The RMT keep changing what they want, can you blame Northern for not knowing what's going to be discussed from one day to the next?
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Arriva Rail North DOO
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Bantamzen
Established Member
< Dreamy Sigh >
If only we could have devolved government. Its the dream for sure but can you really see this government ever giving any amount of local control? Their handling of the current dispute, which could probably be resolved by Grayling & Co simply allowing the franchise agreement to be modified to remove the requirements for driver operation as it stands, is evidence itself that they don't give two stuffs about what goes on 'Oop North (or for most other parts of the country for that matter).
I'm not a union basher. I'm a lowly Band 2 admin assistant earning next to nothing whose weekend travel plans have been shot to pieces. Not because of engineering works, not because of civil unrest, not because of leaves on the line, not because of points failure outside Lostock; it's entirely the result of RMT strikes which could have been resolved by the RMT.
The long term consequences to leisure travel I dread to imagine. For a union to enjoy inconveniencing hard working families and commuters every weekend is unforgivable.
Indeed. The only way we will ever get change would be if local political parties were to become powerful enough to challenge the powerbases of the Westminster parties.
Robertj21a
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I think you will find that some on here still refuse to accept that Arriva has agreed to having a 2nd person on board every train - the statement above is supposed to reassure them. However, some on here seem to assume that this 2nd person is going to be some zero-hours contract bod dragged in from an agency. I really can't see that, it sounds far more like the OBS on Southern to me (who are well-paid, full time, permanent staff).
Of course, the RMT still refuse to recognise the role of 'OBS', so it could just be that they are again worried about future membership numbers - as the meetings never get to those discussions I guess we'll never know. In any event, the RMT demands are for the 2nd staff member to be safety-critical, including closing the doors.
What changed? A bunch of idiots masquerading as managers changed everything. Even those of us who hoped for something to develop are now very angry with this lot. It was all a cynical ploy to try and get the strikes called off for Christmas. Trouble is, you can only play a game plan once and win, and they played it last summer.
This whole franchise is a total mess. From blocking passengers on twitter to running half a fleet around on half power, the mess just keeps on rolling. When is anyone going to say they are not fit for purpose, can we have the keys back please. Strikes aside, everyone is sick and tired of this group of incompetents making running a railway ever more difficult.
Robertj21a
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I never did get the optimism which seemed to arise, just from the RMT apparently accepting that door opening wasn't an essential requirement - after all, it's hardly a big issue given the amount of DOO elsewhere. Why on earth there was then such a flurry of 'the strike is over, Arriva has capitulated' type of postings on here is quite beyond my comprehension.
I agree that an escalation is quite likely, but probably not from the direction you're expecting.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, I expect them to accept that and it is not "laughable". It is how it is done in every other industry and, like the guards, with so many 15x etc around any driver not wishing to drive DOO (with or without OBS) will be able to drive guarded trains on their existing contract for the foreseeable future.
I can understand why existing staff do not wish to change/lose their role. I find it totally unacceptable that it is even legal for Unions to seek to coerce a business into changing their future policy with regard to staff who aren't even employed yet. That already has checks and balances in itself because if nobody wants to do the job nobody will apply for it.
Along the same lines, as long as no existing guards are made redundant and those who do not wish to be OBS are not forced to become OBS (which again is viable due to the 15x knocking around), I see no issue with recruiting new OBS off the street or from other railway roles.
OK so I have sat back and watched this thread go back and forth with some accusing the RMT of moving the goalposts and some accusing ARN of the same. The simple fact of this whole dispute is that no one has change their fundamental stance. The company took on the franchise knowing that it would have to introduce DOO/DCO (whatever it is called this week). This would mean that a train would be completely controlled in the dispatch/door/pti procedure by the driver alone. It would also mean that a service could operate without a second person on board. The company state that they have a commitment to have a second person on board. Here in lies the rub.
