Arriva to close Aylesbury and High Wycombe depots

[WAB]

Depends where you're looking. In Europe and London with its steady income, structured return on investment and lack of risk, probably. The rest of UK Bus has some powerhouses (that also aren't what they were) in Murkeyside, Leicester and West Yorkshire (and are at risk from franchising). Of the other operations, ones that were "decent" are now increasingly marginal and vulnerable - Mark My Words, I reckon you'll see others go. I can think of four or five more that I think were marginal a few years ago and won't survive past 2025 (though I hope I'm wrong).

Within UK Bus, which are the strongest depots (outside of the areas slated for franchising in the medium term)? Derby seems alright to me, are there any others?

 

[riceuten]

The first sign of I-Squared flexing its muscle? To be fair, Aylesbury with a PVR (peak vehicle requirement) of just 17 buses was never long for this world, but I'm slightly surprised about High Wycombe, especially given the recent tinkering with the services, and the efforts in publicising them; they've hardly given the changes long enough to settle in.
What price Hemel Hempstead now? It's rather remote, only Luton nearby; nothing is safe, it seems.
We live in interesting times.

I think this puts to bed the idea that iSquared are going to "invest in Arriva" and not asset strip, oh no. Wonder how much the depots are worth....

Interesting debate on FB about this

https://www.facebook.com%2FWycombeSound%2Fposts%2Fpfbid0GsfrmQrt2MNbakKV1qkxWvrXye2VVueMR38939sHaZ8JN4nJ5WLPkLoEA8Dks3B1l

 

[Mikey C]

Kent already feels near death, Not even trying for new Fastrack contracts. Also lost a few routes in SE London so could see them completely leaving NW Kent and Dartford area.

Lost to Go-Ahead too, who are going to build a new depot for the electric Fastrack routes.

Go-Ahead and Arriva do seem to be going in opposite directions.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think this puts to bed the idea that iSquared are going to "invest in Arriva" and not asset strip, oh no. Wonder how much the depots are worth....

Interesting debate on FB about this

https://www.facebook.com%2FWycombeSound%2Fposts%2Fpfbid0GsfrmQrt2MNbakKV1qkxWvrXye2VVueMR38939sHaZ8JN4nJ5WLPkLoEA8Dks3B1l

I'll say it again... Has the deal actually gone through?

There is still a link to the Arriva website from the DB corporate one, and there is nothing on the iSquared website re: Arriva purchase since the proposed deal was announced in October. It said it would complete in 2024 subject to various internal and legislative clearances but not heard anything since.

This has all the hallmarks of an Arriva operation that has frankly dwindled over recent years to a few core routes. Allied to a lack of investment from DB over several years, the post Covid drop in passengers and such a malaise also emboldening others to compete, they simply aren't able to make the operation pay. Seen the same happen in so many places.

Within UK Bus, which are the strongest depots (outside of the areas slated for franchising in the medium term)? Derby seems alright to me, are there any others?

The good areas were places like Derby, Leicester, Luton, and the Medway Towns.

It would be interesting to see the fleet sizes of the various opcos when they became Arriva and what they look like 25 years later. One I was able to find was that the M&D bus club stated that Arriva had c.250 buses running out of 4 Kent depots in 2012. It's now about 180 from 3.

 

[jackgwycombe]

It's a strange feeling seeing Arriva close down, we all saw it coming but some how its still a shock. Thankfully, now Wycombe's bus services are going to be in much better hands, imagine how much worse their service might have ended up a year down the line!!

Seeing how Carousel have grown passenger numbers on their Chiltern Hundreds services and are investing in route one makes me hopeful. Its funny how I remember a few years ago, thinking that Carousel's services are empty in comparison to Arriva's, and now its completely switched, I often can't get a seat with Carousel now! I hope they will manage to bring the bus service frequencies back where they were a few years ago

 

[lincman]

I pointed out some time ago that High Wycombe was a basket case. If I remember correctly there has been problem after problem at the depot. It has surprised me it has lasted this long. Around 2010 it was on its knees. Aylesbury is a strange one it was a strong performer but with some of the trunk routes moving to Hemel that was the end of it.

Can only agree, the move to Cressex put a massive cost onto the depot, and very poor staff relations did not help. It would appear that with the number of times that the operations have been sold on, that High Wycombe would be something of a poison chalice.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Can only agree, the move to Cressex put a massive cost onto the depot, and very poor staff relations did not help. It would appear that with the number of times that the operations have been sold on, that High Wycombe would be something of apoison chalice.

