Arriva to close Aylesbury and High Wycombe depots

[Wolvercoter]

Looks to me like Carousel/Oxford Bus have laid their intention early to warn off other operators who might want a slice of the action!

Remember the Wycombe Bus Company days back along? The vehicles were a right motley collection of weirdness... allocations could see a decker, National, Lynx or Merc minibus on most routes. Only new vehicles that I recall were 7 SLF Darts for the 303/313. Everything else was mostly cast offs from Oxford or London! Great for the enthusiast, not so great for the travelling public or image! I certainly hope that Carousel doesn't let standards slip... it would be a shame if Wycombe was once again a Cinderella of Oxford Bus Group.

 

[chr]

And Carousel are worse than Arriva how?? Not in my experience, and others might agree with me.
I hear that Southampton is actually going quite well .... can anyone local confirm or deny??

I find it much easier now there's only one company with one app (showing all the buses live location around the city), one tap-on-tap-off ticket. There is plenty of danger for the situation to be abused in the future, which is why I would prefer municipal ownership in the case of a monopoly, but for now it seems to be working. They're also beginning to replace the temporary buses with new buses.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I disagree, depends on the area.

Look at Arriva in Leicester with brand new buses, and high spec refurbishments. The buses are better than Stagecoach.
First Leicester have transformed the operation with almost everything being operated by a brand new electric buses. There are parts of First that are not as good, like Stoke or South Yorkshire etc.

With regard to High Wycombe, the buses I've seen have been high spec Mercedes and they look reasonably full too. I wouldn't say it's a bad operation.
There are plenty of worse Stagecoach buses out there.

Reading Buses seem to chuck out tatty 12 year old deckers on my route which is just as bad.

Those high spec Mercs are really showing their age. One of the reasons why you might see good loads is that there are missing boards most days. Just a quick glance on bus times (usually caveats included) shows gaps in vehicles tracking. They may be running but @RELL6L has often noted that there are simply boards not running.

Leicester and Derby are sadly exceptions to the rule; Arriva Cymru is a reasonable one. Even within OpCos, you will have better depots; Arriva's Tunbridge Wells operations are better turned out than Maidstone, for example. Like @RELL6L, I tend to explore when I get the chance. Based on my experience travelling on a number of OpCos in the last 3 years (i.e. the post Covid world), the rot that set in several years ago has simply reached a tipping point (fuelled by Covid).

 

[Snex]

Those high spec Mercs are really showing their age. One of the reasons why you might see good loads is that there are missing boards most days. Just a quick glance on bus times (usually caveats included) shows gaps in vehicles tracking. They may be running but @RELL6L has often noted that there are simply boards not running.

Leicester and Derby are sadly exceptions to the rule; Arriva Cymru is a reasonable one. Even within OpCos, you will have better depots; Arriva's Tunbridge Wells operations are better turned out than Maidstone, for example. Like @RELL6L, I tend to explore when I get the chance. Based on my experience travelling on a number of OpCos in the last 3 years (i.e. the post Covid world), the rot that set in several years ago has simply reached a tipping point (fuelled by Covid).

To be fair, Covid probably done them a massive favour, in a way, as it gave them a chance to get a rid of a lot of buses which were life expired. If Covid didn't come along, I wouldn't even know what the answer would've been. It's as clear as day, the investment wouldn't have come either way.

The North East and Yorkshire are a complete mess, there's not enough buses in North East, in a usable state, to actually run the full service even if they wanted to. I know there's electrics due in the future, but they're years away from what I've heard.

Sadly they're not the only operator as GoNorthEast is turning into a dumping ground of anything no-one else wants.

 

[mangad]

I'll say it again... Has the deal actually gone through?

From Companies House:
Arriva Limited is controlled by Ail Beta Holding Ltd
Ail Beta Holding Ltd is controlled by Deutsche Bahn Ag.
Ail Beta Holding Ltd was, until a couple of days ago, called Arriva Investments Limited.

You can follow the trail of control all the way from Arriva North West (say), up to Ail Beta Holding.

Assuming the plan is to sell one of the holding companies, this suggests the deal has not completed and iSquared is NOT in control.

