Arriva to close Aylesbury and High Wycombe depots

[RELL6L]

I've mainly been following this from holiday in Spain and the mists seems to be clearing slightly now.

In Wycombe Carousel is taking over everything operated from Wycombe depot and returning largely to the structure existing before the Arriva changes last summer. We will have to 30 to Downley and 31 to Penn which look like they will interwork (as the Arriva 10 and 11 do now).

The 32 will replace the Arriva 2 and 12 but at the same frequency of every 20 minutes. Looks like they will run as now, as the Arriva 2/12 continue to interwork, but it will enable through journeys which are not possible at the moment. It also looks like they intend to work the 32 with 5 vehicles as against 6 now on the 2/12. I suspect resilience and the effect of delays will be worse as there is less flexibility to adjust and less layover time.

The 33 will replace the Arriva 3 and 13 and link to provide a through service as previously. The frequency to Totteridge will be increased from every 20 minutes to every 15 minutes. At present Arriva run 2 buses on each service (3 and 13), there will be 4 on the combined 33 with a frequency increase - again there will be less resilience.

It looks like the Bourne End services 36 & 37 will be as Arriva 6 & 7 at present with 2 buses an hour, a reduction from before the co-ordination on this corridor, which is a shame. The 800/850 look virtually unchanged. Since the latest timetable change both of these groups of services are more self contained. Little change here.

Aylesbury is more interesting. I agree that the base option for the 130 is for two journeys each hour to be diverted through Naphill to cover the Arriva X9. I took a 130 only a couple of weeks ago between Princes Risborough and Aylesbury and even that arrived early, I do think Arriva running time is very padded now. It takes about 10 minutes longer via Naphill so it would add at least one bus, assuming one bus goes via Naphill southbound and the next one goes via Naphill northbound, but departure times from Wycombe will then appear rather odd. I also suspect this would be insufficient at peak times, Redline only run every 20 minutes roughly at the moment with smaller vehicles and the loadings for both services are not bad plus some decent school traffic, I can see a further increase being justified / needed if Redline can resource it. Arriva's timetables again had more resilience built in, how will Redline manage when there are unusual traffic delays?

On the Oxford corridor, if the X20 is diverted via Haddenham that takes us to a half hourly service throughout which is what there used to be historically. That does not go via Wheatley but it looks like Oxford's 280 will cover this as far as Thame. I doubt if there is much demand from Wheatley to east of Thame. The 120 is only one journey a day so that doesn't come into it. Is anyone going to add any more here? I doubt it.

What will Arriva do with the buses released? I am sure most of these will be welcomed within the south east to help with the vehicle position. A lot of vehicles are getting to the end of their lives over the next few years and anything to reduce the pressure will be useful. The 12-plate Citaros are more interesting as they have some years left in them but are not so common within the group - there are just two at Tunbridge Wells and others at Tamworth where most of them started life. They do seem about the most reliable of the Wycombe fleet, but that's not saying much.

It seems bizarre that they have resuscitated 3580, an 09-plate E300 at Wycombe, totally non-standard - I saw this yesterday (tracking as 3013) but not sure where it is today. This can go back to Hertfordshire somewhere. Also 2982 has been off the road for 3 months, returned for one day then came out again this morning but seems to have been back in the depot by 7am. Meanwhile 4212 was still sitting in the yard when I last looked a couple of weeks ago.

I can't say where Go Ahead will get the buses it needs but it does seem to have some from its previous rescue operations on the south coast. These may be little more reliable than the Arriva ones they replace! Staff - to be seen but I guess many Arriva ones will move over. Depot capacity - I don't know either. I don't think the Carousel timetables will have the resilience needed for High Wycombe's unpredictable traffic, especially the 32 and 33, I hope they have spare buses and drivers on standby at the bus station in busy times.

I know you should be careful what you wish for but I see this as positive. Arriva have had the smell of death for so long. I think the Wycombe network recast last summer could and should have worked but they failed to provide the vehicle resources to enable it to do so and passengers have deserted it. But of course I don't have access to the financials - maybe it was just too much of a basket case. It would have been good to see what had happened if it had worked reliably.

 

[A0wen]

I know you should be careful what you wish for but I see this as positive. Arriva have had the smell of death for so long. I think the Wycombe network recast last summer could and should have worked but they failed to provide the vehicle resources to enable it to do so and passengers have deserted it. But of course I don't have access to the financials - maybe it was just too much of a basket case. It would have been good to see what had happened if it had worked reliably.

I think the reality is Wycombe is a basket case of an operation - and has been for many years. London Country struggled with it, Alder Valley / Berks Bucks struggled with it, Oxford (as Wycombe bus) tried and left.

