ASLEF - LNER drivers to strike every Sat & Sun for 3 months from 31 Aug - Now called off

[DarloRich]

Louise Haigh will probably be at LNER's HQ ASAP to knock a few heads together to get this sorted.

followed quickly by a call to ASLEF with a very simple message to them both: Get this sorted out by close of play today or else.

Being asked for favours is an excuse for industrial action?! I would *love* to see them spend a week in an ordinary private sector job.

Really? you think that is why a vote would be taken for strike action?

 

[YorkshireBear]

followed quickly by a call to ASLEF with a very simple message to them both: Get this sorted out by close of play today or else.

I really hope this is what is happening. Certainly so far, much more hands on and directing, long may it continue.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Louise Haigh will probably be at LNER's HQ ASAP to knock a few heads together to get this sorted.

She just walks down the corridor* to speak to Robin Gisby, head of DOHL which runs LNER and the other 3 DfT-operated franchises on her behalf.
She's no doubt hopping mad that the deal she carefully engineered yesterday has turned into a PR disaster today.
Lord Hendy's view as rail minister would be interesting, too...

* they might not actually be in the same building, but DOHL, including LNER, is under her direct control.

 

[mpthomson]

Presumably that's intentional...

It's rather hubristic if it is. Wiser counsel might have persuaded them to wait for a while before announcing these strikes. The large majority of the public aren't going to be interested in whether they're justified or not.

 

[Starmill]

It's rather hubristic if it is. Wiser counsel might have persuaded them to wait for a while before announcing these strikes. The large majority of the public aren't going to be interested in whether they're justified or not.

Indeed. But the intended audience is the senior management at LNER, not the public. It's a very clear singling out of their negotiating team as bad actors.

She just walks down the corridor* to speak to Robin Gisby, head of DOHL which runs LNER and the other 3 DfT-operated franchises on her behalf.
She's no doubt hopping mad that the deal she carefully engineered yesterday has turned into a PR disaster today.
Lord Hendy's view as rail minister would be interesting, too...

* they might not actually be in the same building, but DOHL, including LNER, is under her direct control.

The problem is there are very limited options to generate improvement in a state corporation. Replacement of Horne would be time-consuming and potentially quite costly depending on what sort of leverage he has, and it's very uncertain when even if it would bring benefit. Nobody at OLR Holdings can face any penalties for poor train service delivery.

In no other industry does anyone need an "agreement" for managers to do work of a lower grade. If the managers are willing and able to do it, then it isn't anybody else's business. If the managers are not so willing or able, then that's a dispute between managers and their managers.

Presumably the gripe by Aslef is actually that they previously had it in writing that managers with driving competency wouldn't "act down", but this quid pro quo has been dissolved? I'd be interested to hear what they really want it for, and what they'd be prepared to give up in return. It doesn't sound terribly important either given how relatively few management staff are competent to drive LNER trains and routes. They're probably accustomed to being offered that for nothing by other TOCs and are annoyed they won't be getting it from LNER.

 

[sigma421]

Indeed. But the intended audience is the senior management at LNER, not the public. It's a very clear singling out of their negotiating team as bad actors.

I take the point, but another key audience for this is the government, from whom they will require goodwill to bang heads together/offer up money over the coming months and years. Undermining a decision that is already causing them some level of political pain and handing an obvious attack line to the opposition doesn't strike me as terribly wise.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Not to mention that ironically going on strike will mean managers are once again out driving trains, one of the very things they are complaining about!

It only takes one serious incident to put a stop to this practice.

I’ve seen it on other TOCs too; even heard of managers taking the ‘cover rate’, then getting drivers in RMT, who weren’t on strike, to cover the trains the manager was due to drive…

The whole thing is a farce.

 

[Geeves]

In no other industry does anyone need an "agreement" for managers to do work of a lower grade. If the managers are willing and able to do it, then it isn't anybody else's business. If the managers are not so willing or able, then that's a dispute between managers and their managers.

When there is an overtime ban organized by the drivers union do you think in "any other industry" it would go down well that driver mangers (who are not in the union) can come in and work RDW for a basically bribery level bungs to get around the drivers not working overtime, even the ones that would happily do so? Do you think folks would just sit back? No they would be furious and rightly so.

