ATW/Keolis Amey Wales stock shortages

[Cardiff123]

Well if you’re going off the info I post you can be assured it’s reliwble no as up to date as possible as I’m involved in the planning of it!

HSTs would be fuelled at a Canton every day so would only need a short supply at night at Holyhead. HSTs are not a preferred option due to the amount of training required as additional train crew depots would need to be involved. The bigger probablility would be receiving 170s from Anglia earlier (summer) to cascade 150s off South Wales Mainline work to speed up PRM and WSP fitment. There will also be 8 x 142s moving from northern to TfW however this is dependant on Class 195 introduction which is being delayed further.

The 5 class 153s received from GWR will likely be kept in S Wales (Cardiff Bay and Cheltenham - Maesteg) as they have different lower power engines than the existing fleet which were fitted with updated engines back about 8 years ago (they’re about 80hp better)

Thanks for the info, but don't risk your job over it.
Let's hope that if those 8 x 142s do make it to the Valleys from Northern that they are not ex-Merseytravel 142s, which are an abomination.

 

[anamyd]

Well if you’re going off the info I post you can be assured it’s reliwble no as up to date as possible as I’m involved in the planning of it!

HSTs would be fuelled at a Canton every day so would only need a short supply at night at Holyhead. HSTs are not a preferred option due to the amount of training required as additional train crew depots would need to be involved. The bigger probablility would be receiving 170s from Anglia earlier (summer) to cascade 150s off South Wales Mainline work to speed up PRM and WSP fitment. There will also be 8 x 142s moving from northern to TfW however this is dependant on Class 195 introduction which is being delayed further.

The 5 class 153s received from GWR will likely be kept in S Wales (Cardiff Bay and Cheltenham - Maesteg) as they have different lower power engines than the existing fleet which were fitted with updated engines back about 8 years ago (they’re about 80hp better)

Lots of interesting information in this post! Can we be clear on why the HSTs are needed...? Recieving 170s from Anglia in the summer I take it will be on an "as they become available" basis, as in when each 170 is replaced by a 755, it's sent to TfW...? So the PRM modified units are currently:

158-818/819/822/823/826/829/830/831/835/836/839/840, and 150-253/284/285...? have any other 150s been PRM'd...? Like 257/217/a few others...? And what's the deal with 153s and PRM mods as none have received any yet to my knowledge...?

Has WSP fitment started on 150s...? I'd like to see those 8x 142s from Northern! Very interesting read about the 153s - so the 8x ex-ATW ones were re-engined with 350hp Cummins NTA855R1 engines I'm assuming...? (or have had R1 turbos fitted to R5 engines as I've read) while the 5x ex-GWR ones have the original spec 285hp Cummins NTA855R5 engines...? I wonder how much difference it actually makes though because I heard the ex-ATW 153s are still underpowered with the extra weight added by the doubled up cabs and systems etc

also - what's the exact situation with the 769...? has it been out or not...? has it been "bashing into platforms" or not...? does it need a small modification for the class to be cleared on the main valley lines, and if so how was that worked out...? (if you know, of course!)

 

[strettonarms96]

So in terms of rolling stock for the Marches, do we foresee any changes in the near future?

 

[krus_aragon]

So in terms of rolling stock for the Marches, do we foresee any changes in the near future?

We foresee the introduction of Mark IV-based rakes on three daily Cardiff-Holyhead services (each way) from December, as announced at the start of the franchise.

The rumoured short-term introduction of HSTs (for the second half of this year) would take over another two Cardiff-Holyhead services (each way) and some other diagrams in North Wales, releasing 175s to cover PRM mods to the rest of the fleet.

So on the Marches, one would expect the Manchester services to remain 175-operated, but for most of the Holyhead services to switch to MkIV or HST operation.

 

[craigybagel]

Well if you’re going off the info I post you can be assured it’s reliwble no as up to date as possible as I’m involved in the planning of it!

