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Arriva to close Aylesbury and High Wycombe depots

lincman

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2014
Messages
126
Arriva have failed in Wycombe and other parts of the country because of poor management. I can’t wait until this is looked into and those at fault are held responsible. As I said previously there was too much of an emphasis on fancy leaflets such as the “glow up” and cutting services at the customers’ expense with no clear advantage.

The buses are worn out, cold in the winter, hot in the summer, uncomfortable and make no worrying noises. The carousel buses have gotten busier and Arriva services have had decreased levels of service since September 2023. The whole thing is a shambles from top to bottom and it’s a good thing they disappear from Wycombe. No one will miss Arriva contrary to what one may say. The reality is the project at Wycombe using Optibus has been a shambles. Ticket machines not working is another thing. How do you expect to make money with ticket machines not working. Carousel don’t have this issue despite using the same machines albeit upgraded ones.


Running a service from Leicester is a ridiculous thing to do. Go Ahead and Stagecoach do not do this because it’s silly. Network managers need to have local knowledge of the area they are managing not looking at data from a computer 100 miles away. How does a town as large as Wycombe operate at a loss especially when you have the lions share of the work.

Carousel have pledged newer buses into the area without even running a single soon to be former Arriva service yet. It’s pathetic and the only thing that needs to be said is sorry.

This announcement was known of beforehand too, hence why Aylesbury’s 5461 was sent off for a repaint in April..

The decline at Wycombe goes back many years, even when part of the Shires management structure at Luton. If you believe that this is all due to poor management you really need to look at the whole situation, I agree some management decisions were questionable but Wycombe was for along period not a very harmonious depot leading to very poor industrial relations working on archaic practises. This lead to poor financial performance which in turn lead to the depots demise, this whole situation cannot laid solely at either parties door.
 
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Mgameing123

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2023
Messages
212
Location
Denmark

The decline at Wycombe goes back many years, even when part of the Shires management structure at Luton. If you believe that this is all due to poor management you really need to look at the whole situation, I agree some management decisions were questionable but Wycombe was for along period not a very harmonious depot leading to very poor industrial relations working on archaic practises. This lead to poor financial performance which in turn lead to the depots demise, this whole situation cannot laid solely at either parties door.
It obvious that Arriva High Wycombe not turning a profit was just a management issue. Routes from Wycombe are very busy but managed to turn losses. Arriva needs to step their game up if they don’t want to lose it all.

That's a long page to wade through, and not very readable. Would you quote the relevant part, please?
It’s readable enough. It comes usually in fleet development area.
 

A0wen

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,565
It obvious that Arriva High Wycombe not turning a profit was just a management issue. Routes from Wycombe are very busy but managed to turn losses. Arriva needs to step their game up if they don’t want to lose it all.

How so?

Fare revenue is largely capped - either at £2 plus govt top up for local journeys on ENCTS (i.e. OAP) passes, which we know from other posters doesn't cover the costs of operation. So buses being busy doesn't mean they are profitable.

Salaries in the Wycombe area are higher as it's a reasonably affluent area (that will affect drivers plus maintenance staff) - if for drivers they can earn more delivery driving for Tesco's then there's the competition for employees, and costs of things like diesel and other supplies all of which have increased.
 

Voyager 2953

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2023
Messages
34
Location
London59

The decline at Wycombe goes back many years, even when part of the Shires management structure at Luton. If you believe that this is all due to poor management you really need to look at the whole situation, I agree some management decisions were questionable but Wycombe was for along period not a very harmonious depot leading to very poor industrial relations working on archaic practises. This lead to poor financial performance which in turn lead to the depots demise, this whole situation cannot laid solely at either parties door.

With all due respect, it is the management who are to blame irrespective of what you are quoting. What happened many moons ago and many moons before Arriva commenced operations in Wycombe has nothing to do with the current shambles of an operation Arriva offered.

It’s been bad and it’s been bad all over the country for Arriva, Scotland West, Newcastle, Durham ,Manchester, North Wales, Northfleet, Maidstone and Guildford tell the same story. This cannot be denied.

Lack of investment, where has all the money they got from Buckinghamshire Council gone? I don’t see any investment so very confused; must have been spent on the leaflets and timetables.

They haven’t tried all they can with Aylesbury and Wycombe, hence why there are still buses missing daily and ticket machines not working on a daily. Why not bring some of the many serviceable buses they have in storage to depots such as Wycombe, Aylesbury and Hemel to see if that would improve things somewhat.
 

lincman

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2014
Messages
126
With all due respect, it is the management who are to blame irrespective of what you are quoting. What happened many moons ago and many moons before Arriva commenced operations in Wycombe has nothing to do with the current shambles of an operation Arriva offered.