I don't know about that. London Country closed their depot in the 1970s arguably to cut costs as they could run the stuff mainly from Amersham. Sold that Amersham site for redevelopment and Wycombe was a logical place for the replacement.

In the meantime, the former Alder Valley/Berks Bucks HW operation was part of Q Drive who simply broke up the various depots and sold them separately. High Wycombe was eventually sold to Oxford Bus but a small town like Wycombe really couldn't justify two depots so Go Ahead flogged Wycombe to an eager Arriva.

It's fair to say the HW was always the poor relation even in British Bus Shires days, running Atlanteans into the late 90s but the decline has been accelerated in recent years. If Go Ahead can sort the service reliability out and manage the transition, they could have a decent (but not a stellar) operation.

 

[stadler]

Talking of the "Red Group" (I always call them "Red *") they aren't one company, just a set of slightly inter-related family businesses. More loosely related/competing with them (depending on mood) you've also got Z&S (Zaman and Son, if anyone was wondering).

There are six of them. Red Eagle, Red Line, Red Rose, Star Travel, Vale Travel, Z & S Transport, are all based in Aylesbury and all seem to have some sort of relation to each other. Red Eagle and Red Line and Red Rose seem to be particularly closely related. These three companies use the same ticket rolls that have all three logos and i have seen signs saying "were part of the Red Group" copying the Go Ahead branding on all three operators. They also share the same depot and regularly swap vehicles and some drivers will drive for all three. Red Eagle and Red Line and Red Rose seem to have a very close relation. Star Travel and Vale Travel and Z & S Transport are also related but i think more distantly. From what i understand i think with all of these companies it is just a case of different members of the same family running each company or something like that so they do sometimes work together. There also used to be a seventh Aylesbury company called Red Kite but they seem to have dissappeared a few years ago.

 

[Simon75]

The first sign of I-Squared flexing its muscle? To be fair, Aylesbury with a PVR (peak vehicle requirement) of just 17 buses was never long for this world, but I'm slightly surprised about High Wycombe, especially given the recent tinkering with the services, and the efforts in publicising them; they've hardly given the changes long enough to settle in.
What price Hemel Hempstead now? It's rather remote, only Luton nearby; nothing is safe, it seems.
We live in interesting times.

Milton Keynes is close too

 

[Robertj21a]

.....and, yet again, does anyone have any hard evidence of I squared taking over Arriva?
I don't recall seeing anything other than a plan.
Thes latest closures just sound like traditional Arriva.

 

[Mikey C]

Seems odd timing, just months after the renumbering of the Aylesbury routes to create an Aylesbury "network".

 

[WAB]

It would be interesting to see the fleet sizes of the various opcos when they became Arriva and what they look like 25 years later. One I was able to find was that the M&D bus club stated that Arriva had c.250 buses running out of 4 Kent depots in 2012. It's now about 180 from 3.

Derby had c.115 in 1986 at privatisation and is now down to 75 despite being one of the stronger ops.

 

[Mgameing123]

Deleted Message

It's a strange feeling seeing Arriva close down, we all saw it coming but some how its still a shock. Thankfully, now Wycombe's bus services are going to be in much better hands, imagine how much worse their service might have ended up a year down the line!!

Seeing how Carousel have grown passenger numbers on their Chiltern Hundreds services and are investing in route one makes me hopeful. It’s funny how I remember a few years ago, thinking that Carousel's services are empty in comparison to Arriva's, and now it’s completely switched, I often can't get a seat with Carousel now! I hope they will manage to bring the bus service frequencies back where they were a few years ago

Carousel only invested because the competition was there. If the competition wasn’t there they would never have invested

 

[Mollman]

Deleted Message


Carousel only invested because the competition was there. If the competition wasn’t there they would never have invested

Have you any evidence of that or just your anti-Carousel bias?

 

[TitanMike]

.....and, yet again, does anyone have any hard evidence of I squared taking over Arriva?
I don't recall seeing anything other than a plan.
Thes latest closures just sound like traditional Arriva.

As an Arriva employee, the deal with Isquared is nearing completion so I am told. At this stage, Arriva is still owned by DB.

 

[Mgameing123]

Have you any evidence of that or just your anti-Carousel bias?

It's just the general rule of competition. Once a monopoly is established they can do whatever they want and nobody can do anything about it except if Buckinghamshire franchised buses.