Nowhere does it state that
A. The second person will be garanteed on every service.
B. The second person will be fully trained to the same high safety standards as current guards today ie "SAFETY CRITICAL"
C. The second person will be fully involved in the pti/dispatch procedure.
This is what the RMT and it's members want as do the majority of customers who use the services. It's not about money or conditions. It's about keeping that second safety critical person on the train. Simple.
Nowhere does it state that
A. The second person will be garanteed on every service.
B. The second person will be fully trained to the same high safety standards as current guards today ie "SAFETY CRITICAL"
C. The second person will be fully involved in the pti/dispatch procedure.
This is what the RMT and it's members want as do the majority of customers who use the services. It's not about money or conditions. It's about keeping that second safety critical person on the train. Simple.
Robertj21a
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I agree with most of that, it's never really changed from the outset. We all know that those 3 things are what the RMT want, they've repeated it enough times.
The problem is that the employer doesn't want/can't agree to those requirements.
Where is your evidence that 'the majority of customers' want the same as the RMT ?.
Which is effectively what ASLEF did at GTR
CaptainHaddock
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Whatever the rights and wrongs, the RMT's beef is with Northern, not with the passengers who just want to use the train on Saturdays to go shopping or to sporting events. Clearly the 13 consecutive Saturday strikes have had no effect whatsoever in resolving the dispute so if the RMT really cares about passengers, it should call off the strikes and find a more effective way of forcing Northern to resolve the dispute.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The majority of customers who use the services do not give a monkey's who presses the button on the doors. A load of them probably already think the driver does it anyway.
This line really discredits the view of anyone who says it, as it is preposterous in the extreme. Those customers who do want a second person (who may well be in the majority) are almost certain to want that person to spend all their time in the passenger cabin assisting and protecting them - which means not faffing with doors. A Southern style OBS is almost certainly wholly acceptable to them.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If they actually want to force Northern's hand rather than negotiate, i.e. no concessions, I expect "all out until there is an agreement" is the only way that will be achieved.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Just to clarify, the public do want A & B, but C is not necessarily as high up the priority list of passengers.
Safety is vital, but then so is having a railway service that people can at least reasonably rely on. With the deteriorating Saturday services, this can no longer be relied upon and people will start to use alternative means, or even not travel at all. This is bad for them, for business & ultimately for the railways.
Most passengers do understand the issues here, but patience is running thin. All three sides need to remove their ultimatums & be prepared to compromise & not set pre-requisites just to meet in the same room. Otherwise this strike will rumble on, Arriva will walk away from the franchise & whilst some would celebrate this, it would just hand the problem wholly back to the government & they will cut & slash as they see fit. A swift resolution is the only way to resolve this, otherwise jobs right across the board, within the industry and without will disappear faster than you can say ACAS....
You are living in dreamland now. What they going to do when they don't have a single unit capable of running DCO? What they going to do when ASLEF have agreed nothing and the majority of the drivers I speak to won't entertain it anyway?
The only escalation is the strikes are now set to roll on throughout 2019, Every Saturday,
This shower even have the capability of turning people like myself who had pretty flexible ideas a few month ago.
If they have agreed to a second person on every train then surely at least one of the requirements has been met. That 'second person' comes with a heavy caveat. One of which is being consistently forgotten.
Who is really making this railway unreliable. Train crew don't run short formed services. Train crew don't allow units to trot around on half power because they can't be bothered to do basic maintenance. Train crew didn't introduce penalty fares to punish their passengers. Train crew didn't cancel every Dalesrail service throughout a whole summer. Never in all my considerable years on the railway have I seen such a mess as this lot are making. But blame the train crew.
Robertj21a
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I never referred to any 'single unit capable of running DCO', so it's difficult to see where you got that from. My assumption would be, as I've mentioned previously, that Arriva have another look at the Terms and Conditions of employment, now that the dispute has continued for so long.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Please go back and read my previous comments on the matter. I am not blaming train crews. I am blaming the DfT for setting the franchise conditions, Arriva for not standing up to the government, and the RMT leadership for playing politics.
