Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bletchleyite]

What do you think is poor about the OBS compromise? [genuine question]

They don't really appear to serve much of a purpose. They walk up and down the train looking bored and forlorn, only coming into use in the unlikely event of a wheelchair using passenger (who could be boarded by platform staff at many stations).

They may be useful in event of an incident as a second member of staff, but they give the impression of being there "just in case" rather than being particularly useful most of the time.

And, of course, they are a second member of staff, which means no money has been saved by switching to DCO.

So basically they have most of the disadvantages of guard operation with almost none of the advantages.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a good point. I suspect the only way of getting a true turn up and go service for wheelchair passengers is to guarantee a second person on the train. Would the DfT accept though?

At larger stations, platform staff can load/unload wheelchair users. An OBS or guard could be provided for those trains calling at smaller stations that don't[1]. Or, as you say, we go for a big project like the Swiss of rolling out level boarding, which would be great but VERY costly. (The Swiss have converted to a single platform height at all but the tiniest stations, and even those are being converted or closed over time, with the new rolling stock all built to that height, so the regional network has near 100% level boarding with IC to follow as the traditional LHCS dies out - and the regional network is 100% DOO).

[1] Example, the East Grinstead line - an OBS/guard would be on board only between East Croydon and East Grinstead.

(The level boarding no-gap thing is a key reason why I support DOO - I mean actual DOO, no second member of staff - on Merseyrail but not Northern)

 

[Moonshot]

Almost all Guards I know including myself would have no problems with Driver Opening and Guards closing. That would be a win for all except the Shareholders and Dft

Myself included as well, would be even better with door controls at each door as well. Unlikely to happen though

 

[Bletchleyite]

Myself included as well, would be even better with door controls at each door as well. Unlikely to happen though

FWIW this is the model in most European countries (unless, on old stock, the doors just release under 5km/h). Seems to work well enough. Driver releases (or automatic on older stock), guard uses a UIC square key to close.

I think it would probably be the best compromise if the DfT can stomach it, as it gives the key "running time" advantage of DOO.

 

[Moonshot]

FWIW this is the model in most European countries (unless, on old stock, the doors just release under 5km/h). Seems to work well enough. Driver releases (or automatic on older stock), guard uses a UIC square key to close.

I think it would probably be the best compromise if the DfT can stomach it, as it gives the key "running time" advantage of DOO.

You would have to wonder if that would happen IF Arriva were allowed to make a commercial decision free of DFT micromanaging this franchise. I rather suspect it would as the running time as you point out would improve a bit fpr starters.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You would have to wonder if that would happen IF Arriva were allowed to make a commercial decision free of DFT micromanaging this franchise. I rather suspect it would as the running time as you point out would improve a bit fpr starters.

I similarly suspect it would, just like it did at Southern (prior to the DfT meddling), at Southeastern (I assume, as the stock is the same), and at VTWC and XC. And I *think* GWR too now, except HSTs and where existing DOO applies. And Deutsche Bahn. And......

 

[Carlisle]

Driver Opening and Guards closing. That would be a win for all except the Shareholders and Dft

Id assume it makes little sense for DFT/Govt to invest many millions in the latest trains, electrification, GSMR, resignalling, modern station facilities etc only then to operate the system long term in a rather inefficient and outdated manor, given northern isn’t profitable

 

[74A]

FWIW this is the model in most European countries (unless, on old stock, the doors just release under 5km/h). Seems to work well enough. Driver releases (or automatic on older stock), guard uses a UIC square key to close.

I think it would probably be the best compromise if the DfT can stomach it, as it gives the key "running time" advantage of DOO.

You don't get the running time advantage from despatch however

 

[Andrew32]

Aslef letter to members last year

 

[johntea]

Skipton and Harrogate still have quite late trains running out of Leeds despite the strike, is there a particular reason for this?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Today in "Rubbish Journalism", we've just seen a BBC Look North (Yorkshire) reporter (didn't catch his name) refer to other places in the UK which have Driver Only Operation... One of which is apparently the Docklands Light Railway!

 

[Carlisle]

other places in the UK which have Driver Only Operation... One of which is apparently the Docklands Light Railway!

I was under the impression train captains were qualified to drive during degraded working etc therefore if so surely it’s correct

 

[Andyh82]

Today in "Rubbish Journalism", we've just seen a BBC Look North (Yorkshire) reporter (didn't catch his name) refer to other places in the UK which have Driver Only Operation... One of which is apparently the Docklands Light Railway!