As far as my TOC goes driver mangers can drive trains only with their trainee or another manager for training purposes only. They cannot be given a docket and sent off to work, so if that is the case at LNER there is another agreement being broken.

 

[357]

What’s the objection to driver managers driving services?

I don’t think it’s ideal if they’re regularly relying on it, but you’d have thought they’d like it as it meant the managers knew what it was like driving trains and didn’t become detached from reality etc

If managers are appropriately trained to drive trains on the routes concerned I can't see any legitimate reason to strike over them doing so. If the ORR assesses that insufficient cover is available to drivers should an incident occur than surely ORR should be allowed to take the appropriate enforcement actions. If not I don't think it's then legitimate for ASLEF to strike if ORR decides their is no safety risk to try to overturn that decision.

If the managers are willing and able to do it, then it isn't anybody else's business.

All well and good until there is a nasty incident and a driver is stuck with a train for hours as nobody is available to take over.
All well and good until the staff that the manager is responsible have competency expiring because assessments haven't been done.
All well and good until drivers trying to move to another company have offers retracted because the manager hasn't had time to do licence paperwork/reference.
All well and good until drivers can't drive anymore as the manager didn't organise the three-yearly medicals for them.

The three of you support managers driving trains and that's fine, I don't have a problem with it in itself. However, do you want them ignoring the day job to go and play trains? Or worse, break Hidden and work fatigued because they are doing two peoples jobs?

For the record, I don't and haven't ever worked for LNER but all of the above have happened within the last 24 months.
At my previous TOC I have has assessments done and the manager put a previous date on it, I've been 1 day from my medical expiring, and when I finally got the chance to leave I was badgering them for 4 months to complete the paperwork to permit my new offer to be signed off.

 

[Andyh82]

What’s the objection to driver managers driving services?

I don’t think it’s ideal if they’re regularly relying on it, but you’d have thought they’d like it as it meant the managers knew what it was like driving trains and didn’t become detached from reality etc

I always find the language used in union press releases very over the top and dramatic, with their managers vs staff rhetoric

You could have a young driver who wants to further their career, so they become a manager. Suddenly they are management scum who are treat like the enemy by the salt of the earth hard working regular staff

I hope this is only what plays out in the press releases and not in real life. Suddenly the person can’t go to the pub anymore as they are ‘management’, they have to go to a different pub on a different day

 

[KM1991]

Time to remove the entire LNER legacy leadership - Many of whom still harbour the Tory dream of trying to destroy the railway.

New leadership is a must.

 

[OneOfThe48]

All well and good until there is a nasty incident and a driver is stuck with a train for hours as nobody is available to take over.
All well and good until the staff that the manager is responsible have competency expiring because assessments haven't been done.
All well and good until drivers trying to move to another company have offers retracted because the manager hasn't had time to do licence paperwork/reference.
All well and good until drivers can't drive anymore as the manager didn't organise the three-yearly medicals for them.

The three of you support managers driving trains and that's fine, I don't have a problem with it in itself. However, do you want them ignoring the day job to go and play trains? Or worse, break Hidden and work fatigued because they are doing two peoples jobs?

For the record, I don't and haven't ever worked for LNER but all of the above have happened within the last 24 months.
At my previous TOC I have has assessments done and the manager put a previous date on it, I've been 1 day from my medical expiring, and when I finally got the chance to leave I was badgering them for 4 months to complete the paperwork to permit my new offer to be signed off.

To me, it would make driver managers less detached from the people they manage as they would have a more recent memory and experience of the reality and challenges of the job

But clearly your mileage varies and that's fine

 

[jkkne]

Time to remove the entire LNER legacy leadership - Many of whom still harbour the Tory dream of trying to destroy the railway.

New leadership is a must.

I'd say the same about ASLEF. They've done just as much damage in the eyes of the travelling public.

Still it's great news for National Express and Flixbus (and their continuing growing profits) who for those without a car - are a far better and more reliable option for a leisure traveller

 

[357]

To me, it would make driver managers less detached from the people they manage as they would have a more recent memory and experience of the reality and challenges of the job

But clearly your milage varies and that's fine

At most TOCs driver managers have to do a certain amount of driving each month to keep current and their licence valid.

The issue at LNER (and elsewhere) is they are driving so much above and beyond that they aren't getting the day job done.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I think Mr Horne's personal record of failure upon failure means the only option for him that's is to go now. Ultimately it doesn't matter what they business trading conditions were, if you're c-suite and this many years of failure comes up on your watch, it's your responsibility.