It’s been bad and it’s been bad all over the country for Arriva, Scotland West, Newcastle, Durham ,Manchester, North Wales, Northfleet, Maidstone and Guildford tell the same story. This cannot be denied.

Lack of investment, where has all the money they got from Buckinghamshire Council gone? I don’t see any investment so very confused; must have been spent on the leaflets and timetables.

They haven’t tried all they can with Aylesbury and Wycombe, hence why there are still buses missing daily and ticket machines not working on a daily. Why not bring some of the many serviceable buses they have in storage to depots such as Wycombe, Aylesbury and Hemel to see if that would improve things somewhat.

I thank you for insight into the situation at Wycombe, but busy routes at lots of passengers do not make a depot proffitable if the cost base is unsustainable, restrictive practices and poor cooperation from some quarters did not help, and I say again this was an obsvious decline and that Wycombe has lasted as long as it has is quite surprising.
 
Last edited:

arrivamatt

Member
Joined
27 Nov 2023
Messages
12
Location
United Kingdom
The unfortunate news regarding the potential fates for High Wycombe and Aylesbury is incredibly saddening, both professionally and personally. Most of the responses in thread take a balanced view on external factors that are outside of Arriva's control, as well as some fair critique of how things could have been improved. Having spent close to 18 months working closely with both teams at the respective locations, they effectively became second homes whilst we looked to reinvigorate both networks which did meet the commercial ambitions for boosting ridership and improving on time performance. Relinquishing these two depots at the end of last year as part of an internal restructure was regrettable, as we were just about making significant inroads on the business' transformation. This does mean that I haven't been close to the detail for some time. Naturally, first thoughts are with the great teams at both locations who will certainly be well taken care of during this difficult time. The announcement definitely does not reflect the efforts of everyone at both locations, who've championed doing things differently and rethinking the status quo.

Sadly, increased costs and a challenging labour market is going to present difficulties in both mid-sized towns, with close proximity to London where higher wages are an attractor. In the case of High Wycombe, a few have spoken about the days of London Country's difficulties several decades ago - in a post-COVID world, spreading an already reduced pool of talented prospective employees across two mid-sized operators means that there's absolute sense for consolidation in a more concentrated market. Having worked for Go Ahead in the past, and seeing the achievements made in Bournemouth, the town's bus network and its customers will be in safe hands despite this not being the desired outcome if the proposals do come to fruition. The £2.5m+ figure quoted by Go Ahead into a refreshed fleet of 35 buses, and £4k new drivers' bonus clearly articulates the scale of investment required - naturally this'll be recouped through synergies in the mid/long term. Genuinely wish them the best and look forward to their seeing their energy, hard work and enthusiasm focus on ridership growth; I'll certainly visit to see the good work continue.

There's also the geographical issues in High Wycombe - every route leaving the town centre always has a steep incline to endure. This does put increased wear and tear on major units operating on a marginal network, where investment in new vehicles isn't going to be commercially viable - a problem shared by Carousel, a point to which Luke has spoken on. Where mid-life or fully depreciated vehicles have benefits to the balance sheet, the trade-off is in an older age profile with a requirement for more mechanical intervention - again, difficult where the skilled labour needed to sustain this is in a nationwide shortage.

Arriva have failed in Wycombe and other parts of the country because of poor management. I can’t wait until this is looked into and those at fault are held responsible. As I said previously there was too much of an emphasis on fancy leaflets such as the “glow up” and cutting services at the customers’ expense with no clear advantage.

The buses are worn out, cold in the winter, hot in the summer, uncomfortable and make no worrying noises. The carousel buses have gotten busier and Arriva services have had decreased levels of service since September 2023. The whole thing is a shambles from top to bottom and it’s a good thing they disappear from Wycombe. No one will miss Arriva contrary to what one may say. The reality is the project at Wycombe using Optibus has been a shambles. Ticket machines not working is another thing. How do you expect to make money with ticket machines not working. Carousel don’t have this issue despite using the same machines albeit upgraded ones.

Running a service from Leicester is a ridiculous thing to do. Go Ahead and Stagecoach do not do this because it’s silly. Network managers need to have local knowledge of the area they are managing not looking at data from a computer 100 miles away. How does a town as large as Wycombe operate at a loss especially when you have the lions share of the work.

Carousel have pledged newer buses into the area without even running a single soon to be former Arriva service yet. It’s pathetic and the only thing that needs to be said is sorry.