​

 

[Deerfold]

From Companies House:
Arriva Limited is controlled by Ail Beta Holding Ltd
Ail Beta Holding Ltd is controlled by Deutsche Bahn Ag.
Ail Beta Holding Ltd was, until a couple of days ago, called Arriva Investments Limited.

You can follow the trail of control all the way from Arriva North West (say), up to Ail Beta Holding.

Assuming the plan is to sell one of the holding companies, this suggests the deal has not completed and iSquared is NOT in control.

​

No. A deal has been agreed. It's been cleared by the EU competition regulator, but so far as I know is still waiting for approval from the UK regulator. Once it's got that, assuming no problems it'll probably be a matter of days after that that it's all finalised, so long as iSquared don't think deciding to close bits of the business materially change its value.

It's just the general rule of competition. Once a monopoly is established they can do whatever they want and nobody can do anything about it except if Buckinghamshire franchised buses.

A good example is Stagecoach Cambridgeshire where they have a monopoly in Cambridge and they got unreliable and expensive. When a competitor comes onto the stage though then they will do anything to make sure the new operator goes bankrupt so people are stuck with them.
I'm just pro competition when it comes to UK buses.

My local operator in Yorkshire has no competition except on the outer parts of a couple of its longer routes. It runs higher spec buses than most operators in the area with reasonable fares (based on day and period tickets at the moment, with the cap in place on single fares).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

From Companies House:
Arriva Limited is controlled by Ail Beta Holding Ltd
Ail Beta Holding Ltd is controlled by Deutsche Bahn Ag.
Ail Beta Holding Ltd was, until a couple of days ago, called Arriva Investments Limited.

You can follow the trail of control all the way from Arriva North West (say), up to Ail Beta Holding.

Assuming the plan is to sell one of the holding companies, this suggests the deal has not completed and iSquared is NOT in control.

​

No. A deal has been agreed. It's been cleared by the EU competition regulator, but so far as I know is still waiting for approval from the UK regulator. Once it's got that, assuming no problems it'll probably be a matter of days after that that it's all finalised, so long as iSquared don't think deciding to close bits of the business materially change its value.

It seems reasonably apparent that the deal has been agreed, it has not been concluded and the comments about iSquared doing this or that are not valid. It looks like that the measures are being put in place so that when the final approvals are obtained, the deal will conclude pretty quickly.

 

[ScotGG]

Lost to Go-Ahead too, who are going to build a new depot for the electric Fastrack routes.

Go-Ahead and Arriva do seem to be going in opposite directions.

Go-Ahead could knock Arriva completely out of Dartford and challenge them into Gravesend and Medway

 

[GusB]

Before the thread drifts too far, can we please keep the discussion focussed around the closure of the depots mentioned In the opening post? Speculation about what will happen to Arriva in other parts of the country should be discussed elsewhere. There are other relevant threads which you can find by using either the forum's search option, or your favourite search engine.

Thanks

 

[Mgameing123]

Looks to me like Carousel/Oxford Bus have laid their intention early to warn off other operators who might want a slice of the action!

Remember the Wycombe Bus Company days back along? The vehicles were a right motley collection of weirdness... allocations could see a decker, National, Lynx or Merc minibus on most routes. Only new vehicles that I recall were 7 SLF Darts for the 303/313. Everything else was mostly cast offs from Oxford or London! Great for the enthusiast, not so great for the travelling public or image! I certainly hope that Carousel doesn't let standards slip... it would be a shame if Wycombe was once again a Cinderella of Oxford Bus Group.

Yeah that’s what sadly happened. The big four are good at claiming territory and ruining bus services within the territory.

I’d honestly wished that Thames Valley Buses ran the route 7. It would have been interesting.

 

[PeterC]

So far, with all the changes described by Carousel, this leaves villages of Haddenham, Naphill and Lacey Green without a bus service after Arriva depart?
Will Redline divert the X20 around Haddenham, therefore affecting the 'fast' X20? Will Redline divert some route 130 buses via Naphill to replace the X9 buses, therefore affecting the 'fast' 130 which took so many passengers off the X9?
When will we know an answer?

Haddenham has an alternative service to Thame provided by Red Rose.

