise when complaining about rail fares is you're not just paying to get from A to B, you're paying to be taken from A to B.

For example let's say it costs £50 to get from A to B by train and £30 by car. With the car you are just paying for fuel. With the train you are also paying the driver and staff.

If you payed someone to drive you it would cost more than if you drove yourself for the same reason.

 

[johntea]

You can’t compare a car to a train just based on filling up the tank, try adding the costs of maintaining the car, parking charges, if you’re off to a social the fact there has to be one or several designated drivers, it soon starts to add up!

Just takes patience to sit down and work out your journey, this forum is very helpful too I’ve had virtually complete freedom of the Northern Rail network this weekend for £17.50, granted a newspaper offer but offers like that can offset the times you have to pay slightly more than you would like for a fare!

You can also break your journey on rail too in major cities and towns rather than a motorway service station

 

[cactustwirly]

It depends on the TOC and the time of day, some of the fares on GWR in Devon/Cornwall/Bristol area are very reasonable. However XC and Northern fares (outside PTE areas) are disgustingly expensive.

 

[yorkie]

What is a rip-off. Are TOCs making ridiculously high profits? Is HM Treasury earning billions from rail travellers? Are TOCs highly inefficient? Are rail staff paid far too much? Are the ROSCOs and Network Rail ripping-off TOCs? If you believe the answer to the above questions is mainly yes then you may be right to suggest rail fares are a rip off. If not and taking into account the vast majority of rail passengers are very highly subsidised I'm not sure how you can argue that rail fares are a rip-off. Just because they cost more than you are willing to pay doesnt mean they are a rip off.

That's your opinion, but it's subjective. There is no doubt in my mind that some fares are a rip-off. You are welcome to have a different opinion but I am not going to change my opinion on the matter.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rip-off

something that is not worth what you pay for it

 

[highspeed990]

You can’t compare a car to a train just based on filling up the tank, try adding the costs of maintaining the car, parking charges, if you’re off to a social the fact there has to be one or several designated drivers, it soon starts to add up!

Just takes patience to sit down and work out your journey, this forum is very helpful too I’ve had virtually complete freedom of the Northern Rail network this weekend for £17.50, granted a newspaper offer but offers like that can offset the times you have to pay slightly more than you would like for a fare!

You can also break your journey on rail too in major cities and towns rather than a motorway service station

Exactly my point, so trains aren't that bad value for money compared to cars.

Also does anyone know, if you buy a anytime ticket on a route used by different operators, which operator would get the money, seeing as you can use any of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can’t compare a car to a train just based on filling up the tank, try adding the costs of maintaining the car, parking charges, if you’re off to a social the fact there has to be one or several designated drivers, it soon starts to add up!

I certainly was not comparing based on just filling the tank. There are plenty of Anytime fares which are higher, sometimes much higher, than even the HMRC rate of 45p/mile, which even includes a contribution towards depreciation.

HMRC believe the costs of a marginal journey (fuel and wear/tear) are 25p/mile, the rate paid after 10,000 business miles per annum. As most people purchase a car as a lifestyle choice, that figure is the important one (and many small cars will be even cheaper to run than that). Even adding parking etc, that makes most Anytime fares extremely poor value, certainly the punitively priced ones like Manchester to London.

And for that you will often be standing for some or all of the journey, or shoehorned into a seat with hardly any legroom.

You can also break your journey on rail too in major cities and towns rather than a motorway service station

You can break your journey wherever you like in a car, though some places may be more convenient than others (and . Sat-navving to a suitable out of town Tesco, Asda, Waitrose or similar is often a very good value and convenient choice. Free parking, toilets and much better value cafe etc than services.

 

[deltic]

fair comment - I had a different defination of rip-off in mind.

Problem with definition you quote is that we all have a different view of value for money so we will never agree whether fares are rip offs or not

 

[30907]

I think the biggest rip off is where the single fare is priced only just below the price of a return. Often the difference in price can be as little as 10p.

You mean, where the return is only slightly more than the single!
Historically, that is how cheap fares started and remained that way till relatively recently - and that's certainly the case with Saver and Cheap Day Return (as was) fares. Logic being that a one-way journey is less price sensitive.
Agree with you that an Anytime return fare should NOT be hugely discounted to that extent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly my point, so trains aren't that bad value for money compared to cars.

Some fares are, some aren't.

A LM Only Super Off Peak Return Milton Keynes Central to Crewe is excellent value at £25. OK, the journey was slower than VT, but in a 350/1 in substantially better comfort with substantially better luggage capacity and a far better window view. I have used the LM services when on Any Permitted tickets before, so paying less to use them is a bonus. It wasn't even overcrowded for once.

An Anytime Return from Manchester to London at over £300 is a rip-off. It's not only poor value, it's deliberately price-gouging. It is mostly cheaper to fly, and flying was always seen as the premium option before.

Also does anyone know, if you buy a anytime ticket on a route used by different operators, which operator would get the money, seeing as you can use any of them.