This announcement was known of beforehand too, hence why Aylesbury’s 5461 was sent off for a repaint in April..

Have no issue with targeting some of the above criticism at me personally, there's full entitlement to do that and convey your view, but to correct some assumptions that have been stated before on this forum:
  • To achieve growth in patronage, it must be promoted effectively. The leaflets and campaign costs were relatively inexpensive and the take-up was huge; we had several compliments from customers and industry commentators on reinstating this long-lost publicity medium. Some of the growth we experienced was directly attributed to an increase of visibility across a wider demographic for where the network serves.
  • There were no service cuts in September 2023. In High Wycombe, all but one route saw a maintenance of frequency (with punctuality improvements) or an enhancement, all within the same resources. Following the January changes at High Wycombe and the Aylesbury re-write, we introduced and refined:
    • Doubling of frequency to Penn
    • 50% increase of buses per hour to Downley, including double the number of buses on Sundays.
    • 33% increase of buses per hour to Booker
    • 33% increase of buses per hour to Micklefield
    • Doubling of buses on Sundays to Bourne End
    • Aylesbury's changes in January 2024 was reshaping the network around interurban connectivity, but we also doubled the buses from Aylesbury to Oxford on Sundays
  • High Wycombe is not run from Leicester. The Leicester Head Office is, unsurprisingly, the home to some centralised functions, an operating model that is shared by the other major big groups.
  • You'll be pleased to know that the Network Manager was looking at data from a computer less than 1 mile away. Yes, commercial teams do need to be visible, experience the nuances of their respective patches, speak to customers and drivers which was plentiful at the time of rethinking High Wycombe's network and as part of the cyclical review of performance - but there's also some work around data and the significant amount of efforts in implementing/mobilising to complete.
  • The repaint programme has no relation to the depot footprint.
There are plenty of learnings that have come from the respective Buckinghamshire network reviews - the principles employed in both towns worked in terms of boosting ridership and promoting connectivity. Some routes went beyond our expectation and others where feedback from customers were vital in implementing further refinements that led to their success. Others may have a different perspective or experience, and certainly acknowledge some of the service delivery challenges which had its impact in delivering the network benefits introduced.

It's not the absolute end of Arriva's involvement in Buckinghamshire, and look forward to seeing how things pan out in the future.
 
Last edited:

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,544
With all due respect, it is the management who are to blame irrespective of what you are quoting. What happened many moons ago and many moons before Arriva commenced operations in Wycombe has nothing to do with the current shambles of an operation Arriva offered.

It’s been bad and it’s been bad all over the country for Arriva, Scotland West, Newcastle, Durham ,Manchester, North Wales, Northfleet, Maidstone and Guildford tell the same story. This cannot be denied.

Lack of investment, where has all the money they got from Buckinghamshire Council gone? I don’t see any investment so very confused; must have been spent on the leaflets and timetables.

They haven’t tried all they can with Aylesbury and Wycombe, hence why there are still buses missing daily and ticket machines not working on a daily. Why not bring some of the many serviceable buses they have in storage to depots such as Wycombe, Aylesbury and Hemel to see if that would improve things somewhat.
What makes up all these 'many serviceable buses' - where are they ?
 

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
2,272
It's also used by First for the Railair
Interesting - must be some element of cross-subsidy for both to use the facilities.
I really cannot see Carousel bothering with an outstation in Reading for the 800/850. Yes, rather bizarrely, Arriva do start 4 boards by running empty to Reading plus 2 empty to Henley, also they finish two by running empty back from Reading. I have no idea why it is necessary to run a journeys from Reading at 05.00 and 05.35 but they do. However the complications of covering driver holidays, illness, breakdowns etc would seem to outweigh any benefit.
Reading has significant population north of the river (a lot of who use services like schools and workplaces in Oxon), so there is a significant traffic load heading north from Reading at times you wouldn't expect.
Even if buses use the faster A404/M4/A4 route to get into Reading from Cressex empty in time for the first journeys, it's still an 18 mile run to/from Reading. That will cost you a reasonable amount in fuel and staff costs, while the 800/850 stop in central Reading is 10 mins max from Gt. Knollys St.
No, they are the lost relation of the OBC managed companies.

Their fleet is old, it's Thames Travel cast offs, which were originally OBC cast offs.

The Citaros are from 2009, Arriva are using newer 12 plated ones for example.