 

[Parebunks]

Carousel are holding a driver recruitment day, presumably almost entirely for displaced Arriva drivers. Details at https://www.carouselbuses.co.uk/bus-driver-recruitment-day-2nd-June-2024 Notable is that they're offering a £4000 joining bonus - if I recall correctly this was only £3000 in Bournemouth and Southampton, perhaps suggests they are somewhat concerned about Arriva drivers seeking employment elsewhere?

Mod note - external sources must be accompanied by a relevant quote.

We are hosting a special Bus Driver Recruitment Day in High Wycombe on Sunday, 2nd June, following recent news about Arriva depot closures in High Wycombe and Aylesbury. We understand this is a challenging time, and we'd love to hear from impacted drivers seeking a new, secure position.

The event is open to anyone wishing to join our team.

Why Choose Carousel Buses?
Immediate Employment & Security: We offer a stable work environment with the chance to start right away.
Excellent Pay Rates: Competitive wages ensure you're well-compensated for your hard work.
£4,000 Joining Bonus: Existing PCV license holders receive an additional bonus! (T&Cs apply)
Friendly & Welcoming Culture: We value our team and create a positive work environment.
Do you have the following?
A valid manual driving license (held for over 12 months)
Excellent customer service skills
Strong communication abilities
Join us on Sunday, 2nd June! Booking is recommended for the event but not necessary.

You’ll be able to:

Meet the management
Ask questions
Fast-track your application
Event details

Date: Sunday, June 2nd, 2024
Time: 10:00 AM - 4:00 PM
Location: Redgrave Room, Holiday Inn M40, Jct. 4, Handy Cross Roundabout, High Wycombe HP11 1TL
Booking is recommended but walk-ins are allowed.

 

[Simon75]

Local media have been reporting that First have their eye on some of the Wycombe routes too - doesn't seem like fertile ground for onroad competition, I assume someone will have to back down before July.

Not sure why they would as High Wycombe is about 20 miles from Slough

 

[markymark2000]

Not sure why they would as High Wycombe is about 20 miles from Slough

They already run into High Wycombe and so could interwork another service into the X74. They did that in Crewe as they had the 3 established then put on the 6 to Leighton Hospital and interworked it.

(Not saying First are looking at routes, just adding an example of where this has been seen before)

 

[sonic2009]

Let's hope any drivers affected by the closure of the depots suitably find work with any new operators - and that some don't face the same issue that 22 ex employees had when Winsford & Macclesfield depots shut down.

 

[Mollman]

They already run into High Wycombe and so could interwork another service into the X74. They did that in Crewe as they had the 3 established then put on the 6 to Leighton Hospital and interworked it.

(Not saying First are looking at routes, just adding an example of where this has been seen before)

I'm not sure that's the best example as it didn't last very long. Also Carousel are likely to retaliate with their own X74 if that happens

 

[Parebunks]

Not sure why they would as High Wycombe is about 20 miles from Slough

The 7 from Maidenhead to Wycombe seemed like it could potentially have been take up by them, but as I said up the thread - seems to have vanished as an idea fairly quickly.

 

[Simon75]

Wonder if they made a attempt to sell the depots, rather than wind down operations (similar to Guilford, Oswestry, Winsford and Macclesfield )

 

[lincman]

Wonder if they made a attempt to sell the depots, rather than wind down operations (similar to Guilford, Oswestry, Winsford and Macclesfield )

I am sure they will have been touted around, but in the current climate there would appear to be little appetite to take on high cost low performing depots. This all looks to be clearing the decks to finalise the the takeover.

 

[GusB]

Carousel is to host a recruitment event and is offering a £4k bonus for drivers.

Carousel holds recruitment event for Arriva staff - Bus & Coach Buyer

Following the news earlier this week that Arriva is considering closing two depots in Buckinghamshire, Carousel Buses is holding a special recruitment event for drivers, mechanics and supervisory positions. The Go-Ahead-owned operator is offering a joining bonus of £4,000 for drivers, paid in...

www.busandcoachbuyer.com

Following the news earlier this week that Arriva is considering closing two depots in Buckinghamshire, Carousel Buses is holding a special recruitment event for drivers, mechanics and supervisory positions. The Go-Ahead-owned operator is offering a joining bonus of £4,000 for drivers, paid in instalments over a one-year period.