Arriva may not be the best operator out there, but it is, perhaps, telling that other major groups, such as Stagecoach haven't been queuing up to enter the area. It's reminscent of othe ex London Country areas such as Stevenage where there is no active desire by the other large groups to enter the market because they don't think it's commercially viable.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think the reality is Wycombe is a basket case of an operation - and has been for many years. London Country struggled with it, Alder Valley / Berks Bucks struggled with it, Oxford (as Wycombe bus) tried and left.

Arriva may not be the best operator out there, but it is, perhaps, telling that other major groups, such as Stagecoach haven't been queuing up to enter the area. It's reminscent of othe ex London Country areas such as Stevenage where there is no active desire by the other large groups to enter the market because they don't think it's commercially viable.

Not certain that I agree with you on that.

London Country was born with massive structural issues having inherited operations with onerous terms and conditions of employment. It had been underinvested with an old fleet of half cab deckers, unreliable first gen single decks, and elderly RFs. Did London Country struggle with Wycombe in particular, or did they simply decide to close down a relatively small depot with operations that could be largely served from Amersham?

Alder Valley had challenges too. A marriage of convenience, blending two firms with very different cultures. It had a disparate fleet mix (leading to pronounced vehicle shortages) and, in common with London Country and many NBC firms in Southern England, a massive issue in the recruitment and retention of staff. However, following dereg and the late 80s/early 90s, many of the restrictive terms and conditions have been negotiated away. So not so certain that those historic issues are as relevant.

Perhaps a more appropriate comparison, and more telling, is that other Alder Valley/London Country frontier town - Guildford.

Q Drive bought Berks Bucks and then Alder Valley South (AVS). The month after Q Drive sold Wycombe, they sold the Guildford ops to Drawlane as part of the London & Country ops. It was all part of a break up strategy to both realise property value and obtain more cash from the sale of the parts. Stagecoach subsequently bought the remainder of AVS but were on the periphery running in from elsewhere. Guildford subsequently formed part of Arriva with a steady decline as they sold out in Crawley (Go Ahead were happy to purchase that former LC operation) and finally exited Guildford where a resurgent Stagecoach had forced them out, bit by bit. Stevenage and Harlow are challenging areas to serve (being new towns) but there's no big 4 competition on the doorstep either.

In terms of Wycombe, Go Ahead were happy to purchase Carousel years ago, and they'll have seen how the Arriva operation was more recently. Their operations are on the doorstep and they are best placed to move in. I don't think it's especially bad bus territory - it's just been badly served by the ongoing malaise that is Arriva.

 

[A0wen]

Not certain that I agree with you on that.

London Country was born with massive structural issues having inherited operations with onerous terms and conditions of employment. It had been underinvested with an old fleet of half cab deckers, unreliable first gen single decks, and elderly RFs. Did London Country struggle with Wycombe in particular, or did they simply decide to close down a relatively small depot with operations that could be largely served from Amersham?

Alder Valley had challenges too. A marriage of convenience, blending two firms with very different cultures. It had a disparate fleet mix (leading to pronounced vehicle shortages) and, in common with London Country and many NBC firms in Southern England, a massive issue in the recruitment and retention of staff. However, following dereg and the late 80s/early 90s, many of the restrictive terms and conditions have been negotiated away. So not so certain that those historic issues are as relevant.

Perhaps a more appropriate comparison, and more telling, is that other Alder Valley/London Country frontier town - Guildford.

Q Drive bought Berks Bucks and then Alder Valley South (AVS). The month after Q Drive sold Wycombe, they sold the Guildford ops to Drawlane as part of the London & Country ops. It was all part of a break up strategy to both realise property value and obtain more cash from the sale of the parts. Stagecoach subsequently bought the remainder of AVS but were on the periphery running in from elsewhere. Guildford subsequently formed part of Arriva with a steady decline as they sold out in Crawley (Go Ahead were happy to purchase that former LC operation) and finally exited Guildford where a resurgent Stagecoach had forced them out, bit by bit. Stevenage and Harlow are challenging areas to serve (being new towns) but there's no big 4 competition on the doorstep either.

In terms of Wycombe, Go Ahead were happy to purchase Carousel years ago, and they'll have seen how the Arriva operation was more recently. Their operations are on the doorstep and they are best placed to move in. I don't think it's especially bad bus territory - it's just been badly served by the ongoing malaise that is Arriva.

I think it struggled with Wycombe on balance. The elderly fleet was common across London Country. Closing High Wycombe garage though meant 16 miles of 'dead' running between High Wycombe and Amersham (round trip).

And Wycombe is a bit of an odd place - unlike Hertfordshire where you have a number of towns clustered together e.g Watford, Hemel, St Albans, Hatfield, Stevenage if you go north from Wycombe the next sizeable place is Oxford, north-east and it's Aylesbury, you've got Maidenhead due south, but that's on the A4 / M4 corridor and heading towards London you've got Beaconsfield and Gerrards Cross then you're into London.

No operator has ever really got to grips with Wycombe and that's why whilst Arriva may not have helped matters, it's telling other operators have never managed to make a go of it. Whether Carousel will remains to be seen.

