ASLEF - LNER drivers to strike every Sat & Sun for 3 months from 31 Aug - Now called off

[Bald Rick]

If there is no agreement for managers to drive trains, then managers working trains is also yet another example of the company not adhering to agreements.

You don’t need an agreement for (fully competent) driver managers to drive trains.

Presumably the gripe by Aslef is actually that they previously had it in writing that managers with driving competency wouldn't "act down", but this quid pro quo has been dissolved?

I dont know for sure, but my understanding is that this is not the case.


As others have said, the timing is extraordinary. A huge gamble by ASLEF, both for putting this on the Secretary of State‘s desk today, and with their LNER membership.

 

[Class83]

When there is an overtime ban organized by the drivers union do you think in "any other industry" it would go down well that driver mangers (who are not in the union) can come in and work RDW for a basically bribery level bungs to get around the drivers not working overtime, even the ones that would happily do so? Do you think folks would just sit back? No they would be furious and rightly so.

As far as my TOC goes driver mangers can drive trains only with their trainee or another manager for training purposes only. They cannot be given a docket and sent off to work, so if that is the case at LNER there is another agreement being broken.

The drivers issue seems to be that they don't want to be compelled to work overtime, of itself perfectly reasonable, LNER should be required to recruit drivers to staff the rota, or else reduce the number of trains operated until the available staffing achieves this. If LNER is not recruiting drivers to achieve this they should set out a plan to do so ASAP.

But the complaint that managers are being paid overtime rates to work overtime is bizarre, if the staff drivers did the overtime the company wouldn't be paying a higher rate to the managers.

Haigh needs to explain to the head of HR at LNER and the senior ASLEF rep there, that they're going to be sitting in a room sorting out whatever is going on here and neither are leaving until it's sorted, and it looks like it's going to be a nice weekend so get on with it.

 

[bleeder4]

As expected, they're all jumping on the bandwagon. This is precisely why the previous government was correct to ignore them. Once you agree a deal with one union, all the others jump in wanting the same deal!

 

[dk1]

So when everyone was celebrating that the strikes were over in the pay deal thread, in reality the unions will just find other issues to strike about?

Are we likely to see the unions go around the TOCs one by one finding disagreements to strike over?

That really isn’t the case. This particular dispute with LNER has been ongoing for quite some time now. Management seem to have their fingers on the self destruct button for some very strange reason. Not sure what’s behind it but they are showing themselves to be as rotten as TPE and Avanti where until a few months ago.

 

[yorksrob]

it's costly and ineffective and the way it handles the general public (who pay for most of their salaries) is contemptible

It enabled me to get from Leeds to the lake district comfortably within a couple of hours this afternoon. How is that ineffective ?

 

[Starmill]

They cannot be given a docket and sent off to work, so if that is the case at LNER there is another agreement being broken.

Just because your TOC has a provision in place doesn't mean LNER do.

Yes I do think that it's time for Mr Horne to move on personally. But I fear that he might be moved onto somewhere within GBR where he can do even more damage...

We do seem to have a real culture of repeated failures resulting in promotion at senior levels of public life these days.

 

[baza585]

That really isn’t the case. This particular dispute with LNER has been ongoing for quite some time now. Management seem to have their fingers on the self destruct button for some very strange reason. Not sure what’s behind it but they are showing themselves to be as rotten as TPE and Avanti where until a few months ago.

Given the management of LNER is OLR, why would they not be doing the SoS's bidding?

The optics of this are awful for her and ASLEF's timing is very curious. Magnifies the impression I already had that she is way out of her depth.

 

[Chrius56000]

. . It very nearly happened with the Serpell Report – if that had been taken to it's ultimate conclusion there would only have been the WCML from Euston–Glasgow, Kings Cross–Edinburgh on the ECML, Paddington–Bristol–Cardiff on the GWML and very little else – how many Members would ASLEF and the RMT would have had left if the Serpell Report's proposals had been taken to their ultimate conclusions?

. . .The NUM tried to take on Margaret Thatcher and look where that got them – it probably won't be in my lifetime but if ASLEF don't get their act together and settle all these disputes, a future government administration may legislate to make transport strikes unlawful, which would virtually be the end of ASLEF as we know it!

. . .The 1955 strikes resulted in vast amounts of freight being permanently lost to the railway and possibly hastened the demise of many branch and secondary routes, and this was eight years before Beeching embarked on his destructive railway closure esplanade!

. . .I don't and have never worked on the railway but I do use them for long distance leisure travel a number of times a year and I am fed up to the back teeth of looking at calendars to plan future travel wondering if they'll be on strike or not!

Chris Williams

 

[bengley]

As expected, they're all jumping on the bandwagon. This is precisely why the previous government was correct to ignore them. Once you agree a deal with one union, all the others jump in wanting the same deal!

Not at all. Check your facts. It's an existing dispute. This is nothing new. Simply an announcement of new strike dates.

 

[Starmill]

As others have said, the timing is extraordinary. A huge gamble by ASLEF, both for putting this on the Secretary of State‘s desk today, and with their LNER membership.

