ATW/Keolis Amey Wales stock shortages

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by ATW158Xpress, 25 Jun 2018.

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  1. PaulHarding150

    PaulHarding150 Member

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    Am I correct in thinking that Northern's 142s have bus seats and the 144s have seat seats?

    How much training would a TfW driver and or guard need to undertake to use a 144 for the first time?
     
  2. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    A glance at Wikimedia Commons suggests that most if not all the 144s have "seat seats". 3 out of 4 of the Northern 142 interiors pictured are bench seats.
    Very little, I suspect. Perhaps a day for a conversion course from 142/143s? Maybe less.
     
  3. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

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    Not as much of a rumour now then! When will Northern start withdrawing 144s though...?
     
  4. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    The piece in RAIL magazine seemed to suggest Northern should start withdrawing 144s imminently as they've received 29 DMUs from Scotrail. Who knows why they haven't started yet
     
  5. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    Obviously plans were in progress but kept under wraps until finalised
     
  6. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    I think there still trying to keep wraps on it as its not a done deal yet. However given public utterances from TfW and a rather obvious answer given other variables/timescales what the solution was likely to be its not been too hard to guess!
     
  7. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    TfW should also apply for derogations for 143s and 144s, so that they are in place in case they can't PRM modify 35 x 150s in the next 11 months.
    It would be embarassing if 143s and 144s were still operating in Wales in the first few months of 2020 but even more embarassing would be cancelling services and running real buses due to the 150s not bring done in time.
    Even if TfW receieved enough Pacers to withdraw the entire 150 fleet at once, we know there's not enough workshop capacity available to condense the PRM work into just a few months on the whole fleet.
     
  8. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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  9. tomos dafis

    tomos dafis Member

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    So it seems Northern want to hang on to their Pacers for a few months at least to solve their own problems of short formations/cancellations. I would suggest that the 144's might then be the last to depart and even if TFW can appeal for just a few units to be released to them earlier than "Spring" ("Spring" suggests to me May timetable change) they would be 142's? Quite reasonably, Northern want to solve their own rolling stock shortage in the immediate term before helping TFW with theirs.
     
  10. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    It's not looking good for TfW. Mainline testing on 769s hasn't started yet either, and when 769s are talked about by TfW they only ever mention 5 x 769s, not 9, which was reported to be the number TfW had ordered by some industry magazines before Christmas.
    If TfW don't get any 144s due to Northern keeping hold of them, do TfW have any options left to boost the fleet to allow for 150/2 PRM mods?
    It's looking pretty grim. All to meet an arbitrary deadline on trains that will be gone in just over 4 years time.
     
  11. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    Especially if Northern get their 769s first. I understand they are the first in the queue
     
  12. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    I don't understand how Northern can be so short of trains when they've just had a cascade of 29 DMUs from Scotrail. Do they only operate half of their fleet in service every day or something?
    And what about GWRs 143s, when are they being released?
     
  13. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    They have the withdrawal of Pacer issue as well.
     
  14. Parallel

    Parallel Established Member

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    AFAIK not enough Turbos released yet following delayed electrification work. GWR originally gave 2017 for the release of Pacers on Twitter. They were all given a refresh recently. Wouldn’t surprise me if they lasted to October/November 2019...
     
  15. Eccles1983

    Eccles1983 On Moderation

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    Northern has the same problem as TfW just multiplied.

    It has the bulk of its fleet as 14x. Everything else needs to disappear for PRM mods.

    The electrics don't cover enough routes to cover. Most services are short formed on Northern as they are sending stuff away each month. It's taking 3-6 months dependant on corrosion issues and Wabtec being useless.
     
  16. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    It wouldn't surprise me if TfW ended up scooping up all of Northern's 144s and GWRs 143s, along with keeping their own 143s and running the Valleys as Pacer only on derogations in the first 6 months of 2020 whilst the 150 fleet is away for mods.
    I just don't see how TfW can realistically meet the 31/12/2019 deadline on its 150/2s without cover. Passengers are angry at the lack of peak time and Saturday capacity now. Start sending 150s away for PRM mods on mass without cover in the next few months and you have another PR disaster on the scale we had in the autumn.