 

[Mgameing123]

How did Arriva mess up in an area like Wycombe though meanwhile Carousel is thriving. Arriva had some busy services meanwhile Carousel had the less busy town routes but still managed to turn a profit.

I've mainly been following this from holiday in Spain and the mists seems to be clearing slightly now.

In Wycombe Carousel is taking over everything operated from Wycombe depot and returning largely to the structure existing before the Arriva changes last summer. We will have to 30 to Downley and 31 to Penn which look like they will interwork (as the Arriva 10 and 11 do now).

The 32 will replace the Arriva 2 and 12 but at the same frequency of every 20 minutes. Looks like they will run as now, as the Arriva 2/12 continue to interwork, but it will enable through journeys which are not possible at the moment. It also looks like they intend to work the 32 with 5 vehicles as against 6 now on the 2/12. I suspect resilience and the effect of delays will be worse as there is less flexibility to adjust and less layover time.

The 33 will replace the Arriva 3 and 13 and link to provide a through service as previously. The frequency to Totteridge will be increased from every 20 minutes to every 15 minutes. At present Arriva run 2 buses on each service (3 and 13), there will be 4 on the combined 33 with a frequency increase - again there will be less resilience.

It looks like the Bourne End services 36 & 37 will be as Arriva 6 & 7 at present with 2 buses an hour, a reduction from before the co-ordination on this corridor, which is a shame. The 800/850 look virtually unchanged. Since the latest timetable change both of these groups of services are more self contained. Little change here.

Aylesbury is more interesting. I agree that the base option for the 130 is for two journeys each hour to be diverted through Naphill to cover the Arriva X9. I took a 130 only a couple of weeks ago between Princes Risborough and Aylesbury and even that arrived early, I do think Arriva running time is very padded now. It takes about 10 minutes longer via Naphill so it would add at least one bus, assuming one bus goes via Naphill southbound and the next one goes via Naphill northbound, but departure times from Wycombe will then appear rather odd. I also suspect this would be insufficient at peak times, Redline only run every 20 minutes roughly at the moment with smaller vehicles and the loadings for both services are not bad plus some decent school traffic, I can see a further increase being justified / needed if Redline can resource it. Arriva's timetables again had more resilience built in, how will Redline manage when there are unusual traffic delays?

On the Oxford corridor, if the X20 is diverted via Haddenham that takes us to a half hourly service throughout which is what there used to be historically. That does not go via Wheatley but it looks like Oxford's 280 will cover this as far as Thame. I doubt if there is much demand from Wheatley to east of Thame. The 120 is only one journey a day so that doesn't come into it. Is anyone going to add any more here? I doubt it.

What will Arriva do with the buses released? I am sure most of these will be welcomed within the south east to help with the vehicle position. A lot of vehicles are getting to the end of their lives over the next few years and anything to reduce the pressure will be useful. The 12-plate Citaros are more interesting as they have some years left in them but are not so common within the group - there are just two at Tunbridge Wells and others at Tamworth where most of them started life. They do seem about the most reliable of the Wycombe fleet, but that's not saying much.

It seems bizarre that they have resuscitated 3580, an 09-plate E300 at Wycombe, totally non-standard - I saw this yesterday (tracking as 3013) but not sure where it is today. This can go back to Hertfordshire somewhere. Also 2982 has been off the road for 3 months, returned for one day then came out again this morning but seems to have been back in the depot by 7am. Meanwhile 4212 was still sitting in the yard when I last looked a couple of weeks ago.

I can't say where Go Ahead will get the buses it needs but it does seem to have some from its previous rescue operations on the south coast. These may be little more reliable than the Arriva ones they replace! Staff - to be seen but I guess many Arriva ones will move over. Depot capacity - I don't know either. I don't think the Carousel timetables will have the resilience needed for High Wycombe's unpredictable traffic, especially the 32 and 33, I hope they have spare buses and drivers on standby at the bus station in busy times.

I know you should be careful what you wish for but I see this as positive. Arriva have had the smell of death for so long. I think the Wycombe network recast last summer could and should have worked but they failed to provide the vehicle resources to enable it to do so and passengers have deserted it. But of course I don't have access to the financials - maybe it was just too much of a basket case. It would have been good to see what had happened if it had worked reliably.

From what I heard Thames Travel has an outstation in Reading so maybe that would be the base for 800/850 if Carousel depot can't take it.

 

[duncombec]

How did Arriva mess up in an area like Wycombe though meanwhile Carousel is thriving. Arriva had some busy services meanwhile Carousel had the less busy town routes but still managed to turn a profit.

I think reading back over some of the earlier messages in this thread should help, coupled with the general issues that affect large parts of Arriva (I hesitate to say 'all of', but it's far from a uniquely Wycombe problem) and years of underinvestment.

