Arriva Rail North DOO

[Robertj21a]

Indeed - Javelins require a second member of safety critical staff (OBM) onboard for the High Speed sections, but the driver is responsible for dispatch. It isn't DOO in the conventional sense, but it isn't true guarded operation either, which is why it was known as DCO (driver controlled operation) or DOD (driver only dispatch) - they wouldn't run with the Driver only.

They are DO under rule book module SS1, but not anything else

I wonder if anyone has ever attempted to list every possible variety of DOO/DCO/DOD that we've now come across ? - all I see is continual confusion over the same/similar terminology being used, but in marginally different situations.

 

[the sniper]

Do you think the bullet train in Japan has a man or woman running to the end to control the doors.

Oh dear...

Here's 30 minutes worth of video clips that will seemingly surprise you...

The VAST majority of trains in Japan, be it Shinkansen or Metro ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFUzjkZoYuk), are worked by a Driver and Conductor. Many trains, shamefully, get this, have a NON COMMERCIAL Conductor. So you're almost accidentally correct, you won't see most Japanese Conductors running to a door panel, as they won't gone that far from the cab door panel...

Honestly guys, I think we can all agree that the Japanese are getting this all sooooo wrong. Yes, they might have the most famously reliable, respected rail system in the world, but, think of the lessons they could learn from our s***show of a railway and what they could achieve if they had Roy McNulty, Peter Wilkinson and Chris Grayling guiding them forward. Of course, I trust the RailUK DOO Cheerleaders will also lend their services to point out how desperately wrong everything is with the Japanese system of work. They are the true experts in this field, after all.

 

[Camden]

It is interesting, what are the economics like of the Japanese system?

One observation I would make about the above though, especially given that they are filmed by amateurs and are unlikely to be putting on a show, the professionalism of their staff is exemplary. I agree that the UK's politicians would manage to make a hash of anything good anywhere they get to meddle, but I would also argue that the way that railway staff in the UK comport themselves is also not equivalent to what seems to be the norm in Japan. The staff in Japan are clearly dedicated to ensuring their trains depart safely and bang on time. There is relevance there in terms of both actual worth and perceived worth.

 

[James James]

The Japanese system has fare gates at most stations, the UK often doesn't. And I think there's a lot more societal trust in that country.

Somewhat similarly, but a touch different: with no fare gates, Switzerland operates hugely on trust. All the local and regional trains are DOO, with only random inspections every couple of months (same for buses). IR and IC trains do operate with conductors who check tickets, but they're still "understaffed", I can go days without a ticket check on those trains. (On the IR and IC, I believe the train driver still operates the doors, in combination with the conductor using their whistle - each door has a local override for the conductor so they don't get left behind...)

The fine if you don't have a ticket on _any_ of those trains is about 80 CHF (60-70 GBP?). IR and IC trains used to permit buying tickets from the conductor (for a CHF 5 additional fee), that service is now gone (you can buy tickets on your phone in a pinch - conductors get an automatic warning on their device when they scan a ticket that was bought after departure time).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Japanese system has fare gates at most stations, the UK often doesn't. And I think there's a lot more societal trust in that country.

It does, and there's so much trust that if you "jump" the barriers there isn't necessarily anything to stop you! I got stuck inside a Tokyo Metro station once with a ticket that wouldn't work the gates (basically we'd ridden round a loop and couldn't "adjust" the fare to pay for it as it was confused we were back where we started without leaving the system), there was nobody there so I barged the gate, there was an alarm but nobody came to deal with it. It might almost be intended to work by way of shaming the fare dodger.

Somewhat similarly, but a touch different: with no fare gates, Switzerland operates hugely on trust. All the local and regional trains are DOO, with only random inspections every couple of months (same for buses). IR and IC trains do operate with conductors who check tickets, but they're still "understaffed", I can go days without a ticket check on those trains. (On the IR and IC, I believe the train driver still operates the doors, in combination with the conductor using their whistle - each door has a local override for the conductor so they don't get left behind...)

No, the departure procedure is done by the guard. You do however get "guard dispatch, driver close" on some of the narrow gauge lines. On the mainline on classic stock nobody releases, it just happens when you drop below 5km/h, on some newer stock it *may* be driver release. DB by contrast have largely switched from the 5km/h system to driver release.