Arriva has begun consultation on the proposed closure of its depots at High Wycombe and Aylesbury. Carousel Buses has already announced it will step in to run additional services. It plans to immediately provide a service on current Arriva routes 2, 3, 5/5a, 6/6a, 7/7a, 10, 11, 12, 13, 800, 850 and X80, from the date of the closure.

The recruitment day is a part of Carousel’s response to the closure and is intended to fill additional vacancies which have been created by the major expansion in Carousel’s business. The drop-in event will allow affected Arriva staff, and anyone else interested in new opportunities, to learn more about the company, the roles available and to ask existing staff questions. Application forms will be available to fill in on the day and suitable candidates can undergo an interview and medical on the day.

 

[padbus]

By way of a bit of wild speculation, as Go Ahead seems to be in the business of buying up independent operators perhaps it might buy the Red fleets in Aylesbury and bring some stability to the area. There would be some sort of precedent to this as City of Oxford once ran 8 routes in to Aylesbury (albeit some were VERY infrequent) and outstationed 1 double decker and 2 saloons at the United Counties garage in the town.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

By way of a bit of wild speculation, as Go Ahead seems to be in the business of buying up independent operators perhaps it might buy the Red fleets in Aylesbury and bring some stability to the area. There would be some sort of precedent to this as City of Oxford once ran 8 routes in to Aylesbury (albeit some were VERY infrequent) and outstationed 1 double decker and 2 saloons at the United Counties garage in the town.

There has to be a willing buyer and seller. Whether the Red owners (having succeeded in ousting Arriva) would want to sell is debatable. The argument is always "at the right price" but suspect what they might want may exceed the value that Go Ahead might put on it.

With Pulhams and Dartline, the owners were looking to get out.

 

[lincman]

I struggle to find any part of Arriva that isn't neglected. It's very much, and basically always has been, the worst of the "big four" (them, Stagecoach, First and Go Ahead).

Merseyside has never been good either, nor Lancashire.

Sorry to disagree, I use Arriva Mersyside on a regular basis and find the service, vehicles and staff excellent. By way of comparison I use services in Greater Manchester both before since and franchising and found them very poor by comparison.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sorry to disagree, I use Arriva Mersyside on a regular basis and find the service, vehicles and staff excellent. By way of comparison I use services in Greater Manchester both before since and franchising and found them very poor by comparison.

I'd say that Merseyside has been one of the better ones I've experienced.

Getting back to the Arriva in the home counties, it's been 2.5 years since I had a day out to sample them. I thought that Luton was ok but Hemel wasn't great. Still eons ahead of Stevenage and Harlow which were frankly awful.

Looks like I'll have to get across to see my friends in the area and experience the delights of Arriva in Wycombe before they disappear.

 

[Jamiescott1]

The 7 from Maidenhead to Wycombe seemed like it could potentially have been take up by them, but as I said up the thread - seems to have vanished as an idea fairly quickly.

First tried a route from Wycombe to Waidenhead via the A404 about 5 years ago. It didn't last very long.

 

[padbus]

There has to be a willing buyer and seller. Whether the Red owners (having succeeded in ousting Arriva) would want to sell is debatable. The argument is always "at the right price" but suspect what they might want may exceed the value that Go Ahead might put on it.

With Pulhams and Dartline, the owners were looking to get out.

True. It was a very tongue in cheek comment and is probably best left there before we annoy Admin.

 

[GusB]

True. It was a very tongue in cheek comment and is probably best left there before we annoy Admin.

To be fair, in situations like this where one operator decides to vacate an area, anything can happen. There seems to be a bit of a shopping spree for smaller operators and if the price is right, who knows?

 

[Parebunks]

https://www.carouselbuses.co.uk/new-carousel-buses-services-28th-july-2024 Carousel have announced their plans in detail. By and large reversing the recent Arriva changes, details as follows:

You can see the main details below and download the new timetables. To see where each bus goes, please click here to download a detailed map of our town routes in the High Wycombe area, valid from Sunday 28th July 2024. The new Carousel network map is available here.

