Arriva Rail North DOO

[Darandio]

In some cases teenagers will be 'asking' other passengers for money.

Plenty of adults too......

 

[muz379]

The RMT are significantly responsible for both undermining the morale at Northern and elsewhere as part of their industrial relations strategy against the TOC and have a long record of defending the indefensible on all train companies to protect the brothers when management try to deal with their poor performance. Until recently, merely threatening the word ‘strike’ would have forced the TOC to choose between managing and profitability.

So long as the guards have the culture that their personal performance is their management’s fault, that the RMT is their insurance policy and that they take instructions from the RMT before they do their management, the railway will never improve.

Any conductor being brought off and questioned for their constantly riding in the back cab and not doing even the most basic security check would be questioned in the first instance by local level management and they would be represented by a local rep , another conductor from their depot if you would . Any manager that thinks that a local level rep has the ability to call a ballot for strike action and acts accordingly is clearly not in the right role . What you are saying is basically just fiction . Local level reps dont threaten strike action .If local level reps reach a fail to agree position with the company the matter will then escalate to the company level reps , these also have to fail to agree as a collective and then there will be avoidance of dispute meetings . Only after these will the full time officer give his recommendation one of which could be to hold a ballot .

Furthermore even if it was to come down to a ballot , you would need all the other guards in the same TOC to actually vote for action . I know some would think long and hard about voting to lose pay for a colleague who was not doing their job properly . I know I would .

As I said previous TOC's have used mystery shopping exercises , and people did get questioned as to their train working as a result . Nobody ever went on strike over that .

seeing some of the undesirables you get on public transport, I can sympathise with guards wanting to hide. Would you go and tackle a party of half a dozen youths clearly under the influence?

Personally I would at the very least go down and check out what they are doing at regular intervals . If things turn nasty then you can always retreat to the back cab and call for police assistance . Its very rare for someone to just be assaulted out of the blue , usually it will follow a verbal exchange with threats being given and even then most of the time you can talk people down .

There is a lot of hysteria over drunk people , but the vast majority are perfectly jolly and just want to get on their way home . The one time I have actually felt fearful that I would be assaulted was not actually a drunk person on a late night train home it was a commuter in a suit who couldn't board the train because it was short formed .

Besides this prejudicial subtext about intoxicated youths is for the most part just made up . I have had just as many instances of middle aged men or women on nights out scrapping or being abusive to other passengers .

 

[muz379]

We do it all the time - it's the job. 90% of the time you can have someone get on stinking of drugs or drink and they'll have a ticket or pay up, slightly grudgingly or otherwise.

Prejudge the people and the problem and all you end up doing is scaring yourself - I actually had a colleague have a near breakdown towards the end of their training because they got so worked up about being on a certain route on their own having paid too much attention to mess room horror stories.

Occasionally you'll get some grief and that's part of the job and it's down to your wits and personality to manage that.

99% of being a successful member of customer facing railway staff, whether it's a guard, RPO, OBS, dispatcher etc is knowing how to talk to people and behave.

Never talk down to people, address them in a similar way to how they address you (unless they're obviously angry) and remember that most things can sail freely overly your head. Talk to every single person who shows you a ticket, even if it's just a quick thumbs up, grin and a cheers pal. If you're nice to other people you'll be amazed who will help if you get into difficulty.

Ive just seen this post after I had posted mine . Absolutely 100% on the money .

 

[Robertj21a]

Any conductor being brought off and questioned for their constantly riding in the back cab and not doing even the most basic security check would be questioned in the first instance by local level management and they would be represented by a local rep , another conductor from their depot if you would . Any manager that thinks that a local level rep has the ability to call a ballot for strike action and acts accordingly is clearly not in the right role . What you are saying is basically just fiction . Local level reps dont threaten strike action .If local level reps reach a fail to agree position with the company the matter will then escalate to the company level reps , these also have to fail to agree as a collective and then there will be avoidance of dispute meetings . Only after these will the full time officer give his recommendation one of which could be to hold a ballot .

Furthermore even if it was to come down to a ballot , you would need all the other guards in the same TOC to actually vote for action . I know some would think long and hard about voting to lose pay for a colleague who was not doing their job properly . I know I would .

As I said previous TOC's have used mystery shopping exercises , and people did get questioned as to their train working as a result . Nobody ever went on strike over that .


Personally I would at the very least go down and check out what they are doing at regular intervals . If things turn nasty then you can always retreat to the back cab and call for police assistance . Its very rare for someone to just be assaulted out of the blue , usually it will follow a verbal exchange with threats being given and even then most of the time you can talk people down .

There is a lot of hysteria over drunk people , but the vast majority are perfectly jolly and just want to get on their way home . The one time I have actually felt fearful that I would be assaulted was not actually a drunk person on a late night train home it was a commuter in a suit who couldn't board the train because it was short formed .

Besides this prejudicial subtext about intoxicated youths is for the most part just made up . I have had just as many instances of middle aged men or women on nights out scrapping or being abusive to other passengers .

Nice to see some good common sense observations.