The (rather dangerous) dispatch procedure goes thus:
- Guard blows whistle
- Guard operates box on platform to give RA to driver (while doors are still open)
- Guard returns to train and closes all doors but his own using key
- Guard closes own door

It is clear to see the flaws in that (in particular nothing to stop a runner trying to board, failing and going under the train with nothing to really stop it, or the guard being left behind), and it does surprisingly often result in trains leaving with doors open. The driver does have a small rear view mirror, but it would be hard to see on a long IC train.

Regional SBB trains are generally "regular" DOO using on train mirrors.

The fine if you don't have a ticket on _any_ of those trains is about 80 CHF (60-70 GBP?). IR and IC trains used to permit buying tickets from the conductor (for a CHF 5 additional fee), that service is now gone (you can buy tickets on your phone in a pinch - conductors get an automatic warning on their device when they scan a ticket that was bought after departure time).

And the latter will land you a hefty PF.

 

[James James]

No, the departure procedure is done by the guard. You do however get "guard dispatch, driver close" on some of the narrow gauge lines. On the mainline on classic stock nobody releases, it just happens when you drop below 5km/h, on some newer stock it *may* be driver release. DB by contrast have largely switched from the 5km/h system to driver release.

Which carriages offer that?. Certainly, the Bpm/EW IV/EC carriages operate with central release, and even the (mostly retired) EW I/II carriages also have central release (although it's possible they didn't before refurbishment, which was a long time ago). I've specifically tested the Bpm (the only carriage that had manually operated doors until recently), and could not open doors until release, that included one occasion where doors weren't released for 20s after coming to a standstill. (It's possible things are different on departure, I certainly know that doors will automatically close above 5km/h - so perhaps they used to allow opening below 5km/h on departure - which would make sense if the conductor forgot to override the door.)

The (rather dangerous) dispatch procedure goes thus:
- Guard blows whistle
- Guard operates box on platform to give RA to driver (while doors are still open)
- Guard returns to train and closes all doors but his own using key
- Guard closes own door

It is clear to see the flaws in that (in particular nothing to stop a runner trying to board, failing and going under the train with nothing to really stop it, or the guard being left behind), and it does surprisingly often result in trains leaving with doors open. The driver does have a small rear view mirror, but it would be hard to see on a long IC train.

Regional SBB trains are generally "regular" DOO using on train mirrors.

FWIW long IC trains will tend to have conductors at at least 2 points on the platform, that will signal that doors are clear. I haven't seen those conductors activating anything train-side to close the doors in recent years - but perhaps an additional conductor is inside the train activating the doors. In any case the procedure you describe doesn't match what I see on a daily basis.

And the latter will land you a hefty PF.

Most of the time it doesn't, because most of the time it's shown when someone buys their ticket immediately after boarding the train at departure time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which carriages offer that?. Certainly, the Bpm/EW IV/EC carriages operate with central release

They absolutely don't.

and even the (mostly retired) EW I/II carriages also have central release (although it's possible they didn't before refurbishment, which was a long time ago). I've specifically tested the Bpm (the only carriage that had manually operated doors until recently), and could not open doors until release, that included one occasion where doors weren't released for 20s after coming to a standstill. (It's possible things are different on departure, I certainly know that doors will automatically close above 5km/h - so perhaps they used to allow opening below 5km/h on departure - which would make sense if the conductor forgot to override the door.)

The latter is the reason for your experience of having to wait.

UIC type coaches have two different door mechanisms (though on newer ones it's done electronically rather than physically). There is 5km/h door blocking, which disconnects the inside handle (only the inside one) above 5km/h, with a very short release delay (<1s) when stopping. If that's engaged a manual handle "clicks" but doesn't engage. Then there is the closure mechanism which operates by way of air pressure. If that's engaged the handle won't operate at all.

The SBB coaches were modified in recent years such that when moving (nobody has to do anything to activate it) they automatically apply closure pressure approximately every 30 seconds; it then takes about 10 seconds to leak away. This ensures that any doors left open by the deficient departure procedure are closed and the train doesn't run with open doors for a significant period. If this occurs just before the train stops, the effect is an apparent delay in door release. This is what you have experienced - I have come across this as well.

The sliding doors on the EW IVs work exactly the same way. It probably won't be as visible on the Bpm powered doors or on ICs because it is probably done electronically on those.