But regardless, a continuation of this dispute throughout Christmas & into the new year will escalate, as another poster suggested, in ways not yet expected. Fewer people will use the services, revenue will fall, jobs will be lost. And not just on the railways, if business start to fail because of drastically reduced business through people simply not being able to travel, then prepare to have the government weaponize that against you. That's the bottom line here, and why at some point everyone involved, including the train crews are going to have to ask when does the dispute do them more damage than good.
I'd say right now, speaking as a former TU rep who has been involved in many disputes, the situation is not far off the edge of the cliff from which there will be no coming back. Once you lose public support, and you can take my word on this, you will arm the government against you. The RMT as your last line of defence needs to box clever here, not just keep swinging missing punches.
underbank
Established Member
Ever increasing numbers of people are giving up on Northern. Not just the Saturday strikes - that's the nail in the coffin. It's the ancient trains - recently, there've been regular cancellations on the Furness line (almost every day it seems) due to some kind of train failure or staff shortage. Sunday services are now a complete joke (maybe not all Northern's fault, but there isn't an "early" Sunday service from Cumbria/North Lancs to Preston early enough to catch the first Pendo of the day to Euston - it was never "early" as it was 9.30 from Carnforth but at least it got you to Preston for the 11.00 to Euston - not any more, or at least not for the next few weeks) - that's not the strikes I presume, maybe engineering works? Certainly from the people I know in North Lancs/South Cumbria, railway travel is barely even considered now, even from regular train users like myself - not used a train since early July when previously I used them regularly both for commuting and pleasure. That's not to mention the timetabling fiasco. It's going to take a long time for the service to recover, if ever. It's a complete fiasco - Northern Rail, the unions, Network Rail etc are all to blame and should be ashamed of the damage they've caused.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
One upside of this - I guess once things are running again the overcrowding will be a thing of the past. Might the Government actually consider this a benefit of allowing things to continue?
CaptainHaddock
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But by meekly doing what the RMT tells them to, train crew (or conductors at least) are effectively treating the public with contempt and the more this goes on, what little public sympathy remains for them is rapidly diminishing.
That’s unlikely, northern knew of failure to get strikes suspended 2 months ago and the reasons behind it, they’ll realise an organisation as hardline as the RMT is extremely unlikely to have undergone a total transformation in that time,
It now just became an idealistic battle to save the traditional guards grade at almost any cost between the union and Govt /DFT
The fact that I work with said customers day in day out is evidence in itself
There was a bus strike around here yesterday. One woman who used the bus regularly was so impressed that we got her to her destination in half the time, swore she was going to use the train from now on. Especially when she realised it was cheaper.
So my late evening train was a little more busier, and my takings were up. I didn't have the heart to tell any of those buying tickets off me that in 'Northern world' everyone of them could have copped for a penalty fare. Who is really driving people off the trains?
footprints
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Apart from the passengers which the RMT's action is denying a train service, the businesses the RMT's action is sending to the wall, and the workers who risk losing their jobs, the strikes are achieving absolutely nothing. It's truly bizarre how the RMT seem to wear the "38 days" like a badge of honour when really it's nothing other than an abject failure for all parties involved.
The idea that calling even more strike days, or striking more often, would be a "mind blowing escalation" is laughable. All it will mean is you inconvenience passengers even more than you're doing already, do even more damage to the regional economy, lose even more money, while still continuing to achieve absolutely nothing.
At what point does the penny drop that the RMT are a busted flush who have massively overplayed their hand and are striking their way into irrelevance?
I doubt Northern really wanted the meeting yesterday. How could they not show though? After last weeks bluster they had to show or it would have looked like it was them not trying.
I was confused on Friday by their internal memo. Hindsight now highlights it was all a sham.
Let's be honest about it. This is going to rumble on until the 'fat lady' sings, and I don't even think Northern knows who the 'fat lady' is.
Robertj21a
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I really can't see how you can come up with any statistically accurate figure from just 'working with customers' - do you explain all of the detailed issues, the pros and cons, the PTI, the alternatives that work well across the country etc etc ?
Bantamzen
Established Member
But they did show didn't they? That's certainly what was said upthread.
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