A good example is Stagecoach Cambridgeshire where they have a monopoly in Cambridge and they got unreliable and expensive. When a competitor comes onto the stage though then they will do anything to make sure the new operator goes bankrupt so people are stuck with them.
I'm just pro competition when it comes to UK buses.

 

[Bedford OB]

There are six of them. Red Eagle, Red Line, Red Rose, Star Travel, Vale Travel, Z & S Transport, are all based in Aylesbury and all seem to have some sort of relation to each other. Red Eagle and Red Line and Red Rose seem to be particularly closely related. These three companies use the same ticket rolls that have all three logos and i have seen signs saying "were part of the Red Group" copying the Go Ahead branding on all three operators. They also share the same depot and regularly swap vehicles and some drivers will drive for all three. Red Eagle and Red Line and Red Rose seem to have a very close relation. Star Travel and Vale Travel and Z & S Transport are also related but i think more distantly. From what i understand i think with all of these companies it is just a case of different members of the same family running each company or something like that so they do sometimes work together. There also used to be a seventh Aylesbury company called Red Kite but they seem to have dissappeared a few years ago.

Red Kite was not an Aylesbury company and unconnected with the other businesses. It was owned by Hoar and Savage and based in Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's just the general rule of competition. Once a monopoly is established they can do whatever they want and nobody can do anything about it except if Buckinghamshire franchised buses.

A good example is Stagecoach Cambridgeshire where they have a monopoly in Cambridge and they got unreliable and expensive. When a competitor comes onto the stage though then they will do anything to make sure the new operator goes bankrupt so people are stuck with them.
I'm just pro competition when it comes to UK buses.

It's not a general rule of competition. Were that to be the case, then Arriva would've been investing heavily to keep Red Rose out?

Carousel aren't the greatest Go Ahead subsidiary, let alone greatest bus company. However, I'd hope that after the decline that has been evident in Arriva's local operations, at least Go Ahead will look to get the operations back on an even keel and something approaching reliability

 

[stadler]

Red Kite was not an Aylesbury company and unconnected with the other businesses. It was owned by Hoar and Savage and based in Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire.

Ah many thanks for the clarification. Most of the routes that Red Kite had ran to or from Aylesbury or around the Aylesbury area so i always presumed that they were related top. I guess it was just coincidence that they had a similar name and ran in the same area.

 

[baza585]

And Carousel are worse than Arriva how?? Not in my experience, and others might agree with me.
I hear that Southampton is actually going quite well .... can anyone local confirm or deny??

GSC did a very good job when Yellow Buses went under despite having minimal notice.

Blue star has always been a weaker operation than more or Southern Vectis in my experience. They have too many cross city routes which suffer from congestion leading to bunching and they have a marked reluctance to regulate the service to get it back on track, compared to First who were generally more proactive.

The ex London DOEs are not the most reliable of buses and I have personally experienced a number of breakdowns on these and the ex GNE Volvos to a lesser extent. There are also boards missing some days on the 17/18/19 which are the main cross city routes. The DOEs also have that unique aroma of weed from Sarf London which permeates clothing which doesn't help my view of them.

GSC has done OK in Southampton but not great. If Carousel inherit the worst of the DOEs then I doubt things will go well.

Bus Operator of the Year? Maybe overall they would be a contender but not based on the Blue star experience!

 

[Mgameing123]

It's not a general rule of competition. Were that to be the case, then Arriva would've been investing heavily to keep Red Rose out?

Carousel aren't the greatest Go Ahead subsidiary, let alone greatest bus company. However, I'd hope that after the decline that has been evident in Arriva's local operations, at least Go Ahead will look to get the operations back on an even keel and something approaching reliability

Arriva neglected the shires way too much.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Arriva neglected the shires way too much.

I struggle to find any part of Arriva that isn't neglected. It's very much, and basically always has been, the worst of the "big four" (them, Stagecoach, First and Go Ahead).

Merseyside has never been good either, nor Lancashire.

 

[Striker Joe]

So far, with all the changes described by Carousel, this leaves villages of Haddenham, Naphill and Lacey Green without a bus service after Arriva depart?
Will Redline divert the X20 around Haddenham, therefore affecting the 'fast' X20? Will Redline divert some route 130 buses via Naphill to replace the X9 buses, therefore affecting the 'fast' 130 which took so many passengers off the X9?
When will we know an answer?

 

[cactustwirly]

I struggle to find any part of Arriva that isn't neglected. It's very much, and basically always has been, the worst of the "big four" (them, Stagecoach, First and Go Ahead).