FWIW long IC trains will tend to have conductors at at least 2 points on the platform, that will signal that doors are clear. I haven't seen those conductors activating anything train-side to close the doors in recent years

You haven't looked that hard then

It's a key by the door - have a look for it next time you travel. There are two slots - one showing S, one showing UIC. The two slots exist because the UIC standard is for guards to operate while standing on the platform, while the SBB departure procedure has them do it from on the train, so you will see the UIC one being much lower down.

Most of the time it doesn't, because most of the time it's shown when someone buys their ticket immediately after boarding the train at departure time.

You are specifically not allowed to do that - you MUST buy before boarding. The same rule is applied by Northern, FWIW.

 

[YorkshireLad]

3 strikes this month on the 19th, 21st and 23rd.

 

[footprints]

The RMT sure know how to win the hearts and minds of the travelling public. Another PR masterstroke from Cash and co. The utter contempt they seem to have for the customers who pay their members' wages is quite remarkable.

 

[Lytham Local]

3 strikes this month on the 19th, 21st and 23rd.

Great, that'll mean an improved service on the Blackpool lines.

 

[PR1Berske]

The RMT sure know how to win the hearts and minds of the travelling public. Another PR masterstroke from Cash and co. The utter contempt they seem to have for the customers who pay their members' wages is quite remarkable.

At a time when Northern passengers are suffering enough, a Union should not place yet more displeasure on ordinary people just trying to get to work. There's an issue to be resolved, yes. But a Union showing such ignorance to ordinary passengers isn't going about sodding that issue.

 

[PR1Berske]

3 strikes this month on the 19th, 21st and 23rd.

The statement from RMT:

All Arriva Rail North Conductor, Conductor Instructor and Train Driver members are instructed to take action by not booking on for any shifts between:


• 00.01 hours and 23.59 hours on Tuesday 19th June 2018
• 00.01 hours and 23.59 hours on Thursday 21st June 2018
• 00.01 hours and 23.59 hours on Saturday 23rd June 2018

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“We have seen over the past fortnight that Northern is a company which has declared war on its passengers and staff alike. RMT will not stand aside while the threat to axe safety critical guards from Northern services remains central to the company plans.

“This company has reduced the timetable to total chaos and the union will not allow them to slash the safety culture to ribbons in the same fashion.

"It is a tribute to the determination and professionalism of RMT members on Arriva Rail North that they have remained rock solid for over a year now in what is a clear-cut battle to put public safety before private profit.

"German-owned Northern Rail want to run half a million trains a year without a safety critical guard on board in a move that would wreck both safety and access ‎to services and they should listen to their front-line staff and pull back from that plan immediately.

"RMT has agreed arrangements in Wales and Scotland that enshrine the guard guarantee. If it's good enough for Wales and Scotland to have safe rail services it should be good enough for the rest of Britain.

“The failure to reach a solution to this dispute to date is solely down to the company and the union remains ready for genuine and meaningful talks.”

ENDS

Source :
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-warns-that-northern-planning-to-shred-safety-culture/

 

[footprints]

At a time when Northern passengers are suffering enough, a Union should not place yet more displeasure on ordinary people just trying to get to work. There's an issue to be resolved, yes. But a Union showing such ignorance to ordinary passengers isn't going about sodding that issue.

Earlier today they issued a rant/press release complaining how their members were increasingly finding themselves on the receiving end of abuse from passengers as anger and frustration at the current situation threatens to boil over. A few hours later they announce three more strike dates. Do they think that will help?

 

[Carlisle]

The RMT sure know how to win the hearts and minds of the travelling public. Another PR masterstroke from Cash and co. The utter contempt they seem to have for the customers who pay their members' wages is quite remarkable.

Id say almost no one now truly believes the RMT gives two hoots about passanger safety or service,but some may still prefer the idea of power resting with trade unions over certain politicians

 

[PR1Berske]

Earlier today they issued a rant/press release complaining how their members were increasingly finding themselves on the receiving end of abuse from passengers as anger and frustration at the current situation threatens to boil over. A few hours later they announce three more strike dates. Do they think that will help?

It shows the disjointed mania at the heart of the RMT, in my opinion. Bring attention to abuse by passengers, by all means, it's an important topic. Bring attention to the ongoing arguments over the franchise agreement to introduce DOO. What they *shouldn't* do is try and draw attention to both *at the same time* while passengers are suffering from timetable farago.