Current Arriva Service	Current Route	New Carousel Service	Details
2	High Wycombe - Booker	32 32A	We will be joining Arriva's routes 2 and 12 together to restore the cross town links between Micklefield, the London Road and Booker as Carousel service 32. As a result, times will be revised throughout, with new early morning journeys on weekdays and an increase in the Saturday frequency from up to every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes. On Sundays, there will be an improved service with earlier and later buses. Late evening and Sunday buses will continue to operate via St Hugh's Avenue and Roebuck Avenue and at the times, will operate as service 32A.
3	High Wycombe - Desborough Castle	33	We will be joining Arriva's routes 3 and 13 together to restore the cross town links between Totteridge and Desborough Castle as Carousel service 33. As a result, times will be revised throughout, with a more regular service in the morning peak on weekdays, and more buses in the late evening. The Monday to Saturday service will now operate up to every 15 minutes from both Totteridge and Desborough Castle (currently up to every 20 minutes from Totteridge). On Sundays, we will operate earlier and later journeys.
5A	High Wycombe - Flackwell Heath - Wooburn Green - Bourne End	36S	We will operate our service 36S to the same times as Arriva's 5A (from their 19th May timetable), with no change to the routeing.
6	High Wycombe - Flackwell Heath - Bourne End	36	We will operate our service 36 to the same times as Arriva's 6 (from their 19th May timetable), with no change to the routeing.
6A	Penn - High Wycombe - Flackwell Heath - Bourne End	31S	We will operate our service 31S to the same times as Arriva's 6A (from their 19th May timetable), with no change to the routeing.
7	High Wycombe - Wooburn Green - Bourne End - Maidenhead	37	We will operate our service 37 to the same times as Arriva's 7 (from their 19th May timetable), with no change to the routeing.
7A	High Wycombe - Wooburn Green - Bourne End	35S	We will operate our service 35S to the same times as Arriva's 7A (from their 19th May timetable), with no change to the routeing.
10	High Wycombe - Downley	30	Will be operating a similar level of service to Arriva's 11 service on Mondays to Saturdays, but the times will be revised throughout the day. On Sundays, we will initially commence operating an hourly service.
11	High Wycombe - Penn	31	Will be operating a similar level of service to Arriva's 11 service, but the times will be revised throughout the day.
12	High Wycombe - Micklefield	32 32A	We will be joining Arriva's routes 2 and 12 together to restore the cross town links between Micklefield, the London Road and Booker as Carousel service 32. As a result, times will be revised throughout, with new early morning journeys on weekdays and an increase in the Saturday frequency from up to every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes. On Sundays, there will be an improved service with earlier and later buses. Late evening and Sunday buses will continue to operate via St Hugh's Avenue and Roebuck Avenue and at the times, will operate as service 32A.
13	High Wycombe - Totteridge	33	We will be joining Arriva's routes 3 and 13 together to restore the cross town links between Totteridge and Desborough Castle as Carousel service 33. As a result, times will be revised throughout, with a more regular service in the morning peak on weekdays, and more buses in the late evening. The Monday to Saturday service will now operate up to every 15 minutes from both Totteridge and Desborough Castle (currently up to every 20 minutes from Totteridge). On Sundays, we will operate earlier and later journeys.
800	High Wycombe - Marlow - Henley - Lower Shiplake - Reading	800 (no change)	We will operate to the same times as Arriva, with no change to the routeing.
850	High Wycombe - Marlow - Henley - Twyford - Reading	850 (no change)	We will operate to the same times as Arriva, with no change to the routeing.
X80	High Wycombe - Marlow - Henley	X80 (no change)	We will operate to the same times as Arriva, with no change to the routeing.

From the same date, Carousel service 4 will be renumbered 34, with no change to the route or timetable.

 

[joieman]

https://www.carouselbuses.co.uk/new-carousel-buses-services-28th-july-2024 Carousel have announced their plans in detail. By and large reversing the recent Arriva changes, details as follows:

Seems quite bold given that the closure of the depots hasn't quite been decided upon yet

 

[Voyager 2953]

That’s because it has, this was well known of beforehand. This consultation process is just a formality that needs to be followed.