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Arriva Rail North DOO

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woodmally

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A second member of staff on board a DOO train dedicated to customer service, passenger assistance and revenue. Basically a guard with the safety critical bits taken out.

I think it stands for On Board Supervisor (edited) or some such.

I thought as much when I googled it. Now I as a passenger would be happy about this, as would Northern, but surely this is what Northern is proposing. if RMT were to agree to OBS then they could have done this a year or two ago and avoided all this unnecessary action. As that was precisely what Northern are proposing when they say keeping the guard but in a new role.
 

Robertj21a

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Possibly, but bear in mind RMT haven’t yet even accepted OBS on Southern, despite it s existence for well over a year .

Surely, the whole idea is to largely ignore the RMT !.

Southern seems to, now, all be progressing rather well with their new staff in OBS roles. I haven't heard any interest from them in even wanting to join any union, certainly not the RMT. If the current arrangements are working well on Southern it wouldn't be a bad idea to replicate them in other suitable TOCs.
 

Bromley boy

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Does anyone know, have many of the former GTR guards (now OBSs of course) retained RMT membership?

It’s difficult to see how they could if the union refuses to recognise the role.

EDIT: this is also relevant to the Northern dispute if they end up with a similar OBS style arrangement.
 

pompeyfan

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A second member of staff on board a DOO train dedicated to customer service, passenger assistance and revenue. Basically a guard with the safety critical bits taken out.

I think it stands for On Board Supervisor (edited) or some such.

If you believe the spin from the RDG and from Northern and Southern, the eventual plan is for OBS’ to have evacuation training, PTS, dispatch in degraded situations and other similar training to the guard

Does anyone know, have many of the former GTR guards (now OBSs of course) retained RMT membership?

It’s difficult to see how they could if the union refuses to recognise the role.

EDIT: this is also relevant to the Northern dispute if they end up with a similar OBS style arrangement.

RMT OBS’ on Southern were/are recognised as ‘conductors in dispute’, not sure if that’s still the case.
 

northwichcat

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RMT OBS’ on Southern were/are recognised as ‘conductors in dispute’, not sure if that’s still the case.

If that is the case surely the RMT can only allow those who were previously employed as conductors to retain existing membership and not allow new OBS' to join the union.
 

pompeyfan

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If that is the case surely the RMT can only allow those who were previously employed as conductors to retain existing membership and not allow new OBS' to join the union.

That is as I understand it, newly recruited OBS’ are not welcome to join the RMT, and other unions are offering protection on a personal level. I’m sure others, such as @tsr can confirm.
 

Bromley boy

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That is as I understand it, newly recruited OBS’ are not welcome to join the RMT, and other unions are offering protection on a personal level. I’m sure others, such as @tsr can confirm.

Surely they should now start to recognise the grade, even if under protest. It seems crazy not to at this point.
 

323235

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Who is actually doing ticket checks and sales on board during the strikes? This morning a polite young woman was trying her best to do so on my service but seemed to be struggling quite a bit! She was just dressed in normal clothing too rather than any sort of Northern uniform.

Is it just Arriva Rail North back office staff?
From what I have seen it appears to be back office staff and conductor managers / trainers.
 

Jonfun

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Id probably support something similar to the Southen or Strathclyde models as the solution to most current and future DOO disputes, unless the RSSBs incident statistics are wrong there’s really little point in forever training the vast majority of onboard staff to a curriculum that’s barely altered since the likes of slam doors, absolute block, red star parcels, manual coupling and zero mobile communications.were the everyday norm on our railways .Rightly or wrongly times and technology have changed.

And yet still a significant number of incidents are detected, prevented, or mitigated against not by technology, but by the attentiveness and diligence of railway staff. You lose that when you start deskilling and just paying people to clip a few tickets on a train.
 

Carlisle

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And yet still a significant number of incidents are detected, prevented, or mitigated against not by technology, but by the attentiveness and diligence of railway staff. You lose that when you start deskilling and just paying people to clip a few tickets on a train.
Yes quite possibly, if the aim was to make all existing guards and station staf redundant on the introduction of DOO and replace them entirely with minuum wage agency temps after only a few hours training ,but I don’t believe that’s what’s planned.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Surely they should now start to recognise the grade, even if under protest. It seems crazy not to at this point.

It does indeed. Maybe if they won't recognise them another union can come in and replace them with a more forward-looking view? (I mean one that doesn't just resist practically all change but instead recognises that change is the nature of the world but fights for members' rights through change, which is what I think unions are *really* for).

Not recognising them is in my view totally and utterly wrong. It's not the individual's fault that there weren't any guard roles for them to take instead.
 