I'm not convinced the bus service is going to be any better.
Thames Travel are very so so, they seem very similar to Arriva in terms of the quality of the service.
The service will be better in terms of reliability, if anything, and the wider area that you are able to use day tickets in (Arriva had a decent network heading north from Wycombe to MK/Aylesbury, but not really east from Wycombe towards London).
True about the vehicles, but a number of the 2009 Citaros had Euro 6 upgrade work carried out as part of their use on the Uxbridge corridor, so money has been invested. Also that corridor has been expanded considerably over the years by Carousel after Arriva left it, with support from Heathrow. There was an interesting interview this morning on Wycombe local radio with Luke Marion the MD of the Oxford / Thames Travel / Carousel group which talks about the challenges and their plans for routes, depot infrastructure etc and he also referenced they may need to look at running some of the Reading service from the other end if the route is developed further. A link to the site is here where the recording will be added to today apparantly for those that are interested although is not there yet, and covers a summary again of the situation on routes, the route changes and frequencies;


Hope this is of interest,
Thank you very much for the link to the interview. V. interesting
Gut feeling rather than insider knowledge, but I'd say there's probably room for another half dozen buses or so - quite a few Reading Buses routes aren't at the frequency (or peak vehicle requirement) they were at before Covid.
A fair point.

The unfortunate news regarding the potential fates for High Wycombe and Aylesbury is incredibly saddening, both professionally and personally. Most of the responses in thread take a balanced view on external factors that are outside of Arriva's control, as well as some fair critique of how things could have been improved. Having spent close to 18 months working closely with both teams at the respective locations, they effectively became second homes whilst we looked to reinvigorate both networks which did meet the commercial ambitions for boosting ridership and improving on time performance. Relinquishing these two depots at the end of last year as part of an internal restructure was regrettable, as we were just about making significant inroads on the business' transformation. This does mean that I haven't been close to the detail for some time. Naturally, first thoughts are with the great teams at both locations who will certainly be well taken care of during this difficult time. The announcement definitely does not reflect the efforts of everyone at both locations, who've championed doing things differently and rethinking the status quo.

Sadly, increased costs and a challenging labour market is going to present difficulties in both mid-sized towns, with close proximity to London where higher wages are an attractor. In the case of High Wycombe, a few have spoken about the days of London Country's difficulties several decades ago - in a post-COVID world, spreading an already reduced pool of talented prospective employees across two mid-sized operators means that there's absolute sense for consolidation in a more concentrated market. Having worked for Go Ahead in the past, and seeing the achievements made in Bournemouth, the town's bus network and its customers will be in safe hands despite this not being the desired outcome if the proposals do come to fruition. The £2.5m+ figure quoted by Go Ahead into a refreshed fleet of 35 buses, and £4k new drivers' bonus clearly articulates the scale of investment required - naturally this'll be recouped through synergies in the mid/long term. Genuinely wish them the best and look forward to their seeing their energy, hard work and enthusiasm focus on ridership growth; I'll certainly visit to see the good work continue.

There's also the geographical issues in High Wycombe - every route leaving the town centre always has a steep incline to endure. This does put increased wear and tear on major units operating on a marginal network, where investment in new vehicles isn't going to be commercially viable - a problem shared by Carousel, a point to which Luke has spoken on. Where mid-life or fully depreciated vehicles have benefits to the balance sheet, the trade-off is in an older age profile with a requirement for more mechanical intervention - again, difficult where the skilled labour needed to sustain this is in a nationwide shortage.



Have no issue with targeting some of the above criticism at me personally, there's full entitlement to do that and convey your view, but to correct some assumptions that have been stated before on this forum:
  • To achieve growth in patronage, it must be promoted effectively. The leaflets and campaign costs were relatively inexpensive and the take-up was huge; we had several compliments from customers and industry commentators on reinstating this long-lost publicity medium. Some of the growth we experienced was directly attributed to an increase of visibility across a wider demographic for where the network serves.
  • There were no service cuts in September 2023. In High Wycombe, all but one route saw a maintenance of frequency (with punctuality improvements) or an enhancement, all within the same resources. Following the January changes at High Wycombe and the Aylesbury re-write, we introduced and refined:
    • Doubling of frequency to Penn
    • 50% increase of buses per hour to Downley, including double the number of buses on Sundays.
    • 50% increase of buses per hour to Booker
    • 50% increase of buses per hour to Micklefield
    • Doubling of buses on Sundays to Bourne End
    • Aylesbury's changes in January 2024 was reshaping the network around interurban connectivity, but we also doubled the buses from Aylesbury to Oxford on Sundays
  • High Wycombe is not run from Leicester. The Leicester Head Office is, unsurprisingly, the home to some centralised functions, an operating model that is shared by the other major big groups.
  • You'll be pleased to know that the Network Manager was looking at data from a computer less than 1 mile away. Yes, commercial teams do need to be visible, experience the nuances of their respective patches, speak to customers and drivers which was plentiful at the time of rethinking High Wycombe's network and as part of the cyclical review of performance - but there's also some work around data and the significant amount of efforts in implementing/mobilising to complete.
  • The repaint programme has no relation to the depot footprint.
There are plenty of learnings that have come from the respective Buckinghamshire network reviews - the principles employed in both towns worked in terms of boosting ridership and promoting connectivity. Some routes went beyond our expectation and others where feedback from customers were vital in implementing further refinements that led to their success. Others may have a different perspective or experience, and certainly acknowledge some of the service delivery challenges which had its impact in delivering the network benefits introduced.