I'll be fascinated to see if Reeves and Starmer go for the jugular against the train drivers, or if that treatment is reserved for the parents of more than two children eligible to child benefit and asset-rich pensioners.

 

[357]

Be as furious as you like, but the moment you give up RDW is the moment you give up any right to complain that someone else is doing it.

Were LNER offering the same rates that they were paying managers to non-union members willing to do RDW?

 

[bengley]

Bold text and capitals...bravo. There's nothing hard to grasp at all


If you think the railway isn't archaic then you're part of the problem, it's costly and ineffective and the way it handles the general public in terms of disruption and service (whilst having the begging bowl out for the tax payer to stump up pay increases) is contemptible

The railway not being able to offer a good service is a management problem. Not an employee problem. Want enough staff to work trains without relying on overtime? Hire enough staff. That's how it works in every other industry seeing as you lot like harping on about how great other industries are...

Don't concern yourself about the formatting of my messages. It's the content which is important.

 

[jkkne]

It enabled me to get from Leeds to the lake district comfortably within a couple of hours this afternoon. How is that ineffective ?

I'm genuinely not sure of your point? It worked for you so its not inefficient in anything else it does?

What was the cost of the walk up fare? It took at best 2hr 30 (NR suggests its around 20-30 mins slower than car from say Leeds to Windermere)
Anyhoo - I shall refrain from going further OT to mods ire

 

[Starmill]

LNER should be required to recruit drivers to staff the rota, or else reduce the number of trains operated until the available staffing achieves this. If LNER is not recruiting drivers to achieve this they should set out a plan to do so ASAP.

How? They're already in overspend, they won't be allowed to add new recruitment above plan.

Their job is to use the budget they have to its best.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Given the management of LNER is OLR, why would they not be doing the SoS's bidding?

One problem might be that the SoS doing the bidding changed suddenly last month.
I imagine many rail managers find themselves in the same boat.
There's a new piper playing the tune (I just hope it isn't the union leaders).

 

[357]

Their job is to use the budget they have to its best.

By paying managers £500 a day bonuses to drive a train?

 

[bengley]

The way I see various arguments here about outdated working practices is that people consider drivers having a union and being able to stand up to protect their T&Cs an outdated working practice.

It's not, by the way, it's just that other industries take their staff for granted, bleed every last bit of energy out of them and most don't have a union or at least a good one which can help them when they need it.

If that's outdated, then I don't want to be in the modern world! Give me cheesy 80s hits and good employment rights any day of the week.

 

[baza585]

One problem might be that the SoS doing the bidding changed suddenly last month.
I imagine many rail managers find themselves in the same boat.
There's a new piper playing the tune (I just hope it isn't the union leaders).

Point taken, but if the SoS has given OLR some new bidding, this message does not seem to have reached ASLEF (or has fallen on deaf ears).

Either way she is struggling and the optics are awful for her. I'm a bit surprised Hendy hasn't been more visible.

 

[Topological]

By paying managers £500 a day bonuses to drive a train?

The problem as an outsider is that none of us know if that is good value or not. What is the value of a train running? The fare revenue? The saved delay repay? The other benefits that get heaped into a CBA for rail openings?

YES, one could argue that paying ASLEF members to drive the trains during overtime is cheaper and that therefore the value could be better, but the ASLEF members are not doing overtime.

The comparison may be with training other drivers to enable the timetable to be covered without overtime. However, that continually gets shown to be difficult to achieve by those who post on such matters.

As an outsider, this new dispute looks childish.

 

[island]

The way I see various arguments here about outdated working practices is that people consider drivers having a union and being able to stand up to protect their T&Cs an outdated working practice.

Strawman.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think Mr Horne's personal record of failure upon failure means the only option for him that's is to go now. Ultimately it doesn't matter what they business trading conditions were, if you're c-suite and this many years of failure comes up on your watch, it's your responsibility.

I genuinely don't understand how Mr Horne- a resounding failure at EMT and then at the controls when Virgin/Stagecoach trashed EastCoast's years of hard work- wasn't robustly ejected the day OLR took over. It's been interesting to watch VTEC/LNER from afar, seeing how staff morale has been driven right over the cliff.

As you and others have noted, the timing of this is ASLEF pointing out with a huge red neon sign that their beef isn't with pay and it isn't with the government, it is with a specific culture within LNER.

LNER seem to be adept at rubbing both their staff and passengers up the wrong way these days.

These days? The management have been doing it since the day they were appointed by Stagecoach.

If you think the railway isn't archaic then you're part of the problem, it's costly and ineffective

I wouldn't say it was particularly archaic. What it is is one of the last industries where the staff have sufficient power to stand up to management.

I know the right wing media love to bang on about how the railway is full of what they charmingly (and racistly) term "Spanish practices". Examples in the Telegraph today include "walking time between the break room and the train"- yes, that's so the driver doesn't lose ten minutes of his break walking to and from the break room- and "breaks getting reset if management speak to the driver". The latter is spun as "not being allowed to say hello" but, in reality, it's about ensuring the break is actually a break and not work time.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but my preference is for my train driver to be properly rested. The consequences of making a fatigue-related error are so potentially huge it shouldn't be any other way.