There's a computer system called ORCATS (I forget what it's called) which is used to apportion it based on which services are likely to be used by passengers based on timings (and I think on surveys). As an aside, an "ORCATS raid" is a train service timetabled specifically to increase revenue share while not necessarily increasing passenger loadings from that flow, or adding a sham First Class area (e.g. Standard seats with antimacassars and no divider) with the specific intention of getting money from Any Permitted fares and similar rather than to attract actual First Class custom to the services.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Rail is an extremely expensive form of transport. Outside PTE areas even short journeys will cost more than they would in a car, even taking into account the sunk costs of running a car.

Whether it is "good value" depends on what your criteria are. Sometimes it is- no hassle parking, you can have a drink, quicker- and sometimes it isn't.

As for whether TOCs make obscene profits, we all know the answer to that...

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for whether TOCs make obscene profits, we all know the answer to that...

...which is that they don't. Far more profit is made on buses than on trains.

I think what the industry needs is a serious look at its cost base, and some of the things it gold-plates that it really doesn't need to do, or could do much more cheaply. "Railway inflation" of a job costing more just because it's on the railway (because, for example, the railway chooses a custom rather than off the shelf option) really does need reining in, as does the "absolute safety at any financial cost" mentality, when the effect of the latter is to drive people onto the roads and thus means they are at greater risk overall.

Really, to me, safety spending should be considered across the UK's whole transport system, not just the railway.

 

[SS4]

Also does anyone know, if you buy a anytime ticket on a route used by different operators, which operator would get the money, seeing as you can use any of them.

It's shared by the operators who run the route but what % each get is not published.

As for whether fares are overpriced there can be no simple answer because there is so much variance in fares. Anytime tickets are most likely to be rip offs because their audience is largely captive but where passengers can afford to be picky or a less "premium" experience is where the fares are no longer rip offs. AP tickets can be very good value indeed for the traveller willing to travel in the middle of the day or take a slower route.

I find it unfair to compare to the car as they both have different use cases. The coach and, for local journeys, the bus are also options. Some of the Platinum branded buses around here are nicer than the 323s and have a similar journey time for the journeys I make

 

[Starmill]

Very good value tickets I have bought in the past few years:

Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads Anytime Day Return £3
Neston to Wrexham General Anytime Day Return £5.70
Greenfield to Orrell Off-Peak Day Return £5.90
Perth to Stirling Off-Peak Day Return £8.20
Milton Keynes Central to Bedford Off-Peak Day Return £8.20
Cheltenham Spa to Birstol Temple Meads Off-Peak Day Return £9.40
Alnmouth to Newcastle Off-Peak Day Return £10.90
York to Saltburn 'Not Via Darlington' Off-Peak Day Return £14.30
Dunkeld & Birnam to Glasgow Cen/Qst Off-Peak Day Return £15.80
Barrow-in-Furness to Carlisle 'Via Sellafield' Off-Peak Day Return £16.40
Southampton Central to London Terminals 'Three Bridges' Super Off-Peak Day Return £18.20
Dumfries to Glasgow Cen/Qst Off-Peak Day Return £18.90
Wolverhampton to London Euston 'LM Mon-Thur Only' Super Off-Peak Return £19.50
Margate to Southampton Central 'Via Barnham' Off-Peak Day Return £21
Exeter St Davids to Penzance Off-Peak Day Return £21.10

Honourable Mentions for:
Sheffield to Derby First Off-Peak Day Return £17.40
Plymouth to Newquay First Off-Peak Day Return £19.80
Wolverhampton to London Terminals Super Off-Peak Reuturn £35
Wrexham General to London Terminals 'Via High Wycombe' Super Off-Peak Return £39.70
Preston to Glasgow Central 'Via Carlisle' Off-Peak Day Return £40.80
London Terminals to Penzance Super Off-Peak Single £63.70

Of course, there are many loopholes which are amazing value, but I shan't be publishing them here

For each of these I have used there has been a rip-off trip I couldn't really afford which I made anyway or more likely I couldn't go by rail (or couldn't go at all) because ticket prices were ridiculous.

 

[Starmill]

I would agree that if a rail fare is higher than the full cost[1] of driving a small, efficient, modern family car (in which, don't forget, you can get 5 people at a squash and 4 in reasonable comfort, certainly better comfort than a Pendolino or Voyager) then it is way, way too high.

The vast majority of journeys then?

Rail is an extremely expensive form of transport. Outside PTE areas even short journeys will cost more than they would in a car, even taking into account the sunk costs of running a car.

This is absolutely true. What's more, most people won't take these fixed costs into account. If the car simply cannot be given up either because it's required for work or because public transport does not exist to many of the places one goes, there is actually a strong argument that the marginal cost only (mainly just fuel and marginal maintenance) is the appropriate cost calculation. Of course, whenever I point this out, I am usually shouted down on these forums.

The only way to stop us from being a nation of car users is to make the alternatives viable. Of course this might require more taxpayers money and that might not be politically popular, which I do accept. But only because people and governments are happy to create congestion, noise and environmental damage both in terms of air pollution and higher carbon emissions by having more driving than is really neccesary.

On the other hand the railway does have some inherent advantages: principally comfort (mostly for the benefit of the driver this one, as a car passenger it's very likely you'll be more comfortable than on a train!) and speed. The railway does well from exploiting these and should focus on providing more of both as long-term policy. The risk in the long term is the electric and self-driving car, and more scarily, the electric aircraft.