It's not the absolute end of Arriva's involvement in Buckinghamshire, and look forward to seeing how things pan out in the future.
Thank you for your contribution. It's nice to hear an insider's point of view about the closure
 

RELL6L

Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
1,014
It’s really interesting to hear the contribution from @arrivamatt and thank you for posting and for your honesty throughout the last couple of years. I know nothing of the financials nor the industrial relations and working practices but I do see buses with decent loads so I would have thought it ought to be possible to make money. I believe the changes last summer and in January were positive and provided the foundation to run a decent service despite the terrain and the traffic.

In my view the problem has been the inability to run the services due - it appears- to insufficient roadworthy vehicles. I know BusTimes isn’t perfect and tracking is sporadic, but ticket machines not working really is inexcusable. Today just shows it up. It’s a Saturday so the frequency of the 2/12 is less, no peaks, also frequencies have reduced with no buses leaving- so there should be lots spare. But no, the 800 at 12.30 was pulled from the 10/11 and the 800 at 14.30 pulled from the 2/12, leaving one hour gaps now in all these local services (unless something comes out for the 2 at 15.50). In both cases the incoming bus used was due to arrive after the time the 800 it was subbed onto should have left. Is there really nothing else that runs?
 

Voyager 2953

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2023
Messages
34
Location
London59
What makes up all these 'many serviceable buses' - where are they ?

Arriva in London have 9 Wrightbus Streetdecks, around 15 Streetlites, multiple DB300s and multiple Trident Enviros in storage across various garages. Some of these have been sold but most are very much gathering dust. There is one Streetdeck which in a state of disrepair but the others are fine.

The unfortunate news regarding the potential fates for High Wycombe and Aylesbury is incredibly saddening, both professionally and personally. Most of the responses in thread take a balanced view on external factors that are outside of Arriva's control, as well as some fair critique of how things could have been improved. Having spent close to 18 months working closely with both teams at the respective locations, they effectively became second homes whilst we looked to reinvigorate both networks which did meet the commercial ambitions for boosting ridership and improving on time performance. Relinquishing these two depots at the end of last year as part of an internal restructure was regrettable, as we were just about making significant inroads on the business' transformation. This does mean that I haven't been close to the detail for some time. Naturally, first thoughts are with the great teams at both locations who will certainly be well taken care of during this difficult time. The announcement definitely does not reflect the efforts of everyone at both locations, who've championed doing things differently and rethinking the status quo.

Sadly, increased costs and a challenging labour market is going to present difficulties in both mid-sized towns, with close proximity to London where higher wages are an attractor. In the case of High Wycombe, a few have spoken about the days of London Country's difficulties several decades ago - in a post-COVID world, spreading an already reduced pool of talented prospective employees across two mid-sized operators means that there's absolute sense for consolidation in a more concentrated market. Having worked for Go Ahead in the past, and seeing the achievements made in Bournemouth, the town's bus network and its customers will be in safe hands despite this not being the desired outcome if the proposals do come to fruition. The £2.5m+ figure quoted by Go Ahead into a refreshed fleet of 35 buses, and £4k new drivers' bonus clearly articulates the scale of investment required - naturally this'll be recouped through synergies in the mid/long term. Genuinely wish them the best and look forward to their seeing their energy, hard work and enthusiasm focus on ridership growth; I'll certainly visit to see the good work continue.

There's also the geographical issues in High Wycombe - every route leaving the town centre always has a steep incline to endure. This does put increased wear and tear on major units operating on a marginal network, where investment in new vehicles isn't going to be commercially viable - a problem shared by Carousel, a point to which Luke has spoken on. Where mid-life or fully depreciated vehicles have benefits to the balance sheet, the trade-off is in an older age profile with a requirement for more mechanical intervention - again, difficult where the skilled labour needed to sustain this is in a nationwide shortage.