In this case, if LNER management are going outside of the usual mechanisms to try and badger staff into doing additional work then the union are entirely correct to push back on this. The mechanisms are there for a reason, to protect both management and staff and, even more importantly, to protect the safety of passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm genuinely not sure of your point? It worked for you so its not inefficient in anything else it does?

What was the cost of the walk up fare? It took at best 2hr 30 (NR suggests its around 20-30 mins slower than car from say Leeds to Windermere)
Anyhoo - I shall refrain from going further OT to mods ire

You made the very bold and sweeping statement that the railway is "ineffective". It may be inefficient in some things, but lots of us find it the best way to get around for a lot of journeys.

£19.65 since you asked. A pretty good, walk - on fare to my mind. The management at LNER want to do away with pretty good walk-on fares on their patch, so passengers and ASLEF have a mutual interest in confounding them.

In terms of effectiveness, I find the railway a lot more effective than some industries I use (O2, this means you).

 

[Topological]

The way I see various arguments here about outdated working practices is that people consider drivers having a union and being able to stand up to protect their T&Cs an outdated working practice.

It's not, by the way, it's just that other industries take their staff for granted, bleed every last bit of energy out of them and most don't have a union or at least a good one which can help them when they need it.

If that's outdated, then I don't want to be in the modern world! Give me cheesy 80s hits and good employment rights any day of the week.

Perhaps one day we will remember the railways with the same affection that we show to Spandau Ballet. I suppose preserved railways are the equivalent of the "reunion" tours.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think Mr Horne's personal record of failure upon failure means the only option for him that's is to go now. Ultimately it doesn't matter what they business trading conditions were, if you're c-suite and this many years of failure comes up on your watch, it's your responsibility.

Agreed.

Asking for extra-contractual work again and again, after being told no, isn't just the height of bad workplace manners, it may soon be made unlawful.

Definitely not on!

 

[yorksrob]

These days? The management have been doing it since the day they were appointed by Stagecoach.

They've gotten a lot worse for passengers recently.

 

[bengley]

They've gotten a lot worse for passengers recently.

Yep! Perhaps bringing in unpopular and expensive ticketing options and worrying too much about brand image are (some of) the issues!

 

[Starmill]

By paying managers £500 a day bonuses to drive a train?

If that's better value for money in the long run than recruiting and training a new permanent role then yes obviously. You'd do it in any line of business.

 

[yorksrob]

The way I see various arguments here about outdated working practices is that people consider drivers having a union and being able to stand up to protect their T&Cs an outdated working practice.

It's not, by the way, it's just that other industries take their staff for granted, bleed every last bit of energy out of them and most don't have a union or at least a good one which can help them when they need it.

If that's outdated, then I don't want to be in the modern world! Give me cheesy 80s hits and good employment rights any day of the week.

Also, its not good to have knackered railway staff.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wouldn't say it was particularly archaic. What it is is one of the last industries where the staff have sufficient power to stand up to management.

I know the right wing media love to bang on about how the railway is full of what they charmingly (and racistly) term "Spanish practices". Examples in the Telegraph today include "walking time between the break room and the train"- yes, that's so the driver doesn't lose ten minutes of his break walking to and from the break room- and "breaks getting reset if management speak to the driver". The latter is spun as "not being allowed to say hello" but, in reality, it's about ensuring the break is actually a break and not work time.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but my preference is for my train driver to be properly rested. The consequences of making a fatigue-related error are so potentially huge it shouldn't be any other way.

In this case, if LNER management are going outside of the usual mechanisms to try and badger staff into doing additional work then the union are entirely correct to push back on this. The mechanisms are there for a reason, to protect both management and staff and, even more importantly, to protect the safety of passengers.

Quite, strikes me (sorry) that having managers badgering staff to work overtime isn't exactly a healthy working situation. I'm fairly sure if managers were actually just occasionally asking for an actual favour we wouldn't be here. I rather suspect that at least some level of pressure tactics are being applied to drivers and, quite rightly, they've got fed up of it and telling their management to bog off and abide by the letter of the agreements in place.

 

[whoosh]

Assume this is linked to LNER's planned imposition of minimum service levels during previous strike action. Something ASLEF only got them to back down on by announcing additional strike dates at the time.

No, nothing to do with that.

As expected, they're all jumping on the bandwagon. This is precisely why the previous government was correct to ignore them. Once you agree a deal with one union, all the others jump in wanting the same deal!

What are you talking about?!
This is an existing ASLEF dispute. This is a separate dispute to pay (which was at many TOCs including LNER), which has seen a deal done with... ASLEF.

What are you talking about? What same deal?
There has been a deal done with ASLEF over pay (which includes LNER) and this is a separate dispute, also with ASLEF. It is a long running dispute which hasn't been resolved.
It also needs a resolution.
What bandwagon?!


I'm amazed you think not talking went well. Imagine the reliability and passenger numbers if talks in good faith had happened in the last two years.