HSTs would be fuelled at a Canton every day so would only need a short supply at night at Holyhead. HSTs are not a preferred option due to the amount of training required as additional train crew depots would need to be involved. The bigger probablility would be receiving 170s from Anglia earlier (summer) to cascade 150s off South Wales Mainline work to speed up PRM and WSP fitment. There will also be 8 x 142s moving from northern to TfW however this is dependant on Class 195 introduction which is being delayed further.

The 5 class 153s received from GWR will likely be kept in S Wales (Cardiff Bay and Cheltenham - Maesteg) as they have different lower power engines than the existing fleet which were fitted with updated engines back about 8 years ago (they’re about 80hp better)

If our 153s are more powerful, I hate to think what the normal ones are like! One unit (153320) did have a more powerful engine fitted a few years ago but it's the same as the rest of the fleet now - painfully sluggish! You notice it when you work a 150 on 153 timings - you end up waiting time a lot. This makes me struggle to believe that the northern timetables are somehow more tight.

Given the delays with the new fleets at Anglia and Northern I'd say it would be a miracle to get any of their units any time soon - but then this is the railway and stranger things have happened.

 

[158srule]

Lots of interesting information in this post! Can we be clear on why the HSTs are needed...? Recieving 170s from Anglia in the summer I take it will be on an "as they become available" basis, as in when each 170 is replaced by a 755, it's sent to TfW...? So the PRM modified units are currently:

158-818/819/822/823/826/829/830/831/835/836/839/840, and 150-253/284/285...? have any other 150s been PRM'd...? Like 257/217/a few others...? And what's the deal with 153s and PRM mods as none have received any yet to my knowledge...?

Has WSP fitment started on 150s...? I'd like to see those 8x 142s from Northern! Very interesting read about the 153s - so the 8x ex-ATW ones were re-engined with 350hp Cummins NTA855R1 engines I'm assuming...? (or have had R1 turbos fitted to R5 engines as I've read) while the 5x ex-GWR ones have the original spec 285hp Cummins NTA855R5 engines...? I wonder how much difference it actually makes though because I heard the ex-ATW 153s are still underpowered with the extra weight added by the doubled up cabs and systems etc

also - what's the exact situation with the 769...? has it been out or not...? has it been "bashing into platforms" or not...? does it need a small modification for the class to be cleared on the main valley lines, and if so how was that worked out...? (if you know, of course!)

The 769 has not turned a wheel other than being split / reformed on depot and will not do so for some time yet.

 

[anamyd]

The 769 has not turned a wheel other than being split / reformed on depot and will not do so for some time yet.

thanks for the response

 

[Brissle Girl]

TfW must have very low density Class 150s if 220 seats is equivalent to two of them.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Staff training aside, HSTs operated to and from Holyhead on a daily basis until 15 years ago (see http://www.penmorfa.com/Archive/eighteen.htm) but I don't think any of the 3 trains per day stabled at Holyhead.

Wasn't it 2 HSTs stabled at Holyhead and 1 in London?
All serviced at Old Oak as part of the Western fleet.
I'm not sure HSTs have ever worked Chester-Hereford on a regular basis (Hereford-Newport was used until recently for Cotswold services).

It all seems like panic stations to me, with some high costs involved (and service contracts with other TOCs).
Scotrail had several years to plan for HSTs, and it still didn't work out as planned.

 

[ainsworth74]

Please note, discussion in this thread has been split into two new threads detailed below:

• A thread to discuss the introduction of Class 37s and Mk2s on the Rhymney Line can be found here.
• A thread to discuss the possible introduction of HSTs on the Cardiff to Holyhead route can be found here.

A number of posts have been moved from this thread to the new threads, however, it has not been possible to be quite as neat as I'd like and some posts are still in this thread that refer to HSTs and/or Class 37s. If you wish to reply to a post on this thread please do so in the appropriate new thread linked above. Any posts on this thread relating to the introduction of Class 37s or the possible introduction of HSTs are liable for deletion as being off-topic.

Thanks,
ainsworth74

 

[PHILIPE]

150236 is at Crewe for PRM Mods

 

[anamyd]

150236 is at Crewe for PRM Mods

thanks for the info!