Have no issue with targeting some of the above criticism at me personally, there's full entitlement to do that and convey your view, but to correct some assumptions that have been stated before on this forum:
  • To achieve growth in patronage, it must be promoted effectively. The leaflets and campaign costs were relatively inexpensive and the take-up was huge; we had several compliments from customers and industry commentators on reinstating this long-lost publicity medium. Some of the growth we experienced was directly attributed to an increase of visibility across a wider demographic for where the network serves.
  • There were no service cuts in September 2023. In High Wycombe, all but one route saw a maintenance of frequency (with punctuality improvements) or an enhancement, all within the same resources. Following the January changes at High Wycombe and the Aylesbury re-write, we introduced and refined:
    • Doubling of frequency to Penn
    • 50% increase of buses per hour to Downley, including double the number of buses on Sundays.
    • 50% increase of buses per hour to Booker
    • 50% increase of buses per hour to Micklefield
    • Doubling of buses on Sundays to Bourne End
    • Aylesbury's changes in January 2024 was reshaping the network around interurban connectivity, but we also doubled the buses from Aylesbury to Oxford on Sundays
  • High Wycombe is not run from Leicester. The Leicester Head Office is, unsurprisingly, the home to some centralised functions, an operating model that is shared by the other major big groups.
  • You'll be pleased to know that the Network Manager was looking at data from a computer less than 1 mile away. Yes, commercial teams do need to be visible, experience the nuances of their respective patches, speak to customers and drivers which was plentiful at the time of rethinking High Wycombe's network and as part of the cyclical review of performance - but there's also some work around data and the significant amount of efforts in implementing/mobilising to complete.
  • The repaint programme has no relation to the depot footprint.
There are plenty of learnings that have come from the respective Buckinghamshire network reviews - the principles employed in both towns worked in terms of boosting ridership and promoting connectivity. Some routes went beyond our expectation and others where feedback from customers were vital in implementing further refinements that led to their success. Others may have a different perspective or experience, and certainly acknowledge some of the service delivery challenges which had its impact in delivering the network benefits introduced.

It's not the absolute end of Arriva's involvement in Buckinghamshire, and look forward to seeing how things pan out in the future.

Thank you for your reply; I read through it and appreciated your insight as always even if I do come across as critical, it’s not very often you get the chance to have dialogue with someone in the know so to speak.

I just think a trick has been missed here and I know Carousel will make a success story out of Wycombe (having the lion’s share does help) so why can’t Arriva.

The hills cause increased wear and tear on the buses as we know but running four pot Optares on these routes isn’t the wisest thing in my opinion, they’re just not suited for Wycombe. Great if you can keep them on a route such as the 7 or or 12 which are flat, but the problem is each route interworks with another meaning, which is good because it means cuts down on resources needed but makes it hard to allocate the correct buses to the correct route. For example 2979 is awful bus, climbs hills at 5mph but it’s decent on the flats. If it runs on the 12 all day then there’s no problem. However as soon as it changes to a Route 2 to Booker it becomes problematic.

Also why did 5461 get repainted? I can’t imagine it was for an enchantment programme at Aylesbury?

I would love Arriva to stay and fix their act up but it seems to be a basket case and unless in the future if they were to purchase the Red Group of companies based in Aylesbury unfortunately I don’t see them ever breaking into Bucks (excluding Milton Keynes) again apart from the X4, X5 and X6.
 
Last edited:

cnjb8

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2019
Messages
2,160
Location
Nottingham
I’m


Arriva in London have 9 Wrightbus Streetdecks, Streetlites, DB300s and Trident Enviros in storage across various garages. There is one Streetdeck which in a state of disrepair but the others are fine.



Thank you for your reply; I read through it and appreciated your insight as always even if I do come across as critical, it’s not very often you get the chance to have dialogue with someone in the know so to speak.

I just think a trick has been missed here and I know Carousel will make a success story out of Wycombe (having the lion’s share does help) so why can’t Arriva.

The hills cause increased wear and tear on the buses as we know but running four pot Optares on these routes isn’t the wisest thing in my opinion, they’re just not suited for Wycombe. Great if you can keep them on a route such as the 7 or or 12 which are flat, but the problem is each route interworks with another meaning, which is good because it means cuts down on resources needed but makes it hard to allocate the correct buses to the correct route. For example 2979 is awful bus, climbs hills at 5mph but it’s decent on the flats. If it runs on the 12 all day then there’s no problem. However as soon as it changes to a Route 2 to Booker it becomes problematic.

Also why did 5461 get repainted? I can’t imagine it was for an enchantment programme at Aylesbury?