Were they not highlighting high profile networks that don't have a conductor.

To be fair the story was one of the best I've seen, they even mentioned how the roll out of DOO is in the franchise spec laid down by the government and clearly pointed out that conductors are not being removed altogether.

If you thought that was bad, you should have seen the quality of the vox pops on Calendar, literally the first 3 people they found, one who mentioned that her train up from London had been fine.

 

[pt_mad]

I think to me the sensible area is somewhere in between. The impression I have is that the unions seek simple conservatism i.e. that nothing ever changes (other than wages increasing annually at a suitable rate). Whereas I feel business owners should have the right to change and grow their business as they wish, provided it doesn't cause too much of a problem to staff. So to me if they want DOO and the Government think DOO is safe enough, then I am fine with DOO in some contexts.

But I also think effort should go into ensuring that doesn't just mean mass redundancy of guards, but retraining into other roles etc and preservation of pay levels, which is what I think the Unions need to fight for, not just the simple "no change" line which they will, like it or not, lose.

For Northern Connect, I can see two possible compromises - a Strathclyde style agreement (i.e. OBS a likes) or driver release, guard close - I'd see either as sensible but I can really see strengths in the former on a network with low platform staffing, low ticket barrier provision and substantial on board sales not going to go away any time soon. For a commuter service, to be honest I would go for full DOO with Penalty Fares provided an accessibility solution can be found like the Merseyrail level boarding project, with the money used to increase BTP and Merseyrail-style Byelaw Officer provision on known problem trains e.g. in the late evening.

Forgive me. What is the Strathclyde agreement?

 

[Sleepy]

Scotrail DOO operated routes should have a TE on board all services - moinitored closely by Scottish government with fines if franchise agreement not adhered to.

 

[pt_mad]

Scotrail DOO operated routes should have a TE on board all services - moinitored closely by Scottish government with fines if franchise agreement not adhered to.

Thank you. What is a TE?

 

[IanXC]

Thank you. What is a TE?

Ticket Examiner.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I was under the impression train captains were qualified to drive during degraded working etc therefore if so surely it’s correct

Perhaps, but it would've taken the reporter or his assistant 2 minutes to check his notes beforehand and think "nah, I won't mention the DLR, it just muddies the waters... especially as most viewers of Look North won't have heard of it, and would probably think a driverless train was witchcraft".

For removal of doubt:

 

[CN75]

You would have to wonder if that would happen IF Arriva were allowed to make a commercial decision free of DFT micromanaging this franchise. I rather suspect it would as the running time as you point out would improve a bit fpr starters.

Unfortunately the reality is Arriva have commercially contracted to introduce DOO for at least 50% of passenger mileage on the Northern franchise. The DfT have agreed to cover the financial costs of industrial action to get this achieved. If Arriva made any decision or deal with the RMT that did not meet the DOO contract clause in full, they would be in breach of their franchise agreement. The penalty could be financial or the loss of their contract. So the only commercial decision that makes sense for Arriva is to carry on with the plan and keep trying to get the unions to support their changes. The government has effectively bought something it wants to see happen from a private company and will hold them to account for it. It’s the same with all the others. As there was practically no DOO since privatisation when the operators carried commercial risk, and staff/subsidy costs just increased disproportionately, the government are pursuing a different strategy with the new franchises. It does depend on what political party guides the transport department’s strategy. However the Conservatives are not likely to be voted out until 2021, so it is easy for the Labour Party to say whatever appeals to get support without actually having to do anything.

Guards only closing the doors doesn’t do anything to achieve the benefits the government sees with DOO. As the franchise agreement says the trains on Northern must be capable of running with only the driver involved and no other franchise employee, Arriva can only deliver that (unless the government changes it’s mind and rewrites the contract, maybe even paying Arriva compensation for making changes).

If the strikes carry on then a possible outcome is Arriva voluntarily giving up the franchise, but if they do that they are unlikely to get any more franchises for some time. The DfT have clearly left managing the driver aspect to Arriva and Arriva have committed to delivering it by a particular date. Legally they can force through any changes they like, but it could get very messy with driver strikes in the meantime. ASLEF strategically won’t want any strikes, as all it will do is cut their bargaining power and strength down over time. Arriva can’t offer the RMT anything in any dispute talks that doesn’t achieve the 50% DOO requirement and are clearly not pretending they can, given how unsuccessful they have been.