 

[anamyd]

The bigger probablility would be receiving 170s from Anglia earlier (summer) to cascade 150s off South Wales Mainline work to speed up PRM and WSP fitment.

So have any of the 150s been fitted with WSP yet then...?

 

[PHILIPE]

150230 returned from Wolverton to Canton yesterday after body repairs following an unsuccessful attempt to swim through Penrhiwceiber a few months ago. I don't know if any other work, such as PRM Mods, was carried out or not as this can depend on contracts as to by who and where the work is done.

 

[Jez]

This will see 175s operating the new Chester - Liverpool service displacing the 150/2s back in to South Wales onto the current 158 diagrams that operate in West Wales and on the Cheltenham - Maesteg services.

As for the ‘new’ 153s thy will not be in traffic until at least early May

Does this mean the 3 158 booked for West Wales/Maesteg/Cheltenham/Ebbw Vale etc will be replaced by 150s and if so this means the Fishguard daytime boat train will be a 150? Where will the 3 158 currently used in South Wales go? Any news on the ex great western 153s? Will they be used to strengthen services in Cardiff area like Ebbw Vale etc

 

[Ted172]

Any news on the ex great western 153s? Will they be used to strengthen services in Cardiff area like Ebbw Vale etc

They will not be in traffic until May. As written above by @Jez

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Do we know which routes the 170s will initially operate? I've seen Ebbw Vale mentioned, any chance they'll be a regular on Cheltenham services?

 

[PHILIPE]

Does this mean the 3 158 booked for West Wales/Maesteg/Cheltenham/Ebbw Vale etc will be replaced by 150s and if so this means the Fishguard daytime boat train will be a 150? Where will the 3 158 currently used in South Wales go? Any news on the ex great western 153s? Will they be used to strengthen services in Cardiff area like Ebbw Vale etc

The Fishguard is still running in 90mph timings so is 2017 Cardiff to Manchester.from May. If 175s are going to work the new Liverpool services as has been suggested, it means 1 will have to be coupled to Wrexham with a Bidston 150 in the morning. I think not. TFW via Twitter say will be 150s in response to queries. Perhaps 158s rule could come back on this one please

 

[PaulHarding150]

They will not be in traffic until May. As written above by @Jez

Well May starts on Wednesday and the new timetable starts three weeks today.

 

[PHILIPE]

Do we know which routes the 170s will initially operate? I've seen Ebbw Vale mentioned, any chance they'll be a regular on Cheltenham services?

170s initially in late 2019 on Ebbw Vale/Maesteg/Cheltenham routes. When the remainder follow at the end of the year (?) West Wales and Heart of Wales lines

 

[PHILIPE]

Well May starts on Wednesday and the new timetable starts three weeks today.

People refer loosely to the May Timetable so that's how "From May" becomes the language

 

[craigybagel]

The Fishguard is still running in 90mph timings so is 2017 Cardiff to Manchester.from May. If 175s are going to work the new Liverpool services as has been suggested, it means 1 will have to be coupled to Wrexham with a Bidston 150 in the morning. I think not. TFW via Twitter say will be 150s in response to queries. Perhaps 158s rule could come back on this one please

Assuming he's anything more then a well informed enthusiast, which I still doubt....

In any case, as you yourself are no doubt aware but other members may not be, 175s and 150s can't couple so no that's clearly going to be a non starter. That said, the suggestion was 175s to Liverpool freed up by HSTs, and the talk within TfW now seems to be that HST's aren't coming after all. There is a simpler alternative being looked at.

170s initially in late 2019 on Ebbw Vale/Maesteg/Cheltenham routes. When the remainder follow at the end of the year (?) West Wales and Heart of Wales lines

Heart of Wales isn't meant to be until 2022, after the 170s get displaced from their temporary south east Wales home by the arrival of the Stadler DMUs.

 

[PHILIPE]

Assuming he's anything more then a well informed enthusiast, which I still doubt....

