Are RailCo's legally obliged to sell you cheapest ticket

[Minstral25]

Not sure if this type of question has been covered before and if it has please direct me. It's the principle I am trying to understand not the specifics.

I have noticed that at my local ticket office (Redhill) they are selling weekly season tickets for London Bridge as London Terminals to passengers that only want London Bridge as there is no London Bridge only option from Redhill =- cost is £65.

However this ticket is more expensive than a London Bridge only weekly season ticket from Gatwick valid only on Southern services (£59.80). All but one service from Redhill to London Bridge is operated by Southern. The Gatwick ticket is fully valid through Redhill.

So are they doing something wrong here? Or is it up to the passenger to know these things.

 

[causton]

It is up to the passengers. We may offer alternative tickets (even then I do not know if we are strictly allowed to offer splits etc) but in no way must we find the cheapest ticket. Who knows, there might be an even cheaper ticket than the one you said but we don't have the time, nor resources, to look up every single journey for the cheapest ticket or combination of tickets for every customer in the booking office! If you want that specific ticket it is one you will have to ask for yourself. I could understand if it was from Redhill to London Bridge only Southern only and they were not offering it, but we won't go up and down the line looking for alternatives!

 

[455driver]

They have to sell the cheapest APPROPRIATE ticket, if they are being asked for a ticket from Redhill then that is what they will be offered.

Ticket offices should not offer splits but will obviously sell them if asked for the tickets specifically, they won't start trawling through to see if there are any that save a fee quid.

 

[maniacmartin]

They are obliged under the TSA to offer the cheapest appropriate fare for the flow that is requested.

i.e. If a passenger requests a season from Redhill to London, then the cheapest appropriate ticket from Redhill to London should be offered. They are not obliged to search for split tickets, tickets from other stations and whatnot. This would cause huge queues at the ticket office and could cause other TOCs to complain if they suggested a loophole ticket that was revenue extracting to the other TOC.

That said, passengers are free to research tickets in their own time, and if they ask for a specific ticket, it should be sold - just the onus is on the passenger to do the legwork

 

[yorkie]

Not sure if this type of question has been covered before and if it has please direct me. It's the principle I am trying to understand not the specifics.

I have noticed that at my local ticket office (Redhill) they are selling weekly season tickets for London Bridge as London Terminals to passengers that only want London Bridge as there is no London Bridge only option from Redhill =- cost is £65.

However this ticket is more expensive than a London Bridge only weekly season ticket from Gatwick valid only on Southern services (£59.80). All but one service from Redhill to London Bridge is operated by Southern. The Gatwick ticket is fully valid through Redhill.

So are they doing something wrong here? Or is it up to the passenger to know these things.

No, they are not doing anything wrong. Passengers would have to specifically ask for the ticket if they want it.

By the way there are no trains operated by Southern any more, as that TOC is now defunct. The trains on this route are all operated by the largest TOC in the UK: Govia Thameslink Railway (there is a thread to discuss the matter of ticket validity across Govia Thameslink Railway's brands, so I won't go into that here!).

 

[Clip]

It will take more than a year for people to change what they call them - I still call them southern as I do GNER.

 

[455driver]

I still call them southern as I do GNER.

I call them East Coast, just as they were when we had a proper railway!

 

[crehld]

They have to sell the cheapest APPROPRIATE ticket, if they are being asked for a ticket from Redhill then that is what they will be offered.

Ticket offices should not offer splits but will obviously sell them if asked for the tickets specifically, they won't start trawling through to see if there are any that save a fee quid.

To be fair many ticket offices I've been to have actively informed me of a cheaper split or day ranger available, without me promoting them. For example:

"So long as you're going that way, it's cheaper to split your ticket at Derby. Do you want to do that instead?"
or
"Are you coming back today? Did you know the West Midlands Day Ranger is cheaper than an off-peak return to Worcester?"

 

[Clip]

@crehld - Im sure some do but they are not obliged to.

 

[crehld]

@crehld - Im sure some do but they are not obliged to.

I'm sure they're not, but I thought for the purpose of balance it would be nice to post an example of ticket offices showing some initiative.

 

[Clip]

Which is great but they may have actually been told not to do it by their line manager.

But always nice to hear a good story about the railway.


As a side note I notice your thread on the good stories didn't have many posts. Doesn't surprise me

 

[MikeWh]

I call them East Coast, just as they were when we had a proper railway!

I know plenty of people who are convinced that BR still run all the trains.

 

[CyrusWuff]

There are still people who ask for Capitalcards instead of Travelcards...and those who ask for whatever their local equivalent of a Travelcard is called.

 

[TheEdge]

I'm sure they're not, but I thought for the purpose of balance it would be nice to post an example of ticket offices showing some initiative.

But is it really good service?