Chris172

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I was in West Yorkshire all day yesterday and every train I boarded the Northern Guard would do all the customer service part and none of them were depressed but they were happy. I spoke to a young lad around early 20s and he felt that he provided more customer service and helped customers more with their queries and that the DOO was a good idea so he can focus more on customer service rather than keep running to the doors to enable boarding and alighting.
 

Bromley boy

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It does indeed. Maybe if they won't recognise them another union can come in and replace them with a more forward-looking view? (I mean one that doesn't just resist practically all change but instead recognises that change is the nature of the world but fights for members' rights through change, which is what I think unions are *really* for).

Not recognising them is in my view totally and utterly wrong. It's not the individual's fault that there weren't any guard roles for them to take instead.

They certainly need to be more pragmatic. In my view they missed a trick by not pushing harder on the customer service aspects of the guard role and the importance of maintaining a second person on board for that reason (which I wholeheartedly agree with). The safety argument is a valid one but, let’s face it, has been largely lost since DOO was introduced in the 1980s.

At this point it would be better to make the best of the current situation rather than continuing to dig their heads into the sand to the detriment of their members (not to mention turning their backs on a lot of potential new OBS members, which will be to the union’s own detriment, in the long run).

They also really, really need to improve their PR.

EDIT: I also agree with your excellent description of what a union should be for, although I’m not sure the change introduced in this case is a necessary or beneficial one rather than a politically motivated one (and one achieved at enormous cost, far in excess of just leaving things as they had been).
 
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CN75

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They certainly need to be more pragmatic. In my view they missed a trick by not pushing harder on the customer service aspects of the guard role and the importance of maintaining a second person on board for that reason (which I wholeheartedly agree with). The safety argument is a valid one but, let’s face it, has been largely lost since DOO was introduced in the 1980s.

Guards have over argued the safety aspects of the job for many years, as it has continued to change. It is quite possible that older guards are scared of accepting that the real job they presently do is almost all customer service based and fractionally safety-related. However this has to be accepted if the guard grade has any future relevance.

The industry tests guards for pass/fail knowledge of potentially obsolete operational rules. In addition, it should be passing or failing guards on their retained competence on tickets, customer service information, engineering works, travel connections etc, and also test how quickly they could check tickets and manage common customer issues. Guards that did not come up to the customer service threshold levels required should have a window of time to change, or leave, making customer service as important as “safety”. Passengers would be more inclined to fight for guards if they were given expert customer service as a standard.
 
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Carlisle

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I generally agree with the above post, but challenging strongly held views by some that customer service based jobs like pubs, hotels. and shops are all about poor conditions whereas niche/specialist traditional railway roles like guard, signalman, tamper operator or train driver are well rewarded and highly sought after probably won’t be something easily achieved overnight.
 
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If you believe the spin from the RDG and from Northern and Southern, the eventual plan is for OBS’ to have evacuation training, PTS, dispatch in degraded situations and other similar training to the guard



RMT OBS’ on Southern were/are recognised as ‘conductors in dispute’, not sure if that’s still the case.

That was the case however I do believe that this is being developed albeit slowly, however they have also faced opposition from the RMT who are happy to comment on the grade and it’s competencies which could in fact make them more important and operational even though they say they don’t recognise or represent the role!
 

YorkshireLad

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2 more strikes planned this month for Thursday 24th and Saturday 26th of May.

Is this the quickest new strikes have been announced after the previous one?
 

woodmally

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2 more strikes planned this month for Thursday 24th and Saturday 26th of May.

Is this the quickest new strikes have been announced after the previous one?
I would say yes. I actually thought only one strike day a month was a bit low even assuming they cannot afford too many. Interesting to see if there is a change of tactic. Or is it because there is another bank holiday coming up.
 
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northwichcat

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I would say yes. I actually thought only one strike day a month was a bit low even assuming they cannot afford too many. Interesting to see if there is a change of tactic. Or is it because there is another bank holiday coming up.

I wonder if Friday 25th is pay day for them?
 

woodmally

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I wonder if Friday 25th is pay day for them?
I could be wrong but it might have something to do with shift patterns. The balance between striking and not losing too much pay. They may be doing it to maximise impact on Northern but minimising impact on wages.
 

Smidster

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I am slightly surprised they didn't go for Monday 21st to maximise the chaos that the timetable change is going to cause.

Least it gives a good reason for another day working at home in a couple of weeks.
 

woodmally

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Cynically timed for CL final when half of Merseyside will be out for it.
Yep read that on another forum I thought it was about shift patterns but clearly a better reason to strike. Search Northern Resist on Facebook. There is an angry group of commuters on there.
 

Starmill

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Yep read that on another forum I thought it was about shift patterns but clearly a better reason to strike. Search Northern Resist on Facebook. There is an angry group of commuters on there.
Actually a significant number of the members of that group appear to be guards who go there to bad-mouth their employer.

Of course their priorities are only incidentally aligned with those of angry commuters and it often shows.
 
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