ATW to 'hold talks' for buying D-Trains

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by gareth950, 25 May 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. gareth950

    gareth950 Member

    Messages:
    531
    Joined:
    3 Nov 2013
    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/piccadilly-circus-pontypridd-could-london-9319837

    According to the South Wales Echo and it's sister website (linked above), ATW are about to enter talks with Vivarail to get hold of some of its D-trains to boost capacity across the ATW network.
    The Heart of Wales line, as well as branches in West and North Wales are mentioned, with either D-trains working those lines to free up 150s for the Valleys, or the D-trains being deployed onto the Valleys lines themselves.

    According to the article D-trains could arrive in Wales 'as early as next spring'.

    TBH this article doesn't surprise me. With all the focus on these forums on the Northern franchise and the capacity problems there, it's been forgotten that ATW has just as bad capacity problems on nearly all of it's routes, especially the valleys. The valleys has decrepit 142s to get rid of as well!

    With franchise renewal for ATW just a few years away now, could ATW use getting some D-trains as extra capacity as a way of saying 'look, we've listened and now we ARE doing something?'
    With electrification of the valley lines looking to be another 10 years away, as much as having second hand, 35 year old stock isn't ideal or the answer to capacity issues long term, if D-trains can provide the relief capacity that the valleys need until electrification, and the valleys then DO actually get NEW rolling stock with electrification, then surely this can't be too bad for the ATW network?
     
    Last edited: 25 May 2015
  2. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    20,778
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Sounds good to me. The huge windows on the D-trains will be very nice for a ride on the Conwy Valley, and the 60mph speed limit will be of no consequence.

    It's amazing how much ATW sometimes act like DB - first, the loco-hauled trains, then the tendency to refurbish to a high standard older trains (i.e. Mk3s and now maybe D78s).
     
    Last edited: 25 May 2015
  3. edwin_m

    edwin_m Established Member

    Messages:
    10,977
    Joined:
    21 Apr 2013
    Location:
    Nottingham
    60mph could be significant on the HoWL though, because it has relatively long 75mph runs each end. Probably doesn't matter on the current timetable but will make it more difficult if they want to go to a timetable where a round trip can be done in 8hr. The Pembroke Dock and Fishguard trains also have 75mph runs which may make the eastern end of these journeys a bit slower. I suspect the 60mph top speed is least significant in the Valleys, where the better acceleration and hill-climbing would work in their favour. This would only be a stopgap of 5yr or so until electrification though.
     
    Last edited: 25 May 2015
  4. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

    Messages:
    25,657
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    I've thought for a while that Wales will either get D-Trains or the rest of the 143s and the 144s converted to 'ePacers' due to the plan to electrify Valley Lines but not until after 2019.
     
    Last edited: 25 May 2015
  5. gareth950

    gareth950 Member

    Messages:
    531
    Joined:
    3 Nov 2013
    I agree, but Valley lines electrification is now due between 2019 - 2024 last time I heard anything about it.

    Pacers were a 'stop-gap' measure though................:(
     
  6. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

    Messages:
    4,181
    Joined:
    26 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Newtown Montgomeryshire
    Vivarail were hawking there product around the Welsh Government in January it's inconceivable that ATW will be doing this off their own bat given the past history of someone else must pay for enhancements. It's an open secret that there talking about giving Arriva an extension to the franchise due to the difficulties they seem to be encountering figuring out how to organise a not for profit franchise.

    How much of a timeframe Vivarail will have to make a profit before electrification is hard to see. I presume there doing this to help provide an hourly service between Cardiff and Holyhead by freeing up the 3 158's that do S Wales diagrams. Folk will be going around in London Underground cast offs in south and west wales so that more fresh air can be carted from Cardiff to Holyhead and more north wales coast and Wrexham passengers are forced into changing at Shrewsbury and Chester.
     
  7. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    20,778
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Whatever happens, ATW needs more stock. 2 car regional express services have had their day.
     