I would love Arriva to stay and fix their act up but it seems to be a basket case and unless in the future if they were to purchase the Red Group of companies based in Aylesbury unfortunately I don’t see them ever breaking into Bucks (excluding Milton Keynes) again apart from the X4, X5 and X6.
While Arriva London may have a surplus of buses they could have used in Wycombe and Aylesbury, in reality there is a process that takes time when transferring buses out of London ops to regional ops (e.g. removing middle door, removing manual blinds). Plus Arriva may be reluctant to transfer full height DDs to their regional ops as it reduces the routes they can be used on, hence why Arriva purchase low height DDs for their non-London operations
 

A0wen

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,565
I just think a trick has been missed here and I know Carousel will make a success story out of Wycombe (having the lion’s share does help) so why can’t Arriva.

I wish there was a way to pin this post and review it in 5 years time, because my hunch is little will have changed.

Carousel will probably still be running hand me down vehicles, the issues of finding drivers in the local area will still apply and financially the operation will be struggling. Given how many other operators have tried and failed to make Wycombe work, I don't understand why you think Carousel will be any different.
 

Voyager 2953

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While Arriva London may have a surplus of buses they could have used in Wycombe and Aylesbury, in reality there is a process that takes time when transferring buses out of London ops to regional ops (e.g. removing middle door, removing manual blinds). Plus Arriva may be reluctant to transfer full height DDs to their regional ops as it reduces the routes they can be used on, hence why Arriva purchase low height DDs for their non-London operations

Understood and I do understand the process involved and associated costs however in the case of Wycombe and Aylesbury full height London vehicles have been used across both depots at different times. Some even retaining centre doors and London-style blinds.
 

hst43102

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While Arriva London may have a surplus of buses they could have used in Wycombe and Aylesbury, in reality there is a process that takes time when transferring buses out of London ops to regional ops (e.g. removing middle door, removing manual blinds). Plus Arriva may be reluctant to transfer full height DDs to their regional ops as it reduces the routes they can be used on, hence why Arriva purchase low height DDs for their non-London operations
Short-term preparation of ex-London vehicles shouldn't take too long. For recent examples see ex-London E200s at various Stagecoach companies (Bedford and Swindon being the ones familiar to me), a large fleet of ex-London DOE-class Olympuses spread across the Go-Ahead empire entering service in London spec but with specific roller blinds made for routes in Swindon, Southampton, Bournemouth, Isle of Wight, Oxford, East Anglia, and East Yorkshire.
 

cnjb8

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Short-term preparation of ex-London vehicles shouldn't take too long. For recent examples see ex-London E200s at various Stagecoach companies (Bedford and Swindon being the ones familiar to me), a large fleet of ex-London DOE-class Olympuses spread across the Go-Ahead empire entering service in London spec but with specific roller blinds made for routes in Swindon, Southampton, Bournemouth, Isle of Wight, Oxford, East Anglia, and East Yorkshire.
All the examples you listed are not from Arriva though, and as described above it seems poor management would probably mean the speed of those buses entering service at Wycombe/Aylesbury would be slow
 

Voyager 2953

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I wish there was a way to pin this post and review it in 5 years time, because my hunch is little will have changed.

Carousel will probably still be running hand me down vehicles, the issues of finding drivers in the local area will still apply and financially the operation will be struggling. Given how many other operators have tried and failed to make Wycombe work, I don't understand why you think Carousel will be any different.

Go-Ahead to me seem like a progressive company willing to invest and that’s just what Wycombe needs. In the case of hand-me-downs; if the vehicles are maintained then I don’t see an issue. The ex London Mercs they have are in decent condition compared to the newer Arriva models which are quite shocking and it’s the same story all over the country.
 

lincman

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All the examples you listed are not from Arriva though, and as described above it seems poor management would probably mean the speed of those buses entering service at Wycombe/Aylesbury would be

Go-Ahead to me seem like a progressive company willing to invest and that’s just what Wycombe needs. In the case of hand-me-downs; if the vehicles are maintained then I don’t see an issue. The ex London Mercs they have are in decent condition compared to the newer Arriva models which are quite shocking and it’s the same story all over the country.
As I have said previously I regularly use Arriva Merseyside who's vehicles, staff and service are exemplorary, but this division makes a profit and there lies the difference.
 

A0wen

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Go-Ahead to me seem like a progressive company willing to invest and that’s just what Wycombe needs. In the case of hand-me-downs; if the vehicles are maintained then I don’t see an issue. The ex London Mercs they have are in decent condition compared to the newer Arriva models which are quite shocking and it’s the same story all over the country.

An interesting definition of "progressive" given it was Go Ahead who sold Oxford Bus Company's Wycombe Bus subsidiary to Arriva 20 years ago........
 