There is a very well known split on the GEML, lots of regulars use it, leisure travelers don't tend to. One ticket office (not sure if its the whole office or just one seller) has a habit of giving people the split when they ask for the normal ticket and not telling them. Net result is people thrusting a heap of tickets at inspectors, normally accompanied by "not sure what they've given me" and on occasion, because the split station is one that is sometimes missed out, leaving unknowing passengers open to PFs and or new tickets.

 

[455driver]

But is it really good service?

There is a very well known split on the GEML, lots of regulars use it, leisure travelers don't tend to. One ticket office (not sure if its the whole office or just one seller) has a habit of giving people the split when they ask for the normal ticket and not telling them. Net result is people thrusting a heap of tickets at inspectors, normally accompanied by "not sure what they've given me" and on occasion, because the split station is one that is sometimes missed out, leaving unknowing passengers open to PFs and or new tickets.

Plus of course that next time they go to buy the same ticket they will be sold the normal one and then kick off about being over-charged etc!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will take more than a year for people to change what they call them - I still call them southern as I do GNER.

People will still call that bit of them Southern as the branding isn't going away.

 

[Mag_seven]

I present a tin of beans for payment at a supermarket checkout - is the checkout operator obliged to tell me that a cheaper tin of beans is available if there is one?

 

[yorkie]

I present a tin of beans for payment at a supermarket checkout - is the checkout operator obliged to tell me that a cheaper tin of beans is available if there is one?

No, but be careful with supermarket analogies because they often do not work. They are best avoided.

The lack of a common 'National Conditions of Consumption' and 'Association of Retail Operating Companies' can invalidate many such analogies, making the analogies useful for nothing other than their comedy value.

 

[najaB]

I present a tin of beans for payment at a supermarket checkout - is the checkout operator obliged to tell me that a cheaper tin of beans is available if there is one?

I'm more interested in using beans for payment, it could save me a fortune!

 

[Minstral25]

Interesting points and I'm happy not to go into the details of what's GTR and what isn't. Thank you for contributing.

The tickets being sold for a Redhill - London Bridge journey could arguably not be the appropriate ticket. You are not asking for London Terminals ticket and the Gatwick to London Bridge ticket is more appropriate and cheaper for the passenger. It's a straightforward ticket no splitting or complexities.


It's virtually impossible for customers to find this out unless it's publicised - they (railway companies) are the experts and they should assist the passenger get the best fare.

 

[Hadders]

The tickets being sold for a Redhill - London Bridge journey could arguably not be the appropriate ticket. You are not asking for London Terminals ticket and the Gatwick to London Bridge ticket is more appropriate and cheaper for the passenger. It's a straightforward ticket no splitting or complexities.

I think you've answered your own question.

A Redhill to London Terminals ticket isn't a Gatwick Airport to London Bridge ticket. Consequently if I ask for a Redhill to London Terminals ticket that is what I should expect to be sold.

The Redhill to London Terminals ticket allows travel to Victoria, Charing Cross, Waterloo, Waterloo East, London Bridge, Canon Street and City Thameslink.

The Gatwick Airport to London Bridge ticket is only valid to London Bridge. It is complicated but if you want to come up with an anomaly or loophole fare you have to be prepared to put in the leg work yourself. It is far easier to do these days as fares data is available on-line which wasn't the case years ago.

 

[yorkie]

The tickets being sold for a Redhill - London Bridge journey could arguably not be the appropriate ticket.

I don't quite agree, however I do accept your next point...

You are not asking for London Terminals ticket and the Gatwick to London Bridge ticket is more appropriate and cheaper for the passenger. It's a straightforward ticket no splitting or complexities.

I agree that, while "splitting" is an example of a way of potentially saving money that booking clerks are not supposed to offer without prompting, it is a bit different to the matter at hand.

It's a fair point that if a passenger asks for something that does not exist (in this case a cheaper fare that only allows travel from Redhill into London Bridge) then they are going to have to be offered an alternative. In this case the Train Company will probably argue that it is the destination that should be changed, but your argument is that the origin should be changed. When you look at it that way, you have a point.

However where your argument isn't quite so solid is that London Bridge is a member of London Terminals, so it could be argued you are still being sold a ticket to London, albeit a ticket that offers a wider choice of termini than requested.

Perhaps you should contact your local media and MP about this? They might be interested.

It's virtually impossible for customers to find this out unless it's publicised

Difficult, yes, but not quite virtually impossible.

they (railway companies) are the experts and they should assist the passenger get the best fare.

I don't agree that the Train Companies should always ensure the passenger has the cheapest valid ticket, regardless of origin/destination. It would be impractical.

There are examples where I think the rail industry could do better and I would like to see the rail industry commit to providing the cheapest combination where a through fare does not exist. But I think it would be difficult to justify saying a Train Company should offer passengers tickets which can be used to 'start short' or 'finish short' and would potentially cause huge queues at ticket offices and generate tricky disputes.