I have been amazed by the adulation in the railway press for him. Long ago now, at the start of his career as E.M.T. M.D., he appeared on the T.V. news when Corby station opened and was asked to explain why, although the station was now opening with great publicity, there wasn't actually a train service (just one a day each way) there. He just blamed another operator for not releasing rolling stock in a very sullen 'the big boys won't let me have my ball back' way. Definitely nothing to do with him, can't expect the M.D. to have an action plan to cover possibilities.

 

[Geeves]

I always find the language used in union press releases very over the top and dramatic, with their managers vs staff rhetoric

You could have a young driver who wants to further their career, so they become a manager. Suddenly they are management scum who are treat like the enemy by the salt of the earth hard working regular staff

I hope this is only what plays out in the press releases and not in real life. Suddenly the person can’t go to the pub anymore as they are ‘management’, they have to go to a different pub on a different day

Andy as I said in my post I imagine what really sticks in the teeth of the regular driver is the fact the rates paid are so far in excess of any regular payment (against a backdrop of lost wages through strikes and no OT) that I don't think the union has any choice but to stand up to the backhanded tactics. I am sure there are DTMs would never drive what ever the money but there will always be some

 

[Mwanesh]

I'd say the same about ASLEF. They've done just as much damage in the eyes of the travelling public.

Still it's great news for National Express and Flixbus (and their continuing growing profits) who for those without a car - are a far better and more reliable option for a leisure traveller

Summed it up nicely am travelling during the strike days.I may as well stick to National Express.They may take longer at least i will get there.

 

[Thirteen]

In regards to ASLEF, isn't Mick Whelan retiring in a year or two? I assume they have a rough idea who'll replace him.

 

[bengley]

With all due respect to various posters on here saying things like 'this wouldn't be a problem in other industries' and 'ASLEF are the problem'...

The railway ISN'T another industry. It's the railway. This is how the railway works. If you don't like it, don't use it and stop getting yourselves so worked up about issues which you have no control over. This is never going to change - even 14 years of the tories and their anti-trade union nonsense didn't manage to make a dent in ASLEF's power.

ASLEF are there for one thing and one thing only, and that is to represent their members. Clearly none of us here have any idea about the industrial relations issues at LNER, unless we work for LNER - I have previously worked for a company which treated its staff with contempt and had numerous IR issues and it was a horrendous place to be at times.

The reason the railway is such a good place to work is because we can stand up for our rights and to protect our Terms and Conditions. Let's stop trying to take that away from our workforce, ta.

 

[ainsworth74]

I have been amazed by the adulation in the railway press for him. Long ago now, at the start of his career as E.M.T. M.D., he appeared on the T.V. news when Corby station opened and was asked to explain why, although the station was now opening with great publicity, there wasn't actually a train service (just one a day each way) there. He just blamed another operator for not releasing rolling stock in a very sullen 'the big boys won't let me have my ball back' way. Definitely nothing to do with him, can't expect the M.D. to have an action plan to cover possibilities.

Yes I do think that it's time for Mr Horne to move on personally. But I fear that he might be moved onto somewhere within GBR where he can do even more damage...

 

[matthenj]

With all due respect to various posters on here saying things like 'this wouldn't be a problem in other industries' and 'ASLEF are the problem'...

The railway ISN'T another industry. It's the railway. This is how the railway works. If you don't like it, don't use it and stop getting yourselves so worked up about issues which you have no control over. This is never going to change - even 14 years of the tories and their anti-trade union nonsense didn't manage to make a dent in ASLEF's power.

ASLEF are there for one thing and one thing only, and that is to represent their members. Clearly none of us here have any idea about the industrial relations issues at LNER, unless we work for LNER - I have previously worked for a company which treated its staff with contempt and had numerous IR issues and it was a horrendous place to be at times.

The reason the railway is such a good place to work is because we can stand up for our rights and to protect our Terms and Conditions. Let's stop trying to take that away from our workforce, ta.

The problem, as I see it, is sooner or later, the railway and it's workers will need support from those who do not work for it.

You might disagree - but at the end of the day, the railway exists to serve the nation, not to employ people on favourable terms.

Public perception matters - the more people perceive the railway as greedy, the less likely they'll be to speak out or refuse to vote for someone who doesn't see the benefits of the railway.