From what I heard Thames Travel has an outstation in Reading so maybe that would be the base for 800/850 if Carousel depot can't take it.

They have a 2-disc allowance (presumably) at the Reading Buses depot, which I would guess are for use by the X40 [Edit: As corrected below, most likely 143 + spare] (https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/view-details/licence/20197).

Operating centre	Vehicles	Trailers
COWLEY HOUSE, WATLINGTON ROAD, COWLEY, OXFORD, OX4 6GA, GB	10	0
GREAT KNOLLYS STREET, READING, RG1 7HH, GB	2	0
Collett, Southmead Industrial Estate, Didcot, OX11 7ET, GB	58	0

If this helps with future questions of this nature, registered operating centres are always included on the license, which can be searched for via https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/search/find-lorry-bus-operators/ (or google "Find Lorry and Bus Operators"). For many minibus operators this can be nominal more than actual, with lots parked at drivers homes, but they all have to at least be nominally sited somewhere.

 

[Fletcj10]

I think reading back over some of the earlier messages in this thread should help, coupled with the general issues that affect large parts of Arriva (I hesitate to say 'all of', but it's far from a uniquely Wycombe problem) and years of underinvestment.


They have a 2-disc allowance (presumably) at the Reading Buses depot, which I would guess are for use by the X40 (https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/view-details/licence/20197).



If this helps with future questions of this nature, registered operating centres are always included on the license, which can be searched for via https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/search/find-lorry-bus-operators/ (or google "Find Lorry and Bus Operators"). For many minibus operators this can be nominal more than actual, with lots parked at drivers homes, but they all have to at least be nominally sited somewhere.

I believe the PVR of 2 at Reading Buses are for the 143 even though it has a PVR of 1 I think another is there for a spare bus, i know the depot holds the buses for the 143 and in rare cases they come from didcot but maybe the other is either a spare or for the X40 however the buses in the depot are always single so would assume 143

 

[duncombec]

I believe the PVR of 2 at Reading Buses are for the 143 even though it has a PVR of 1 I think another is there for a spare bus, i know the depot holds the buses for the 143 and in rare cases they come from didcot but maybe the other is either a spare or for the X40 however the buses in the depot are always single so would assume 143

I forgot about the 143! (And managed to scroll past it on the bustimes list...) That would make much more sense if they are always single deck.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think it struggled with Wycombe on balance. The elderly fleet was common across London Country. Closing High Wycombe garage though meant 16 miles of 'dead' running between High Wycombe and Amersham (round trip).

And Wycombe is a bit of an odd place - unlike Hertfordshire where you have a number of towns clustered together e.g Watford, Hemel, St Albans, Hatfield, Stevenage if you go north from Wycombe the next sizeable place is Oxford, north-east and it's Aylesbury, you've got Maidenhead due south, but that's on the A4 / M4 corridor and heading towards London you've got Beaconsfield and Gerrards Cross then you're into London.

No operator has ever really got to grips with Wycombe and that's why whilst Arriva may not have helped matters, it's telling other operators have never managed to make a go of it. Whether Carousel will remains to be seen.

As @duncombec mentions, the issues that Arriva has experienced in Wycombe have been replicated elsewhere in the country. Not least in Guildford, as I cited. Wycombe has its challenges like many places in SE England - traffic congestion, staff recruitment and retention etc. However, we've seen Go Ahead take on Crawley very successfully, and Stagecoach appear to have capitalised on Arriva's exit from Guildford.

The reasons why no firm has made a go of Wycombe.... HE depot was closed at a time when London Country were closing other small depots like Tring and Luton that were also on the periphery of London Country operations. Having a large depot only eight miles away and the main 362 route being mainly an MA operation sealed its fate. Therefore I don't think that can be attributed to Wycombe being a fundamentally difficult place to operate in. The Q Drive era was defined by disposals of operations, and whilst Go Ahead sold out, they then decided to go back in by purchasing Carousel.

I genuinely think the problem is Arriva. We've seen exits from Winsford/Macc, Cannock, Guildford in the last few years as well as many other opcos being much reduced. I feel sorry for the local management (OpCo and depot) plus the drivers and maintenance staff having to struggle by as routes get ditched, and the fleet age increases as limited funds for capital investment are diverted to Copenhagen ferryboats rather than UK bus.

 

[greenline712]

To add to the historical comments . . . and I was an Inspector at MA in 1985-1986, and then the Manager that closed it in 1989 . . . so I DID wear the T-shirt!!

To start with . . . High Wycombe was a border town between London Transport and the rest of the world, and even NBC couldn't change that!

The closure of HE (High Wycombe) Garage was because of several factors: as alluded to above, two small garages with a PVR of around 20-25 buses each just wasn't financially sensible by 1977, and the withdrawal of Route 711 rather meant that HE was the garage to go. This saved the costs of the building (which was eventually sold, and still stands!), together with around 25 managers, inspectors and engineers . . . even then a substantial amount of money each year was saved.