  8. Blindtraveler

    Blindtraveler Established Member

    Messages:
    7,684
    Joined:
    28 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
    Not suitable for the HOWL if you ask me but Valleys and Bay most definately! Could free 150s for elsewhere in turn freeing up other units.
     
  9. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

    Messages:
    7,136
    Joined:
    14 Nov 2011
    Location:
    Caerphilly
    ATW don't have any 144s. 142s and 143s which can be placed into the same category.
     
    Last edited: 25 May 2015
  10. D365

    D365 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,160
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Not at the moment they don't, but if the 'ePacer' overhaul is to go ahead they might receive a short-term allocation.
     
  11. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

    Messages:
    7,136
    Joined:
    14 Nov 2011
    Location:
    Caerphilly
    What is the source of your information which I very much doubt ?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Don't forget HOWL trains are not confined to HOWL. They run on Main Lines at each end with far higher speeds required.
     
  12. D365

    D365 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,160
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Err, all I said was they might receive an allocation of overhauled Pacers in the interim period, prior to electrification. As far as I know, the only difference in classification/allocation between the 143 and 144 was due (initially) to the underframe being sourced from different manufacturers.
     
  13. ReeceEmmitt

    ReeceEmmitt Member

    Messages:
    33
    Joined:
    5 Oct 2014
    Considering how strongly ATW push the 'there is no additional trains available' and 'all our serviceable units are operational' lines I think all they need at the moment is bodies, so to speak.

    Would these be interoperable with existing 14x/15x units or not? (I expect not). And I wonder if it would be preferable to limit these to the quite 'self contained' lines in the Valleys (City and Cardiff Bay), though that would obviously free up only a handful of units for service elsewhere.
     
  14. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Established Member

    Messages:
    10,161
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    Very true, it must be a WG initiative.
    The piece reported is by Rhodri Clark who knows what he is talking about (contributor to Modern Railways).
    As long as we don't get D-60s replacing 158/175 on faster routes.
    That wipes out (eg) Maesteg and Ebbw Vale because they run a fair way on the main line.
    Fine for Wrexham-Bidston and Llandudno-Blanau Ff.
    I would have thought Plan A was to acquire enough to pension off the Pacers.
     
    Last edited: 25 May 2015
  15. JaJaWa

    JaJaWa Established Member

    Messages:
    1,037
    Joined:
    14 Feb 2013
    Location:
    St. Albans | Leeds | Hong Kong | Shenzhen
    I would have thought any Arriva / TOC bid would be most likely to have had confirmed interest in the D Trains considering their CEO's connection
     
  16. headshot119

    headshot119 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,543
    Joined:
    31 Dec 2010
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Not suitable for Wrexham - Bidston as they interwork with a Wrexham - Shrewsbury service in the morning, and the opposite in the evening.

    Not suitable for Llandudno - Blaenau Ffestiniog as they interworking with a Llandudno - Crewe service.

    The best place for them would probably be on the valleys network. But even then they aren't suitable for everywhere.

    Perhaps the Radyr - Corytons, and the bay. That would free up a 142, a 143, and 2 X 153s for use elsewhere. (Although it would not doubt displease DanTheTrainMan)

    I'd be reluctant to have them doing trips to any other valley line destination just because of the journey length.
     
  17. Parallel

    Parallel Established Member

    Messages:
    1,406
    Joined:
    9 Dec 2013
    I agree that ATW really needs more stock now. I think Pacers are more appropriate for most of the routes than the D-stock though.

    I guess the problem is no more 143s/144s are going to be available for at least the next couple of years. They would probably be able to get hold of FGW's 8 x 143s in 2017 (which were only refurbished about 5 years ago) as long as Thames Valley electrification isn't delayed. Northern will also need to get rid of their 23 x 144s before 2020, and taking away the 15 x 142s ATW will need to shift, they could still have 16 units more (than they currently have) before 2020. It is also worth considering what will happen with the 153s.

    A limited amount of D-stock trains would help enormously in the short term. As others have said, maybe on the Cardiff Bay shuttles, the city line services and maybe extra services between Cardiff and Pontypridd. This could then cascade a few units to elsewhere on the network.
     