 

[yorksrob]

LNER seem to be adept at rubbing both their staff and passengers up the wrong way these days.

 

[jkkne]

With all due respect to various posters on here saying things like 'this wouldn't be a problem in other industries' and 'ASLEF are the problem'...

The railway ISN'T another industry. It's the railway. This is how the railway works. If you don't like it, don't use it and stop getting yourselves so worked up about issues which you have no control over. This is never going to change - even 14 years of the tories and their anti-trade union nonsense didn't manage to make a dent in ASLEF's power.

ASLEF are there for one thing and one thing only, and that is to represent their members. Clearly none of us here have any idea about the industrial relations issues at LNER, unless we work for LNER - I have previously worked for a company which treated its staff with contempt and had numerous IR issues and it was a horrendous place to be at times.

The reason the railway is such a good place to work is because we can stand up for our rights and to protect our Terms and Conditions. Let's stop trying to take that away from our workforce, ta.

Isn't that the problem? The archaic way the railway works (and not just in terms of union power) I wouldn't say people are worked up - apathy in most parts - the previous govt were able to do absolutely nothing to stop or negotiate with unions...the general public didn't care

The minority of people who do use the railway will stop using it - there are better options.

ASLEF and indeed the wider railway will at one point will be in an echo chamber while the rest of us get on with our lives as the latest unfolding drama on the rails is met with a mild shrug and life goes on via car, bus and air

 

[800001]

At most TOCs driver managers have to do a certain amount of driving each month to keep current and their licence valid.

The issue at LNER (and elsewhere) is they are driving so much above and beyond that they aren't getting the day job done.

I wonder when they actually do the day job!

 

[66701GBRF]

When there is an overtime ban organized by the drivers union do you think in "any other industry" it would go down well that driver mangers (who are not in the union) can come in and work RDW for a basically bribery level bungs to get around the drivers not working overtime, even the ones that would happily do so? Do you think folks would just sit back? No they would be furious and rightly so.

Be as furious as you like, but the moment you give up RDW is the moment you give up any right to complain that someone else is doing it.

 

[Horizon22]

I always find the language used in union press releases very over the top and dramatic, with their managers vs staff rhetoric

You could have a young driver who wants to further their career, so they become a manager. Suddenly they are management scum who are treat like the enemy by the salt of the earth hard working regular staff

I hope this is only what plays out in the press releases and not in real life. Suddenly the person can’t go to the pub anymore as they are ‘management’, they have to go to a different pub on a different day

Indeed. It’s more the rhetoric that drivers = lively hard-pressed community & driver managers = scum and waste of a salary that ASLEF seem okay to condone. Most companies in reality have a healthy & professional relationship between the two.

 

[bengley]

Isn't that the problem? The archaic way the railway works (and not just in terms of union power) I wouldn't say people are worked up - apathy in most parts - the previous govt were able to do absolutely nothing to stop or negotiate with unions...the general public didn't care

The minority of people who do use the railway will stop using it - there are better options.

ASLEF and indeed the wider railway will at one point will be in an echo chamber while the rest of us get on with our lives as the latest unfolding drama on the rails is met with a mild shrug and life goes on via car, bus and air

There's nothing archaic about the way the railway works.
Drivers come to work, drive their trains and go home.

The only difference to any other industry is that the union don't stand for crap and bullying or breaches of EMPLOYMENT TERMS AND CONDITIONS by managers. I don't see what you find so hard to grasp?

 

[chris.lambert.]

Q: Is the current/proposed ASLEF / LNER diagramming and roster agreement in the public domain somewhere?

 

[bengley]

Q: Is the current/proposed ASLEF / LNER diagramming and roster agreement in the public domain somewhere?

No, and it never will be.

 

[jkkne]

There's nothing archaic about the way the railway works.
Drivers come to work, drive their trains and go home.

The only difference to any other industry is that the union don't stand for crap and bullying or breaches of EMPLOYMENT TERMS AND CONDITIONS by managers. I don't see what you find so hard to grasp?

Bold text and capitals...bravo. There's nothing hard to grasp at all


If you think the railway isn't archaic then you're part of the problem, it's costly and ineffective and the way it handles the general public in terms of disruption and service (whilst having the begging bowl out for the tax payer to stump up pay increases) is contemptible