Why HE and not MA (Amersham)? Well, the problem was always how to run Routes 309; 336; 353 and the Chesham rurals). It could've been possible from HE, but expensively. Conversely, the HE locals could (and were) run off the back of Route 362; such that a cycle of 362; 363; 364; 365; 362 could work within the schedule agreement then prevailing. Route 326 worked round by itself, and there were only two coaches on Route 790 in 1977.

And before you ask . . . 309 and 336 could've been run from the Watford end, and 353 from the Windsor end, but both Garston and Windsor had continuing staff shortages, and extra work would've probably dragged them down . . . indeed Route 309 had gone from GR to MA in 1975 for just that reason.

And then came MAP (Market Analysis Project), which did the best possible job, but still maintained two NBC subsiduaries in the town . . . with hindsight, it would've been better to make just one at that time, and save 40 years grief!!

Fast forward to 1989, and conditions had changed. The Chesham rurals had pretty much been lost to the independents; Routes 336 and 353 had been reduced to hourly with no peak extras; Route 309 had also gone . . . and MA Garage was gently subsiding into the brook at the back of the building!! The pits needed pumping out every time there was heavy rain, and some major work was required to stabilise things. Add to that the emphasis of work had shifted back to Wycombe, especially on Green Line (10 coaches each weekday), and it all seemed rather obvious. This time, an "outstation" at MA would be retained for the remaining 8-9 PVR, with engineering support from SL (Slough) Garage.

Unfortunately, the Wycombe operations of LCNW were to be concentrated at West Wycombe, with maintenance done by the local BRS (British Road Services) depot . . . this was never going to work with an aged fleet . . . and BeeLine gained the ascendancy. After almost 12 months at WW, I quit . . . I could see that it wasn't going to work, and the upcoming sale to Luton and District would probably have left me without a job . . . so I jumped before I was pushed!!

I didn't really follow what happened after that . . . but upthread has probably got it pretty much right.

To bring this back to today . . . frankly, High Wycombe isn't big enough to sustain two operators; it probably hasn't been for ever, even back in LT days . . . so blaming the LPTB draughtsmen for putting a line through the town in 1930 is probably just!! With one operator . . . maybe buses in the town have a chance now . . .

 

[GusB]

While it's useful to have some historical background in order to understand the current situation, the thread is not supposed to be a historical account of services in the area. Let's keep it to current matters, please.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

To add to the historical comments . . . and I was an Inspector at MA in 1985-1986, and then the Manager that closed it in 1989 . . . so I DID wear the T-shirt!!

To start with . . . High Wycombe was a border town between London Transport and the rest of the world, and even NBC couldn't change that!

The closure of HE (High Wycombe) Garage was because of several factors: as alluded to above, two small garages with a PVR of around 20-25 buses each just wasn't financially sensible by 1977, and the withdrawal of Route 711 rather meant that HE was the garage to go. This saved the costs of the building (which was eventually sold, and still stands!), together with around 25 managers, inspectors and engineers . . . even then a substantial amount of money each year was saved.

Why HE and not MA (Amersham)? Well, the problem was always how to run Routes 309; 336; 353 and the Chesham rurals). It could've been possible from HE, but expensively. Conversely, the HE locals could (and were) run off the back of Route 362; such that a cycle of 362; 363; 364; 365; 362 could work within the schedule agreement then prevailing. Route 326 worked round by itself, and there were only two coaches on Route 790 in 1977.

And before you ask . . . 309 and 336 could've been run from the Watford end, and 353 from the Windsor end, but both Garston and Windsor had continuing staff shortages, and extra work would've probably dragged them down . . . indeed Route 309 had gone from GR to MA in 1975 for just that reason.

And then came MAP (Market Analysis Project), which did the best possible job, but still maintained two NBC subsiduaries in the town . . . with hindsight, it would've been better to make just one at that time, and save 40 years grief!!

Fast forward to 1989, and conditions had changed. The Chesham rurals had pretty much been lost to the independents; Routes 336 and 353 had been reduced to hourly with no peak extras; Route 309 had also gone . . . and MA Garage was gently subsiding into the brook at the back of the building!! The pits needed pumping out every time there was heavy rain, and some major work was required to stabilise things. Add to that the emphasis of work had shifted back to Wycombe, especially on Green Line (10 coaches each weekday), and it all seemed rather obvious. This time, an "outstation" at MA would be retained for the remaining 8-9 PVR, with engineering support from SL (Slough) Garage.

Unfortunately, the Wycombe operations of LCNW were to be concentrated at West Wycombe, with maintenance done by the local BRS (British Road Services) depot . . . this was never going to work with an aged fleet . . . and BeeLine gained the ascendancy. After almost 12 months at WW, I quit . . . I could see that it wasn't going to work, and the upcoming sale to Luton and District would probably have left me without a job . . . so I jumped before I was pushed!!