 

[mandub]

Can we just pin this post to the top of the thread so everyone has to read it before posting the same old points again and again.

Unfortunately the reality is Arriva have commercially contracted to introduce DOO for at least 50% of passenger mileage on the Northern franchise. The DfT have agreed to cover the financial costs of industrial action to get this achieved. If Arriva made any decision or deal with the RMT that did not meet the DOO contract clause in full, they would be in breach of their franchise agreement. The penalty could be financial or the loss of their contract. So the only commercial decision that makes sense for Arriva is to carry on with the plan and keep trying to get the unions to support their changes. The government has effectively bought something it wants to see happen from a private company and will hold them to account for it. It’s the same with all the others. As there was practically no DOO since privatisation when the operators carried commercial risk, and staff/subsidy costs just increased disproportionately, the government are pursuing a different strategy with the new franchises. It does depend on what political party guides the transport department’s strategy. However the Conservatives are not likely to be voted out until 2021, so it is easy for the Labour Party to say whatever appeals to get support without actually having to do anything.

Guards only closing the doors doesn’t do anything to achieve the benefits the government sees with DOO. As the franchise agreement says the trains on Northern must be capable of running with only the driver involved and no other franchise employee, Arriva can only deliver that (unless the government changes it’s mind and rewrites the contract, maybe even paying Arriva compensation for making changes).

If the strikes carry on then a possible outcome is Arriva voluntarily giving up the franchise, but if they do that they are unlikely to get any more franchises for some time. The DfT have clearly left managing the driver aspect to Arriva and Arriva have committed to delivering it by a particular date. Legally they can force through any changes they like, but it could get very messy with driver strikes in the meantime. ASLEF strategically won’t want any strikes, as all it will do is cut their bargaining power and strength down over time. Arriva can’t offer the RMT anything in any dispute talks that doesn’t achieve the 50% DOO requirement and are clearly not pretending they can, given how unsuccessful they have been.

 

[Mathew S]

it would've taken the reporter or his assistant 2 minutes to check his notes beforehand and think "nah, I won't mention the DLR

The reporter may well not have known how the DLR operates themselves, will probably not have done their own research, and almost certainly didn't have the time to check the research they were given by a producer. Said producer probably saw that it's a driverless operation and so included it in that basis. Either way, it's a tiny, and pretty inconsequential, inaccuracy in an otherwise decent report, I think we can let it go.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Unfortunately the reality is Arriva have commercially contracted to introduce DOO for at least 50% of passenger mileage on the Northern franchise. The DfT have agreed to cover the financial costs of industrial action to get this achieved. If Arriva made any decision or deal with the RMT that did not meet the DOO contract clause in full, they would be in breach of their franchise agreement. The penalty could be financial or the loss of their contract. So the only commercial decision that makes sense for Arriva is to carry on with the plan and keep trying to get the unions to support their changes. The government has effectively bought something it wants to see happen from a private company and will hold them to account for it. It’s the same with all the others. As there was practically no DOO since privatisation when the operators carried commercial risk, and staff/subsidy costs just increased disproportionately, the government are pursuing a different strategy with the new franchises. It does depend on what political party guides the transport department’s strategy. However the Conservatives are not likely to be voted out until 2021, so it is easy for the Labour Party to say whatever appeals to get support without actually having to do anything.

Guards only closing the doors doesn’t do anything to achieve the benefits the government sees with DOO. As the franchise agreement says the trains on Northern must be capable of running with only the driver involved and no other franchise employee, Arriva can only deliver that (unless the government changes it’s mind and rewrites the contract, maybe even paying Arriva compensation for making changes).

If the strikes carry on then a possible outcome is Arriva voluntarily giving up the franchise, but if they do that they are unlikely to get any more franchises for some time. The DfT have clearly left managing the driver aspect to Arriva and Arriva have committed to delivering it by a particular date. Legally they can force through any changes they like, but it could get very messy with driver strikes in the meantime. ASLEF strategically won’t want any strikes, as all it will do is cut their bargaining power and strength down over time. Arriva can’t offer the RMT anything in any dispute talks that doesn’t achieve the 50% DOO requirement and are clearly not pretending they can, given how unsuccessful they have been.

I Agree with above. Everyone needs to read this, the reality of the situation.

 

[387star]

Appalling stare of affairs

 

[387star]

Did C2C Gatwick Express and London Overground go DOO without government backing ?