 

[Tomnick]

Can I ask a genuine question please? Sitting here as a train user (think ABC, duffel bag, fishtail parka) I can imagine drivers need considerably more detailed route knowledge than guards. Is this so, is it possible for guards to need less comprehensive route knowledge, know more routes, make keeping route knowledge easier and cheaper and so on?

If I understand you correctly - that’s already the case. Guards’ route learning is generally much quicker than drivers’ for the reason that you state. Guards at our place pretty much universally sign all routes covered by the depot, whereas most drivers don’t, many not even signing all the routes covered in their own link. That’s why I don’t really buy the ‘benefit’ of increased flexibility!

 

[Robertj21a]

The deadline laid down by the RMT (12 o'clock on Friday) has now passed.

No news from any party ?

 

[pemma]

The deadline laid down by the RMT (12 o'clock on Friday) has now passed.

No news from any party ?

Northern have said they have agreed to meet for talks but whatever the RMT decides it's now too late to reinstate the original Saturday timetable.

 

[jwos]

On Railnews website:

“Northern managing director David Brown said: ’We’re disappointed that RMT has made this offer too late in the week to restore a normal timetable in time for Saturday.’”



RMT’s latest press release:

“30th November 2018

NEWS RELEASE

Immediate



RMT Northern Rail action goes ahead this weekend as company fails to give key guarantees on second person on the company’s trains



RAIL UNION RMT today confirmed that strike action on Northern Rail goes ahead tomorrow exactly as planned after the company failed to respond by noon to a request for urgent talks around the core principles of the role and responsibilities of the second person on the train.


The union had set out three core objectives to be met which would have facilitated talks and allowed for tomorrow’s action to be suspended:



1. An absolute guarantee that no trains will run without the second member of staff on board.


2. That the second member of staff will be clearly designated as safety critical to the running of all services.


3. That the second member of staff will retain the full suite of safety and operational competencies of the guard, including a direct role at the platform/train interface and train despatch.


Arriva Rail North have failed to make any response to the union call.


RMT general secretary Mick Cash said,


“RMT made it clear that we needed a formal response from Northern Rail by noon today to the core principles around the role and responsibilities of the second person on their trains. We are angry and frustrated that no such response has been forthcoming and as a result of the company’s failure the action goes ahead tomorrow exactly as planned.


"It has only been the resilience of RMT members and our supporters from the ‎travelling public whose solidarity and determination have been instrumental in getting the focus of the dispute back on to the guarantee of a second person on the train. It is deeply disappointing that the company have failed today to meet the union’s call to move the issues forwards.”


ENDS”

 

[Intermodal]

We can only see what will happen next week. I am not confident that much will change, to be honest, but I hope the opposite.

 

[Robertj21a]

We can only see what will happen next week. I am not confident that much will change, to be honest, but I hope the opposite.

Well, the RMT blanket demand remains as 'a safety critical guard on every train' - so it's difficult to see how it will ever move forward.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The guard hardly needs to ask them for money...

Inspecting tickets and patrolling the train aren't corequisitie.

Some Merseyrail guards patrol the train without doing tickets. (While they did for a bit, I don't think Merseyrail guards now do revenue at all - though I have a feeling that may change if my suspicions for how they are to be funded on the new stock are realised).

 

[yorksrob]

Northern have said they have agreed to meet for talks but whatever the RMT decides it's now too late to reinstate the original Saturday timetable.

If it happens in time for next Saturday, it will still be a major step forward.

 

[HowardGWR]

On Railnews website:

“Northern managing director David Brown said: ’We’re disappointed that RMT has made this offer too late in the week to restore a normal timetable in time for Saturday.’”



RMT’s latest press release:

“30th November 2018

NEWS RELEASE

Immediate



RMT Northern Rail action goes ahead this weekend as company fails to give key guarantees on second person on the company’s trains



RAIL UNION RMT today confirmed that strike action on Northern Rail goes ahead tomorrow exactly as planned after the company failed to respond by noon to a request for urgent talks around the core principles of the role and responsibilities of the second person on the train.


The union had set out three core objectives to be met which would have facilitated talks and allowed for tomorrow’s action to be suspended:



1. An absolute guarantee that no trains will run without the second member of staff on board.


2. That the second member of staff will be clearly designated as safety critical to the running of all services.


3. That the second member of staff will retain the full suite of safety and operational competencies of the guard, including a direct role at the platform/train interface and train despatch.


Arriva Rail North have failed to make any response to the union call.


RMT general secretary Mick Cash said,


“RMT made it clear that we needed a formal response from Northern Rail by noon today to the core principles around the role and responsibilities of the second person on their trains. We are angry and frustrated that no such response has been forthcoming and as a result of the company’s failure the action goes ahead tomorrow exactly as planned.


"It has only been the resilience of RMT members and our supporters from the ‎travelling public whose solidarity and determination have been instrumental in getting the focus of the dispute back on to the guarantee of a second person on the train. It is deeply disappointing that the company have failed today to meet the union’s call to move the issues forwards.”


ENDS”

If Northern were to agree to that stated in the PR, the three pre-conditions, there would be no point to holding any meeting, since there would be nothing to talk about. In other words they would have agreed to the status quo.