I didn't really follow what happened after that . . . but upthread has probably got it pretty much right.

To bring this back to today . . . frankly, High Wycombe isn't big enough to sustain two operators; it probably hasn't been for ever, even back in LT days . . . so blaming the LPTB draughtsmen for putting a line through the town in 1930 is probably just!! With one operator . . . maybe buses in the town have a chance now . . .

Thanks for that detailed response. There were a few towns where the two depots existed in a similar manner. As well as Guildford, there were others such as Luton, though Crawley and East Grinstead were soon closed after the NBC was formed.

It's fair to say that Wycombe will never be a goldmine but with one operator who can actually give it some TLC (rather than Arriva who squandered the opportunity), Go Ahead may fashion a decent business.

 

[Lynford1976]

To add to the historical comments . . . and I was an Inspector at MA in 1985-1986, and then the Manager that closed it in 1989 . . . so I DID wear the T-shirt!!

To start with . . . High Wycombe was a border town between London Transport and the rest of the world, and even NBC couldn't change that!

The closure of HE (High Wycombe) Garage was because of several factors: as alluded to above, two small garages with a PVR of around 20-25 buses each just wasn't financially sensible by 1977, and the withdrawal of Route 711 rather meant that HE was the garage to go. This saved the costs of the building (which was eventually sold, and still stands!), together with around 25 managers, inspectors and engineers . . . even then a substantial amount of money each year was saved.

Why HE and not MA (Amersham)? Well, the problem was always how to run Routes 309; 336; 353 and the Chesham rurals). It could've been possible from HE, but expensively. Conversely, the HE locals could (and were) run off the back of Route 362; such that a cycle of 362; 363; 364; 365; 362 could work within the schedule agreement then prevailing. Route 326 worked round by itself, and there were only two coaches on Route 790 in 1977.

And before you ask . . . 309 and 336 could've been run from the Watford end, and 353 from the Windsor end, but both Garston and Windsor had continuing staff shortages, and extra work would've probably dragged them down . . . indeed Route 309 had gone from GR to MA in 1975 for just that reason.

And then came MAP (Market Analysis Project), which did the best possible job, but still maintained two NBC subsiduaries in the town . . . with hindsight, it would've been better to make just one at that time, and save 40 years grief!!

Fast forward to 1989, and conditions had changed. The Chesham rurals had pretty much been lost to the independents; Routes 336 and 353 had been reduced to hourly with no peak extras; Route 309 had also gone . . . and MA Garage was gently subsiding into the brook at the back of the building!! The pits needed pumping out every time there was heavy rain, and some major work was required to stabilise things. Add to that the emphasis of work had shifted back to Wycombe, especially on Green Line (10 coaches each weekday), and it all seemed rather obvious. This time, an "outstation" at MA would be retained for the remaining 8-9 PVR, with engineering support from SL (Slough) Garage.

Unfortunately, the Wycombe operations of LCNW were to be concentrated at West Wycombe, with maintenance done by the local BRS (British Road Services) depot . . . this was never going to work with an aged fleet . . . and BeeLine gained the ascendancy. After almost 12 months at WW, I quit . . . I could see that it wasn't going to work, and the upcoming sale to Luton and District would probably have left me without a job . . . so I jumped before I was pushed!!

I didn't really follow what happened after that . . . but upthread has probably got it pretty much right.

To bring this back to today . . . frankly, High Wycombe isn't big enough to sustain two operators; it probably hasn't been for ever, even back in LT days . . . so blaming the LPTB draughtsmen for putting a line through the town in 1930 is probably just!! With one operator . . . maybe buses in the town have a chance now . . .

An excellent summary, thank you!

 

[AlastairFraser]

They have a 2-disc allowance (presumably) at the Reading Buses depot, which I would guess are for use by the X40 [Edit: As corrected below, most likely 143 + spare] (https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/view-details/licence/20197)

An interesting proposition to consider - does Reading Buses have enough room at Great Knollys St to expand the Thames Travel outstation?

 

[A0wen]

How did Arriva mess up in an area like Wycombe though meanwhile Carousel is thriving. Arriva had some busy services meanwhile Carousel had the less busy town routes but still managed to turn a profit.


From what I heard Thames Travel has an outstation in Reading so maybe that would be the base for 800/850 if Carousel depot can't take it.

I'm not sure it's possible to state Carousel is "thriving".

Yes, it's taking over most of the Arriva routes, but are its passenger numbers growing like for like ? Will it retain the routes its taken over from Arriva in the medium term or will they be pruned in terms of route or timetable ? We don't know. It may be that Carousel survives by virtue of being "last man standing" in Wycombe but operating 2/3rds or 3/4s of the route / frequencies Arriva did.

 

[cactustwirly]

An interesting proposition to consider - does RB have enough room at Great Knollys St to expand the TT outstation?