 

[Dave1987]

As was said by a certain Roger Ford in one of his columns recently, the national rail network has never been so nationalised as it is currently with the Government micro-managing franchises and TOC's but under the guise of private companies operating them. They have the best of both worlds. They can dictate exactly what they wan to happen, but turn around and say it is private company matter when they want to. I don't believe any of the TOCs involved in any of the current disputes can talk and negotiate with staff and the unions in good faith because they are hamstrung by the Government. I honesty believe we would have good resolutions to all these disputes if it wasn't for the fact the Government has an agenda against the unions. It is very striking how certain newspapers have tried to make out that rail staff are extremely over paid. Now in an economy where wage growth on the whole is extremely poor, lambasting an industry for having decent wages can only been seen as part of the problem as to why the country is in the state it is in. Funnily enough the papers that are lambasting railway staff wages are Tory supporting papers. There seems to be a trend emerging here!

 

[Dave1987]

Another tweet from the RDG about “creating 100,000 jobs in rail by 2027”. Seems the RMT are having some effect with actions on trying to highlight staffing cuts on rail. If the Government wanted to cut staff numbers to make franchises more profitable they are going to have a seriously hard time doing so on the quiet now so as much as RMT PR is pretty shambolic at times it is clearly having an effect.

 

[pemma]

I don't believe any of the TOCs involved in any of the current disputes can talk and negotiate with staff and the unions in good faith because they are hamstrung by the Government.

With Northern it seems driver opening and closing isn't up for discussion without DfT approval but which routes become DCO, whether or not there's a 100% guarantee of a second person of staff on board and what training the second person of staff has is up for discussion.

I honesty believe we would have good resolutions to all these disputes if it wasn't for the fact the Government has an agenda against the unions.

The RMT won't accept driver closing under any circumstances, whatever the route or whatever various reports say on safety. Whatever the government thinks about unions the RMT's stubbornness makes the problem much worse than it needs to be.

It is very striking how certain newspapers have tried to make out that rail staff are extremely over paid. Now in an economy where wage growth on the whole is extremely poor, lambasting an industry for having decent wages can only been seen as part of the problem as to why the country is in the state it is in. Funnily enough the papers that are lambasting railway staff wages are Tory supporting papers. There seems to be a trend emerging here!

Problem with the railways is they provide an essential service which is funded by everyone, including those who don't even use the railways. Consequently, high salaries for railway employees is going to be unpopular, just like high salaries for civil servants are.

 

[pemma]

Another tweet from the RDG about “creating 100,000 jobs in rail by 2027”. Seems the RMT are having some effect with actions on trying to highlight staffing cuts on rail.

The RDG has been going on about all the new jobs, new trains and other investment since before the 2015 General Election.

 

[Dave1987]

With Northern it seems driver opening and closing isn't up for discussion without DfT approval but which routes become DCO, whether or not there's a 100% guarantee of a second person of staff on board and what training the second person of staff has is up for discussion.

The RMT won't accept driver closing under any circumstances, whatever the route or whatever various reports say on safety. Whatever the government thinks about unions the RMT's stubbornness makes the problem much worse than it needs to be.

Problem with the railways is they provide an essential service which is funded by everyone, including those who don't even use the railways. Consequently, high salaries for railway employees is going to be unpopular, just like high salaries for civil servants are.

Whilst I accept the RMT are perceivably extremely stubborn and some might say unreasonable, I don't hold that against them. They are fighting for their members and overall safety and accessiblity on the railways. "Optional" means "Expendable" pure and simple. I think the Government taking ASLEF to court on the whole Gatwick Express thing has had a huge impact over this entire process. Everything needs to be watertight and legally binding. The Government holds the cards in all these negotiations. The Government hate the RMT and all unions and wish they disappeared, and the RMT and all unions hate the current Government. When you want honest open negotiations that's not a great start as there is no trust.

For a country where wage growth is pitiful and almost none existent, to criticise an industry with good wages is just adding to the problem. Wages on the railway are ones you can actually live on. I'm constantly reading about industries that are going to struggle in the future with lack of staff, principally because of the pitiful wages that you cannot afford to live on. The railways should be seen as a model that the rest of the business world should look to emulate. Not create envy.

 

[Dave1987]

The RDG has been going on about all the new jobs, new trains and other investment since before the 2015 General Election.

They have noticeably stepped it up in recent months. I've seen repeated columns from Paul Plumber in rail mags trying to quash the RMT PR that staff numbers are being cut.