More seriously, the dearest fares are too expensive; the cheapest fares are too cheap.

A good way to put it.

 

[baz962]

You can’t compare a car to a train just based on filling up the tank, try adding the costs of maintaining the car, parking charges, if you’re off to a social the fact there has to be one or several designated drivers, it soon starts to add up!

Just takes patience to sit down and work out your journey, this forum is very helpful too I’ve had virtually complete freedom of the Northern Rail network this weekend for £17.50, granted a newspaper offer but offers like that can offset the times you have to pay slightly more than you would like for a fare!

You can also break your journey on rail too in major cities and towns rather than a motorway service station

I agree generally I only use train's occasionally to get to London and get a zones 1 to 6 travelcard and using my network railcard,
during the week my return is 18 pounds and something pence and can use the tubes allday. Now if I went by car say a tenner in fuel( I live in Bedford) plus wear and tear plus sitting in a shed load of traffic then congestion charge then parking, plus if you go several places parking again and again as opposed to hopping the tube and I get chauffered.I think that's a bargain by train.

 

[cuccir]

One person's rip-off is another person's good deal! A Newcastle-London Anytime Return is £298. If I were travelling privately, then that would be prohibitively expensive. It seems a rip-off.

And yet there are ways in which it might be quite good value.

If I discovered now that for work, I wanted to be in London for work tomorrow morning, then what else would I do? A flight at such short notice would cost £306 one way. To me, my car would be cheaper: with a modern diesel car, my fuel costs would be about £30 each way. Even throwing in an amount for wear and tear, that's unlikely to be more than £50 each way in costs. However, as pointed out previously if I were charging my employer, I'd be able to charge a higher rate. Not at work now so can't access that but let's guess that it's 35p a mile. That makes the cost about £105 each way.

But the car would take about 2 hours longer than the train, imagining I only need one break which is a minimum. Hourly paid staff at my pay scale at work earn £48 an hour. Furthermore, on the train, I might reasonbly expect to do the equivalent of 90 minutes work. In the car, I wouldn't. So we could in theory add £100 each way to the cost of driving, and deduct £72 from the train. That brings out equivalent costs to my employer of:

Train - £77 each way
Car - £205 each way
Plane - £212 each way (1 hour wages deducted for faster travel + 1 hour deducted for work done while travelling)

Now that doesn't work for every traveller, and if I was travelling for leisure then the train is much poorer value. But for many employers, making calculations such as this, it is quite well priced!

 

[highspeed990]

Some fares are, some aren't.

A LM Only Super Off Peak Return Milton Keynes Central to Crewe is excellent value at £25. OK, the journey was slower than VT, but in a 350/1 in substantially better comfort with substantially better luggage capacity and a far better window view. I have used the LM services when on Any Permitted tickets before, so paying less to use them is a bonus. It wasn't even overcrowded for once.

An Anytime Return from Manchester to London at over £300 is a rip-off. It's not only poor value, it's deliberately price-gouging. It is mostly cheaper to fly, and flying was always seen as the premium option before.



There's a computer system called ORCATS (I forget what it's called) which is used to apportion it based on which services are likely to be used by passengers based on timings (and I think on surveys). As an aside, an "ORCATS raid" is a train service timetabled specifically to increase revenue share while not necessarily increasing passenger loadings from that flow, or adding a sham First Class area (e.g. Standard seats with antimacassars and no divider) with the specific intention of getting money from Any Permitted fares and similar rather than to attract actual First Class custom to the services.

Is this why some train companies stop at more stations at peak? But then again some skip stations.

 

[Starmill]

An Anytime Return from Manchester to London at over £300 is a rip-off. It's not only poor value, it's deliberately price-gouging. It is mostly cheaper to fly, and flying was always seen as the premium option before.

£338 now Recently increased from £335. It was £329 only a year and a half or so ago.

 

[deltic]

Who actually buys an anytime return from Manchester to London and why would you do so

 

[yorksrob]

The vast majority of journeys then?



This is absolutely true. What's more, most people won't take these fixed costs into account. If the car simply cannot be given up either because it's required for work or because public transport does not exist to many of the places one goes, there is actually a strong argument that the marginal cost only (mainly just fuel and marginal maintenance) is the appropriate cost calculation. Of course, whenever I point this out, I am usually shouted down on these forums.

The only way to stop us from being a nation of car users is to make the alternatives viable. Of course this might require more taxpayers money and that might not be politically popular, which I do accept. But only because people and governments are happy to create congestion, noise and environmental damage both in terms of air pollution and higher carbon emissions by having more driving than is really neccesary.

On the other hand the railway does have some inherent advantages: principally comfort (mostly for the benefit of the driver this one, as a car passenger it's very likely you'll be more comfortable than on a train!) and speed. The railway does well from exploiting these and should focus on providing more of both as long-term policy. The risk in the long term is the electric and self-driving car, and more scarily, the electric aircraft.



A good way to put it.

I agree with most of that, although as a non-driver, I've never found a car to be more comfortable than a train.