  18. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    20,778
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Diagrams can be changed if it is expedient to do so. They are not set in stone.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    If the interior is 2+2 with tables and generous legroom, with good window alignment, as is being shown in the examples, then I'd rather have one on a long journey than a 150.
     
  19. MarkyT

    MarkyT Established Member

    Messages:
    1,998
    Joined:
    20 May 2012
    Location:
    Torbay
    The Ebbw Vales might run on the reliefs between Newport and Cardiff, speed and stopping pattern segregated from expresses if any new stations were to be opened on the route. Stopping trains between Cardiff and Bridgend might also work with the better acceleration and sparser traffic giving longer gaps between expresses, but you'd need to do a run simulation to confirm. If any additional stations were opened in the long section between Cardiff and Pontyclun then the trains' performance might actually be an improvement on what sprinters and pacers could achieve.
     
    Last edited: 25 May 2015
  20. headshot119

    headshot119 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,543
    Joined:
    31 Dec 2010
    Location:
    Cardiff
    You might get away with dropping the Wrexham - Shrewsbury trains. For the Conwy Valley it's gonnah need a large amount of ECS mileage to drop that service train.
     
  21. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    20,778
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    ECS mileage to where? Who says the Conwy Valley trains couldn't be kept at Llandudno Junction if the D-train really is as easy to maintain as alleged?
     
  22. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    23,437
    Joined:
    17 Apr 2011
    Location:
    The very best part of rural Cheshire East.
    How many of the D78 units are to be involved in this package with ATW from the Vivarail total unit stock availability?

    When will all the Vivarail required testing said to be completed to see if full approval for their use is allowed?
     
  23. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Established Member

    Messages:
    10,161
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    I think the stock is already passed for NR use because it has worked over the NR East Putney-Wimbledon line for many years.
     
  24. Welshman

    Welshman Established Member

    Messages:
    2,487
    Joined:
    11 Mar 2010
    The stock for the Blaenau branch comes as ECS from Chester in the morning, and returns to Crewe as the 2145 off Llandudno in the evening.

    That is the only passenger service it works on the NW Coast line, and would it make that much difference if that solitary train were to be timed for 60mph? It's hardly going to delay anything else on the line that time of night.

    I think this stock would be ideal - decent legroom, seats lined-up to wide windows - ideal for appreciating the beauty of the Conwy Valley.
     
  25. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    23,437
    Joined:
    17 Apr 2011
    Location:
    The very best part of rural Cheshire East.
    If this be the case, then what does the proposed testing that has been mentioned in some posts on "the master thread" actually so entail?
     
  26. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

    Messages:
    7,136
    Joined:
    14 Nov 2011
    Location:
    Caerphilly
    Decisions on routes would have to be based on where they would be maintained. Cardiff would be the logical spot as anything in the north would not occupy the whole fleet and they would have to travel on Main line routes to get to and from there. Valleys, as far as I see it, would be the only suitable area.
     
  27. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    20,778
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Is it not one of the fundamentals of the design that it is intended to be easily maintainable at locations without full depot services?
     
  28. headshot119

    headshot119 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,543
    Joined:
    31 Dec 2010
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Until it needs anything major doing and has to transit to Crewe or Cardiff
     
  29. 30907

    30907 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,157
    Joined:
    30 Sep 2012
    Location:
    North Lancs Loop
    Running the Cardiff Valleys with D78s, assuming they are viable, strikes me as a sensible option: a substantial, almost entirely self contained network (Maesteg and Ebbw Vale aren't strictly speaking Cardiff Valleys anyway!), with nowhere more than an hour from Cardiff.

    The units released would only be 150s, of course, but there's nothing better available anyway.
     
  30. SprinterMan

    SprinterMan Established Member

    Messages:
    2,320
    Joined:
    20 Sep 2010
    Location:
    Hertford
    I completely agree, the D78s would be perfect for the valleys and seem to be a damn sight better than a pacer at any rate :)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page