In any case, as you yourself are no doubt aware but other members may not be, 175s and 150s can't couple so no that's clearly going to be a non starter. That said, the suggestion was 175s to Liverpool freed up by HSTs, and the talk within TfW now seems to be that HST's aren't coming after all. There is a simpler alternative being looked at.



Heart of Wales isn't meant to be until 2022, after the 170s get displaced from their temporary south east Wales home by the arrival of the Stadler DMUs.

It appears that the source of info appeared on the Forum at the beginning of April posted 8 posts all on the same thread and disappeared again 5 days later with no more activity

 

[Jez]

Perhaps once the May timetable change happens someone can post a list of diagrams for each traction tfw has so we know where we are (assuming we know definate information of course!) From what I've heard early next year we should have 170s on Ebbw Vale and Maesteg to Cheltenham. Possibly Pembroke Dock too. I assume to free up the 150s currently on the majority of these services so they can replace the pacers on valley lines and cardiff local services.

 

[PHILIPE]

Perhaps once the May timetable change happens someone can post a list of diagrams for each traction tfw has so we know where we are (assuming we know definate information of course!) From what I've heard early next year we should have 170s on Ebbw Vale and Maesteg to Cheltenham. Possibly Pembroke Dock too. I assume to free up the 150s currently on the majority of these services so they can replace the pacers on valley lines and cardiff local services.

I wouldn't hold your breath. Full lists of diagrams never appear on the Forum as the information is not in the public domain and if there is anybody who has access to them they have to confidentially watch what info they let out. Indivdiual queries would seem to be ok

 

[craigybagel]

It appears that the source of info appeared on the Forum at the beginning of April posted 8 posts all on the same thread and disappeared again 5 days later with no more activity

Indeed, it all seems very suspect.

Perhaps once the May timetable change happens someone can post a list of diagrams for each traction tfw has so we know where we are (assuming we know definate information of course!) From what I've heard early next year we should have 170s on Ebbw Vale and Maesteg to Cheltenham. Possibly Pembroke Dock too. I assume to free up the 150s currently on the majority of these services so they can replace the pacers on valley lines and cardiff local services.

I believe the plan is something along those lines, but there are a few variables that may change things. We've already seen some changes from the original plans after all, such as the reintroduction of 37s to Rhymney and the possibility of more long distance stock arriving as well.

 

[Jez]

perhaps then if we don't have a full list of diagrams we can observe and discuss any obvious changes from the May timetable change. To be honest id be surprised if 150s replaced the 3 South Wales 158 diagrams as any 150 that have been displaced by other traction would surely be required either to replace pacers from December 2019 or go for modifications if before December 2019. There isn't really a need to replace the South 158s unless there is a massive shortage on the Cambrian line.

 

[anamyd]

perhaps then if we don't have a full list of diagrams we can observe and discuss any obvious changes from the May timetable change. To be honest id be surprised if 150s replaced the 3 South Wales 158 diagrams as any 150 that have been displaced by other traction would surely be required either to replace pacers from December 2019 or go for modifications if before December 2019. There isn't really a need to replace the South 158s unless there is a massive shortage on the Cambrian line.

apparently one of the engines failed recently on a 158 going towards Aberystwyth, so it was terminated at Machynlleth and replaced not by another unit but by a bus.

 

[craigybagel]

perhaps then if we don't have a full list of diagrams we can observe and discuss any obvious changes from the May timetable change. To be honest id be surprised if 150s replaced the 3 South Wales 158 diagrams as any 150 that have been displaced by other traction would surely be required either to replace pacers from December 2019 or go for modifications if before December 2019. There isn't really a need to replace the South 158s unless there is a massive shortage on the Cambrian line.

Maintaining a certain amount of 158 work in the South is also good for keeping Carmarthen and Cardiff depots competent on them - otherwise the only alternative to 175s on Manchester - West Wales services would be 150s, and that isn't exactly ideal.

 

[anamyd]

Maintaining a certain amount of 158 work in the South is also good for keeping Carmarthen and Cardiff depots competent on them - otherwise the only alternative to 175s on Manchester - West Wales services would be 150s, and that isn't exactly ideal.

There's a depot in Camarthen?!