 

[Lytham Local]

Earlier today they issued a rant/press release complaining how their members were increasingly finding themselves on the receiving end of abuse from passengers as anger and frustration at the current situation threatens to boil over. A few hours later they announce three more strike dates. Do they think that will help?

The VT staff at Preston get my sympathy as well as although the troubles with NT have nothing to do with them, they get their ears bent by the Northern customers. Likewise the bus drivers on the rail replacement services who have upwards of 60 disgruntled customers sat behind them.

 

[Andyh82]

“declared war”
“German owned”

Two ticks for RMT press release bingo

 

[northwichcat]

“declared war”
“German owned”

Two ticks for RMT press release bingo

Declaring war on the Germans? Surely the UN must take action against the RMT for war crimes.

 

[Robertj21a]

“declared war”
“German owned”

Two ticks for RMT press release bingo

Oh dear, back to their old ways. Just when I thought they were getting better (albeit very slowly).

 

[peri]

I think that's my London trip on the 19th FUBAR (****** up beyond all recognition).
I got tickets for:
Doncaster to Kings Cross 08:14 - 09:58
Kings Cross to Doncaster 20:33 - 22:23 in the VTEC sale for £14.00
I was going to fill in Hull to Doncaster return with a Northern Complimentary Travel Pass.
Has anyone an idea of how the Hull - Doncaster trains run during the strike?
Somehow I don't think the last one at 22:57 will survive.

 

[Overspeed110]

It's a real shame the Northern ASLEF drivers don't refuse to cross the picket line, like they have commendably done on Merseyside.
Whatever happens, it's only a matter of time before ASLEF will get involved in this dispute, the new trains aren't far off........

 

[northwichcat]

It's a real shame the Northern ASLEF drivers don't refuse to cross the picket line, like they have commendably done on Merseyside.
Whatever happens, it's only a matter of time before ASLEF will get involved in this dispute, the new trains aren't far off........

Yet DCO isn't scheduled to happen until December 2019 and with the current franchise's record it won't be delivered until at least a year after that even if the unions do nothing.

 

[Moonshot]

It's a real shame the Northern ASLEF drivers don't refuse to cross the picket line, like they have commendably done on Merseyside.
Whatever happens, it's only a matter of time before ASLEF will get involved in this dispute, the new trains aren't far off........

I seriously doubt they will, other than to ask how much the members will be getting paid to open and close doors

 

[Overspeed110]

I seriously doubt they will, other than to ask how much the members will be getting paid to

I really can't see that happening on Northern, it's a very different kettle of fish up north....
Yes there are the types who would sell their own mothers for another shilling an hour, but you would hope that the majority of drivers vote against it.

 

[Robertj21a]

I really can't see that happening on Northern, it's a very different kettle of fish up north....
Yes there are the types who would sell their own mothers for another shilling an hour, but you would hope that the majority of drivers vote against it.

Unfortunately, experience suggests that money buys a lot........

 

[woodmally]

And so it continues. Another three days folks. https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-warns-that-northern-planning-to-shred-safety-culture/

 

[northwichcat]

RMT Leeds rep just contradicted himself on the pan regional ITV program on Northern. He said they won't consider calling off or postponing next week's strikes as they represent their members not passengers but then went on to say the strikes relate to passenger safety.

 

[Chester1]

I really can't see that happening on Northern, it's a very different kettle of fish up north....
Yes there are the types who would sell their own mothers for another shilling an hour, but you would hope that the majority of drivers vote against it.

If Northern drivers cared a lot they would have joined the dispute ages ago. I am sure they are moderately anti DOO but they have sat on the sidelines for a very long time so far so can't care that much!

 

[northwichcat]

If Northern drivers cared a lot they would have joined the dispute ages ago. I am sure they are moderately anti DOO but they have sat on the sidelines for a very long time so far so can't care that much!

I think ASLEF are being clever, the later talks start the greater the chance of DCO not being implemented on time. If they took the RMT's stance Northern might be ready to start DCO early.

 

[Chester1]

I think ASLEF are being clever, the later talks start the greater the chance of DCO not being implemented on time. If they took the RMT's stance Northern might be ready to start DCO early.

I think they are being clever too but I don't buy that they are millitant etc! The RMT are and therefore couldn't help themselves and striked far too early. They have achieved nothing in the Northern dispute and the talks on MerseyRail seem to be based on reducing station staffing levels instead.