 

[Robertj21a]

If Northern were to agree to that stated in the PR, the three pre-conditions, there would be no point to holding any meeting, since there would be nothing to talk about. In other words they would have agreed to the status quo.

Quite. There seems little point in having a meeting if nothing has really changed. A bit of smoke and mirrors isn't really enough.

 

[a_c_skinner]

So all sides have restated their positions. Perhaps time to lock the thread again?

 

[Intermodal]

So all sides have restated their positions. Perhaps time to lock the thread again?

Nope. The RMT and Arriva Rail North have just agreed to talks next week.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Blimey. That was so soon after my gloomy observation I may take credit for solving the whole thing!

 

[Intermodal]

Blimey. That was so soon after my gloomy observation I may take credit for solving the whole thing!

I knew you could do it, mate.

 

[Robertj21a]

Nope. The RMT and Arriva Rail North have just agreed to talks next week.

It might have been preferable if Mick Cash could have avoided the unnecessary - '......I was disappointed that you failed to respond in the desired manner by 12 noon......'. Blinking heck, he's only a union leader, not God almighty (others may have different views).

 

[Sken]

Hi, my first post here, can anyone confirm if services are running between Leeds and Guiseley next Saturday (8th), cannot get a reply off Northern, thanks!

 

[Intermodal]

Hi, my first post here, can anyone confirm if services are running between Leeds and Guiseley next Saturday (8th), cannot get a reply off Northern, thanks!

It is not possible to confirm, as the timetable is not out.

 

[Sken]

Is it reasonable to presume that it will at least be fairly similar to this Saturdays?

 

[a_c_skinner]

he's only a union leader, not God almighty

It was a common feature of a lot of stuff trades unions put out in the past, perhaps not calculated to inflame but certain not to promote harmonious relations. I've said before this dispute is IR from a bygone age, both sides have done it.

Edit: The classic one was, of course "cannot negotiate with a gun to our head", we've not had that yet, they are all neglecting their history lessons.

 

[Confused52]

Hi, my first post here, can anyone confirm if services are running between Leeds and Guiseley next Saturday (8th), cannot get a reply off Northern, thanks!

The Northern website says "Northern has announced details of the services it will operate for the RMT strike action on Saturday, 1 December and the following four Saturdays." . It did intend that the following Saturday's strike service would be the same as this week. This is confirmed on the same page ( see:https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike) by the statement
“This Saturday, we are introducing a new timetable for RMT strike days that will deliver stable and consistent train services for our customers on each strike Saturday in December".

However as you can see on this thread there could be changes as a result of negotiations which may have unpredictable consequences so I am afraid the situation is still not stable and probably will not be public knowledge until the evening before. Apologies that no-one knows the right answer.

 

[Sken]

The Northern website says "Northern has announced details of the services it will operate for the RMT strike action on Saturday, 1 December and the following four Saturdays." . It did intend that the following Saturday's strike service would be the same as this week. This is confirmed on the same page ( see:https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike) by the statement
“This Saturday, we are introducing a new timetable for RMT strike days that will deliver stable and consistent train services for our customers on each strike Saturday in December".

However as you can see on this thread there could be changes as a result of negotiations which may have unpredictable consequences so I am afraid the situation is still not stable and probably will not be public knowledge until the evening before. Apologies that no-one knows the right answer.

Thanks for your response!

 

[yorksrob]

If Northern were to agree to that stated in the PR, the three pre-conditions, there would be no point to holding any meeting, since there would be nothing to talk about. In other words they would have agreed to the status quo.

Not necessarily.

Driver open/Guard close would mark a change in responsibilities, but would meet the RMT's three criteria.

 

[Carlisle]

Not necessarily.

Driver open/Guard close would mark a change in responsibilities, but would meet the RMT's three criteria.

The RMT offered that method of working before they even balloted for action, so a deal of that nature would constitute 100% failure by northern to achieve literally anything from this dispute, so the status quo in all but name

 

[yorksrob]

It was a common feature of a lot of stuff trades unions put out in the past, perhaps not calculated to inflame but certain not to promote harmonious relations. I've said before this dispute is IR from a bygone age, both sides have done it.

Edit: The classic one was, of course "cannot negotiate with a gun to our head", we've not had that yet, they are all neglecting their history lessons.

That might be the case in terms of industrial relations, but in operational terms, it is a significant change. Many times I've been stood waiting while a guard battles his way down the train to open the door.

I'm not particularly interested in point scoring as the whole dispute seems to have a whiff of self-defeating futility about it.

 

[pemma]

According to North West Tonight it's been agreed that they'll be a second person on all services but it's still to be decided what exact role the second person will have.

 

[Jonfun]

The thing I'm not getting is TFTN say they don't agree with trains running without a second person; we can realistically assume that to have any hope of passing an OBS role through Northern would have to pay them the same wage as a guard, and pay the drivers a significant premium on top of their current wage for the additional responsibilities; its fair to say that a Guard who never goes through his train is probably just going to become an OBS who never goes through his train; and we're saving the grand total of about 10 seconds on station dwell times, when the timetable's written in minimum blocks of half-minutes anyway.

Is this whole dispute not, overall, going to end up costing us more than we're going to save?