It's also used by First for the Railair

 

[RELL6L]

I really cannot see Carousel bothering with an outstation in Reading for the 800/850. Yes, rather bizarrely, Arriva do start 4 boards by running empty to Reading plus 2 empty to Henley, also they finish two by running empty back from Reading. I have no idea why it is necessary to run a journeys from Reading at 05.00 and 05.35 but they do. However the complications of covering driver holidays, illness, breakdowns etc would seem to outweigh any benefit.

Very interesting to hear about the later days of Amersham and High Wycombe as London Country - thank you for that insight.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm not sure it's possible to state Carousel is "thriving".

Yes, it's taking over most of the Arriva routes, but are its passenger numbers growing like for like ? Will it retain the routes its taken over from Arriva in the medium term or will they be pruned in terms of route or timetable ? We don't know. It may be that Carousel survives by virtue of being "last man standing" in Wycombe but operating 2/3rds or 3/4s of the route / frequencies Arriva did.

No, they are the lost relation of the OBC managed companies.

Their fleet is old, it's Thames Travel cast offs, which were originally OBC cast offs.

The Citaros are from 2009, Arriva are using newer 12 plated ones for example.

I'm not convinced the bus service is going to be any better.
Thames Travel are very so so, they seem very similar to Arriva in terms of the quality of the service.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No, they are the lost relation of the OBC managed companies.

Their fleet is old, it's Thames Travel cast offs, which were originally OBC cast offs.

The Citaros are from 2009, Arriva are using newer 12 plated ones for example.

I'm not convinced the bus service is going to be any better.
Thames Travel are very so so, they seem very similar to Arriva in terms of the quality of the service.

Clearly, Wycombe isn't a gold mine. Carousel has received OBC castoffs but even so, they have 14 full sized vehicles (not the Sprinters) that are newer than the most modern Arriva vehicle. They do have some Citaros that are 2009, but some also that are marginally newer too. Surviving on cascades may well have been the only way to make money in a town that can't sustain two operators and two depots. In that respect, thriving may be an overstatement but they had certain turned a loss maker (when competition was higher in 2017) into a modest profit maker before Covid struck. I'd certain wonder how much mileage are they operating (%) compared to Arriva?

 

[sturfc]

True about the vehicles, but a number of the 2009 Citaros had Euro 6 upgrade work carried out as part of their use on the Uxbridge corridor, so money has been invested. Also that corridor has been expanded considerably over the years by Carousel after Arriva left it, with support from Heathrow. There was an interesting interview this morning on Wycombe local radio with Luke Marion the MD of the Oxford / Thames Travel / Carousel group which talks about the challenges and their plans for routes, depot infrastructure etc and he also referenced they may need to look at running some of the Reading service from the other end if the route is developed further. A link to the site is here where the recording will be added to today apparantly for those that are interested although is not there yet, and covers a summary again of the situation on routes, the route changes and frequencies;

Arriva to close High Wycombe & Aylesbury depots - What does this mean for the local bus service? - Wycombe Sound

Wycombe Sound the multi-award-winning local radio station for High Wycombe in Buckinghamshire on 106.6 FM, online or via Radioplayer #WycSo

wycombesound.org.uk

Hope this is of interest,

 

[Starmill]

Senior management at The Go Ahead Group certainly seem more willing across England as a whole to wait for a market upturn. Arriva Group seem less willing to tolerate slim returns or no returns at all in the immediate future, while waiting for the possibility of a market upturn that may never come. Perhaps Go Ahead place a little more weight onto the value of their brands than Arriva do. I guess I can sympathise with both approaches.

 

[goldisgood]

Reported on Oxford and Chiltern Bus Page this week by Luke Marion (managing director) that Go Ahead are aiming to move Carousel Buses to the current Arriva depot in Wycombe, seen under the Go Ahead section.

Luke Marion - MD

We are hoping to move to the Arriva Cressex facility, however this requires Arriva to work with us as although they are not the freeholder of the site, they do hold the lease on the property for many years to come.

We are hopeful however that we can agree terms to take the site on and are awaiting a proposal from Arriva.

 

[jackgwycombe]

There was an interesting interview this morning on Wycombe local radio with Luke Marion the MD of the Oxford / Thames Travel / Carousel group which talks about the challenges and their plans for routes, depot infrastructure etc and he also referenced they may need to look at running some of the Reading service from the other end if the route is developed further. A link to the site is here where the recording will be added to today apparantly for those that are interested although is not there yet, and covers a summary again of the situation on routes, the route changes and frequencies;

Arriva to close High Wycombe & Aylesbury depots - What does this mean for the local bus service? - Wycombe Sound

Wycombe Sound the multi-award-winning local radio station for High Wycombe in Buckinghamshire on 106.6 FM, online or via Radioplayer #WycSo

wycombesound.org.uk

Hope this is of interest,

I also listened! Some of the stuff I thought was quite interesting:

• Carousel are planning on running the Reading 800/850 and Bourne End 36/37 at current levels until September where they plan on hopefully making improvements, as they will have the data on these services. Luke mentioned they have data from Arriva however its very unreliable due to the ticket machine issues they have been experiencing.
• Carousel have made a £2.8M investment in second hand buses for the services they will take on from July. The first should be delivered in the coming weeks for repaint.
• Even though they do plan on taking on the Arriva depot, he anticipates they will outgrow it, so they are looking at other options for mid-long term.
• They have been in discussions with the council to improve a number of their existing services. One that was highlighted was introducing a regular service between High Wycombe and Beaconsfield via Penn.

 

[GusB]

Reported on Oxford and Chiltern Bus Page this week by Luke Marion (managing director) that Go Ahead are aiming to move Carousel Buses to the current Arriva depot in Wycombe.

That's a long page to wade through, and not very readable. Would you quote the relevant part, please?

 

[Voyager 2953]

Arriva have failed in Wycombe and other parts of the country because of poor management. I can’t wait until this is looked into and those at fault are held responsible. As I said previously there was too much of an emphasis on fancy leaflets such as the “glow up” and cutting services at the customers’ expense with no clear advantage.

The buses are worn out, cold in the winter, hot in the summer, uncomfortable and make no worrying noises. The carousel buses have gotten busier and Arriva services have had decreased levels of service since September 2023. The whole thing is a shambles from top to bottom and it’s a good thing they disappear from Wycombe. No one will miss Arriva contrary to what one may say. The reality is the project at Wycombe using Optibus has been a shambles. Ticket machines not working is another thing. How do you expect to make money with ticket machines not working. Carousel don’t have this issue despite using the same machines albeit upgraded ones.


Running a service from Leicester is a ridiculous thing to do. Go Ahead and Stagecoach do not do this because it’s silly. Network managers need to have local knowledge of the area they are managing not looking at data from a computer 100 miles away. How does a town as large as Wycombe operate at a loss especially when you have the lions share of the work.

Carousel have pledged newer buses into the area without even running a single soon to be former Arriva service yet. It’s pathetic and the only thing that needs to be said is sorry.

This announcement was known of beforehand too, hence why Aylesbury’s 5461 was sent off for a repaint in April..

 

[Robertj21a]

Arriva have failed in Wycombe and other parts of the country because of poor management. I can’t wait until this is looked into and those at fault are held responsible. As I said previously there was too much of an emphasis on fancy leaflets such as the “glow up” and cutting services at the customers’ expense with no clear advantage.

The buses are worn out, cold in the winter, hot in the summer, uncomfortable and make no worrying noises. The carousel buses have gotten busier and Arriva services have had decreased levels of service since September 2023. The whole thing is a shambles from top to bottom and it’s a good thing they disappear from Wycombe. No one will miss Arriva contrary to what one may say. The reality is the project at Wycombe using Optibus has been a shambles. Ticket machines not working is another thing. How do you expect to make money with ticket machines not working. Carousel don’t have this issue despite using the same machines albeit upgraded ones.


Running a service from Leicester is a ridiculous thing to do. Go Ahead and Stagecoach do not do this because it’s silly. Network managers need to have local knowledge of the area they are managing not looking at data from a computer 100 miles away. How does a town as large as Wycombe operate at a loss especially when you have the lions share of the work.

Wycombe was promised new buses my Matt but that was silently forgotten about and no update was given until questioned and this is the Arriva attitude as a whole. Very lazy and lacklustre.

Carousel have pledged newer buses into the area without even running a single soon to be former Arriva service yet. It’s pathetic and the only thing that needs to be said is sorry.

This announcement was known of beforehand too, hence why Aylesbury’s 5461 was sent off for a repaint in April..

Sorry, you've lost me. Where is there reference to a route from Leicester?

 

[WibbleWobble]

Sorry, you've lost me. Where is there reference to a route from Leicester?

Leicester being the location of the head office

 

[Roger1973]

An interesting proposition to consider - does RB have enough room at Great Knollys St to expand the TT outstation?

Gut feeling rather than insider knowledge, but I'd say there's probably room for another half dozen buses or so - quite a few Reading Buses routes aren't at the frequency (or peak vehicle requirement) they were at before Covid.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Gut feeling rather than insider knowledge, but I'd say there's probably room for another half dozen buses or so - quite a few Reading Buses routes aren't at the frequency (or peak vehicle requirement) they were at before Covid.

But neither is overall revenue…..

 

[Simon75]

Reported on Oxford and Chiltern Bus Page this week by Luke Marion (managing director) that Go Ahead are aiming to move Carousel Buses to the current Arriva depot in Wycombe, seen under the Go Ahead section.

How many buses can the Arriva depot hold, compared with the Carousel depot ?