    The problem is the DfT are obviously not paying attention to the looming crisis not just in Wales but on all operators that rely on BR era DMUs and HSTs for meeting 1/1/2020. They are too busy organising fake traffic jams and awarding shipping contracts to ferry companies that don't have any ships.
     
  17. tomos dafis

    tomos dafis Member

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    It certainly is looking bleak for TFW for 2020. If derogations are granted on their existing pacers and any acquired from Northern/GWR, TFW will stand out as the only TOC still operating pacers, having failed to deliver on the promise to remove them totally by the end of 2019.
     
  18. Parallel

    Parallel Established Member

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    Not forgetting the current farce between Shrewsbury and Birmingham where there have been an extremely high number of shortforms, which has led to gross overcrowding, frequent disorder, communication alarms being pulled and the police attending on a regular basis. At this point, I’m not sure TfW can come back from the current shambles on their network, even though it’s not really their fault. (Arriva pulling out from the bidding spoke volumes, they knew what they would be letting themselves in for - Must’ve sent out a strong message to the WG...)
     
  19. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    And that's just from sending the 158s away for mods. Once the 150s start going in significant numbers things really will deteriorate quickly. I think it's pretty clear that the PRM deadline for EMT and TfW needs to be put back by at least 12 months. If it can't be put back for one or two operators it needs to be put back for the whole industry.
     
    Last edited: 18 Jan 2019
  20. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    The extra WMT services are in RTT for May between SHR and New St so should take pressure off in 4 months time!
     
  21. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

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    I've just heard that more 150s have been PRM modified since 285. I haven't even seen any photos of 285 in modified form - can anyone point me in the right direction...?
     
  22. 158820

    158820 Member

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    There are some on the wnxx subscription news site.

    I can only find 1 Flickr
     
  23. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

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    Delete
     
  24. 6Gtraincrew

    6Gtraincrew Member

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    I think 284 was being done at the same time, but as far as I know it hasn't come out yet.
     
  25. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

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    Thanks :)

    Here's a photo of inside 285 I've just been sent, posted with permission!

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: 21 Jan 2019
  26. Cambrian359

    Cambrian359 Member

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    Are they getting a full refurbishment with PRM mods or just PRM mods?
     
  27. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    All ATW 150/2s were internally refreshed with new seat covers and fillings, with some getting new flooring and panelling in ATW's last 2 years, WiFi was fitted as well.
    Plug sockets are also being fitted during the PRM mods.

    If that's the size of the toilet though, there's no way the 153s can get the PRM toilet, it swallows up too many seats. From Jan 2020 I can't see how the 153s can be used for anything other than strengthening, unless they run around with no toilets.
     
    Last edited: 21 Jan 2019
  28. Parallel

    Parallel Established Member

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    Most have been ‘refreshed’ previously but I’d imagine it’s not a full refurbishment as it’d take extra away time for the units.

    Looks smart though, the PIS and toilet module are the same as is used on the refurbished GWR units.
     
  29. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

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    More photos have been requested :)
     
  30. Paul_10

    Paul_10 Member

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    Not really as the pacers being cascaded will be Heatons pacers and it would seem to suggest the far NE will be(virtually?) pacer free once the 158s fully enter service.

    As it happens from looking at the pacer group on facebook, many heaton pacers are already appearing on North West diagrams more frequently these days in anycase but we see once they all come along whether it will help with any overcrowding.

    As for Wales then it does look bleak but common sence must be applied even if the deadline is not met. I very much doubt Northern will have all there units PRM by then either and the new trains and the 769s are not guranteed to go to plan as often is the case with railway projects so its going to be interesting what will happen.
     
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