Robertj21a

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Go-Ahead to me seem like a progressive company willing to invest and that’s just what Wycombe needs. In the case of hand-me-downs; if the vehicles are maintained then I don’t see an issue. The ex London Mercs they have are in decent condition compared to the newer Arriva models which are quite shocking and it’s the same story all over the country.
Surely, this is a key point - a well thought of progressive company vs an operator currently being acquired by a new owner that, reportedly, has little interest in most of the provincial bus operations?
 

cnjb8

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An interesting definition of "progressive" given it was Go Ahead who sold Oxford Bus Company's Wycombe Bus subsidiary to Arriva 20 years ago........
That was two decades ago, GoAhead has become more innovative over time
 

Wolvercoter

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An interesting definition of "progressive" given it was Go Ahead who sold Oxford Bus Company's Wycombe Bus subsidiary to Arriva 20 years ago........
If I recall correctly, Oxford Bus disposed of Wycombe Bus due to the redevelopment of Newlands Bus Station and therefore would have needed to seek a new depot. At least, that's what I think was said.

Who would have thought it would have turned out like this!!
 

A0wen

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If I recall correctly, Oxford Bus disposed of Wycombe Bus due to the redevelopment of Newlands Bus Station and therefore would have needed to seek a new depot. At least, that's what I think was said.

Who would have thought it would have turned out like this!!

But if they thought there was potential - and let's be honest conditions were more favourable 20 years ago - then why abandon their operations?

Reality is Wycombe has not been "goid" territory for a long, long time. Whether it improves or this is another false dawn remains to be seen.

That was 20 years ago buddy..

See above. I suspect in a year or two's time there will be a thread on here about how poor the services are in Wycombe with clapped out vehicles a lack of interest and the inevitable cry of "poor management".
 

joieman

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While Arriva London may have a surplus of buses they could have used in Wycombe and Aylesbury, in reality there is a process that takes time when transferring buses out of London ops to regional ops (e.g. removing middle door, removing manual blinds). Plus Arriva may be reluctant to transfer full height DDs to their regional ops as it reduces the routes they can be used on, hence why Arriva purchase low height DDs for their non-London operations
There are a number of double-doored DB300s in use in Kent and also some E400s with dual doors with Arriva North West.
 

Parebunks

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There are a number of double-doored DB300s in use in Kent and also some E400s with dual doors with Arriva North West.
Even Oxford Bus as the direct neighbour to Carousel still has some dual door Citaros, although probably not for more than a month or two more now, with the new electrics.
 
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4699 Based at Bootle, formerly T55

Admittedly this is off topic but I’d argue this one isn’t worth a mention. Primarily a Rail Replacement and driver training bus, has rarely if ever seen use on normal services.

Suggestions have been made time and time again that Arriva should cascade more buses from London which I would agree with, but I can only assume the cost of converting them to single door is outweighed by keeping existing vehicles longer. So far the VDL DB300s at Tunbridge are the only exception in recent times, seemingly prompted by local management favouring those vehicles over alternatives.
 

Voyager 2953

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Admittedly this is off topic but I’d argue this one isn’t worth a mention. Primarily a Rail Replacement and driver training bus, has rarely if ever seen use on normal services.

Suggestions have been made time and time again that Arriva should cascade more buses from London which I would agree with, but I can only assume the cost of converting them to single door is outweighed by keeping existing vehicles longer. So far the VDL DB300s at Tunbridge are the only exception in recent times, seemingly prompted by local management favouring those vehicles over alternatives.

Indeed; and involved a lot of convincing in order to get the DB300s over to TW*. Very reliable and efficient buses they are. They literally don’t drink any diesel and breakdowns are few and far between.
 

greenline712

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Admittedly this is off topic but I’d argue this one isn’t worth a mention. Primarily a Rail Replacement and driver training bus, has rarely if ever seen use on normal services.

Suggestions have been made time and time again that Arriva should cascade more buses from London which I would agree with, but I can only assume the cost of converting them to single door is outweighed by keeping existing vehicles longer. So far the VDL DB300s at Tunbridge are the only exception in recent times, seemingly prompted by local management favouring those vehicles over alternatives.
London buses have the ramp at the centre doors.
Removing the centre door is relatively easy, but moving the ramp to the front door can sometimes be problematic ... it's all to do with the strength of the underlying structure.
Remember that the stairs open towards the centre door space, and ensuring that a standard wheelchair will fit along the gangway all have to be considered.
Nothing is impossible, but for a 12 year old bus may be excessively expensive.
 

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