Merseyside has never been good either, nor Lancashire.

I disagree, depends on the area.

Look at Arriva in Leicester with brand new buses, and high spec refurbishments. The buses are better than Stagecoach.
First Leicester have transformed the operation with almost everything being operated by a brand new electric buses. There are parts of First that are not as good, like Stoke or South Yorkshire etc.

With regard to High Wycombe, the buses I've seen have been high spec Mercedes and they look reasonably full too. I wouldn't say it's a bad operation.
There are plenty of worse Stagecoach buses out there.

Reading Buses seem to chuck out tatty 12 year old deckers on my route which is just as bad.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

GSC did a very good job when Yellow Buses went under despite having minimal notice.

Blue star has always been a weaker operation than more or Southern Vectis in my experience. They have too many cross city routes which suffer from congestion leading to bunching and they have a marked reluctance to regulate the service to get it back on track, compared to First who were generally more proactive.

The ex London DOEs are not the most reliable of buses and I have personally experienced a number of breakdowns on these and the ex GNE Volvos to a lesser extent. There are also boards missing some days on the 17/18/19 which are the main cross city routes. The DOEs also have that unique aroma of weed from Sarf London which permeates clothing which doesn't help my view of them.

GSC has done OK in Southampton but not great. If Carousel inherit the worst of the DOEs then I doubt things will go well.

Bus Operator of the Year? Maybe overall they would be a contender but not based on the Blue star experience!

In any major operation, there are depots that are better than others, and that's exacerbated by different brands etc in Go South Coast. I'd definitely agree that More and Southern Vectis are better than BlueStar. I travelled on one of the DOEs last year on the Isle of Wight and yes, it was tired but it wasn't the worst vehicle I've ever been on though appreciate it is one isolated experience.

Carousel has an older fleet profile, slightly inconsistent approach to branding etc - but the standard is better than most Arriva operations.

As with Bournemouth and Southampton, it will doubtless be the case that whilst planned cascades will arrive into Wycombe, some older vehicles may have to plough on a bit longer and be supplemented by other fleet from elsewhere.

 

[A0wen]

Aylesbury is a strange one it was a strong performer but with some of the trunk routes moving to Hemel that was the end of it.

If by 'trunk' routes you mean the route down the A41 to Berkhamsted and Hemel, I'd refer you to my earlier post where I explained that Aylesbury only took on some of that after Luton & District took over London Country NW. Prior to that, those services had been the preserve of London Country.

Wonder how much the depots are worth....

Probably not a lot. They are both out of town, industrial area located sites, not very big, so probably not worth a huge amount and may even be leased rather than owned outright.

Aylesbury's 'old' bus garage on Buckingham Road, which dated back to Eastern National ownership in the 1950s was vacated by Luton and District in 1991.

High Wycombe was always a newer site - London Country closed their High Wycombe garage in 1977 moving all their operation to Amersham. Amersham garage closed around 1990 and the site was sold.

 

[Mgameing123]

So far, with all the changes described by Carousel, this leaves villages of Haddenham, Naphill and Lacey Green without a bus service after Arriva depart?
Will Redline divert the X20 around Haddenham, therefore affecting the 'fast' X20? Will Redline divert some route 130 buses via Naphill to replace the X9 buses, therefore affecting the 'fast' 130 which took so many passengers off the X9?
When will we know an answer?

If I were them I would run a bus every 10 minutes in the core. A bus every 20 minutes takes the fast route and a bus every 20 minutes takes the slower route.

 

[Andy Pacer]

If I were them I would run a bus every 10 minutes in the core. A bus every 20 minutes takes the fast route and a bus every 20 minutes takes the slower route.

Would there be demand for such a frequency in a single operator scenario?

 

[Mgameing123]

Would there be demand for such a frequency in a single operator scenario?

I mean if the current setup with 8 buses an hour works then surely 6 buses an hour will work. Because if they only provide 4 buses an hour they might have the of risk of Carousel doing the service.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I mean if the current setup with 8 buses an hour works then surely 6 buses an hour will work. Because if they only provide 4 buses an hour they might have the of risk of Carousel doing the service.

The current set up is 7 buses per hour and that reduces from next week to 6, and there's clearly not enough to sustain two operators.

If I'm honest, I don't see much of an uplift coming from Red Rose. Carousel will probably have enough on their hands with taking on all the other Arriva work, at least in the short term.