ATW to 'hold talks' for buying D-Trains

Sounds good to me. The huge windows on the D-trains will be very nice for a ride on the Conwy Valley, and the 60mph speed limit will be of no consequence.

It's amazing how much ATW sometimes act like DB - first, the loco-hauled trains, then the tendency to refurbish to a high standard older trains (i.e. Mk3s and now maybe D78s).

 

60mph could be significant on the HoWL though, because it has relatively long 75mph runs each end. Probably doesn't matter on the current timetable but will make it more difficult if they want to go to a timetable where a round trip can be done in 8hr. The Pembroke Dock and Fishguard trains also have 75mph runs which may make the eastern end of these journeys a bit slower. I suspect the 60mph top speed is least significant in the Valleys, where the better acceleration and hill-climbing would work in their favour. This would only be a stopgap of 5yr or so until electrification though.

 

I've thought for a while that Wales will either get D-Trains or the rest of the 143s and the 144s converted to 'ePacers' due to the plan to electrify Valley Lines but not until after 2019.

 

Vivarail were hawking there product around the Welsh Government in January it's inconceivable that ATW will be doing this off their own bat given the past history of someone else must pay for enhancements. It's an open secret that there talking about giving Arriva an extension to the franchise due to the difficulties they seem to be encountering figuring out how to organise a not for profit franchise.

How much of a timeframe Vivarail will have to make a profit before electrification is hard to see. I presume there doing this to help provide an hourly service between Cardiff and Holyhead by freeing up the 3 158's that do S Wales diagrams. Folk will be going around in London Underground cast offs in south and west wales so that more fresh air can be carted from Cardiff to Holyhead and more north wales coast and Wrexham passengers are forced into changing at Shrewsbury and Chester.

 

Whatever happens, ATW needs more stock. 2 car regional express services have had their day.

 

Not suitable for the HOWL if you ask me but Valleys and Bay most definately! Could free 150s for elsewhere in turn freeing up other units.

 

ATW don't have any 144s. 142s and 143s which can be placed into the same category.

 

Not at the moment they don't, but if the 'ePacer' overhaul is to go ahead they might receive a short-term allocation.

 

What is the source of your information which I very much doubt ?
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Don't forget HOWL trains are not confined to HOWL. They run on Main Lines at each end with far higher speeds required.

 

Err, all I said was they might receive an allocation of overhauled Pacers in the interim period, prior to electrification. As far as I know, the only difference in classification/allocation between the 143 and 144 was due (initially) to the underframe being sourced from different manufacturers.

 

Considering how strongly ATW push the 'there is no additional trains available' and 'all our serviceable units are operational' lines I think all they need at the moment is bodies, so to speak.

Would these be interoperable with existing 14x/15x units or not? (I expect not). And I wonder if it would be preferable to limit these to the quite 'self contained' lines in the Valleys (City and Cardiff Bay), though that would obviously free up only a handful of units for service elsewhere.

 

Very true, it must be a WG initiative.
The piece reported is by Rhodri Clark who knows what he is talking about (contributor to Modern Railways).
As long as we don't get D-60s replacing 158/175 on faster routes.
That wipes out (eg) Maesteg and Ebbw Vale because they run a fair way on the main line.
Fine for Wrexham-Bidston and Llandudno-Blanau Ff.
I would have thought Plan A was to acquire enough to pension off the Pacers.

 

I would have thought any Arriva / TOC bid would be most likely to have had confirmed interest in the D Trains considering their CEO's connection

 

Not suitable for Wrexham - Bidston as they interwork with a Wrexham - Shrewsbury service in the morning, and the opposite in the evening.

Not suitable for Llandudno - Blaenau Ffestiniog as they interworking with a Llandudno - Crewe service.

The best place for them would probably be on the valleys network. But even then they aren't suitable for everywhere.

Perhaps the Radyr - Corytons, and the bay. That would free up a 142, a 143, and 2 X 153s for use elsewhere. (Although it would not doubt displease DanTheTrainMan)

I'd be reluctant to have them doing trips to any other valley line destination just because of the journey length.

 

I agree that ATW really needs more stock now. I think Pacers are more appropriate for most of the routes than the D-stock though.

I guess the problem is no more 143s/144s are going to be available for at least the next couple of years. They would probably be able to get hold of FGW's 8 x 143s in 2017 (which were only refurbished about 5 years ago) as long as Thames Valley electrification isn't delayed. Northern will also need to get rid of their 23 x 144s before 2020, and taking away the 15 x 142s ATW will need to shift, they could still have 16 units more (than they currently have) before 2020. It is also worth considering what will happen with the 153s.

A limited amount of D-stock trains would help enormously in the short term. As others have said, maybe on the Cardiff Bay shuttles, the city line services and maybe extra services between Cardiff and Pontypridd. This could then cascade a few units to elsewhere on the network.

 

Diagrams can be changed if it is expedient to do so. They are not set in stone.
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If the interior is 2+2 with tables and generous legroom, with good window alignment, as is being shown in the examples, then I'd rather have one on a long journey than a 150.

 

The Ebbw Vales might run on the reliefs between Newport and Cardiff, speed and stopping pattern segregated from expresses if any new stations were to be opened on the route. Stopping trains between Cardiff and Bridgend might also work with the better acceleration and sparser traffic giving longer gaps between expresses, but you'd need to do a run simulation to confirm. If any additional stations were opened in the long section between Cardiff and Pontyclun then the trains' performance might actually be an improvement on what sprinters and pacers could achieve.

 

You might get away with dropping the Wrexham - Shrewsbury trains. For the Conwy Valley it's gonnah need a large amount of ECS mileage to drop that service train.

 

ECS mileage to where? Who says the Conwy Valley trains couldn't be kept at Llandudno Junction if the D-train really is as easy to maintain as alleged?

 

How many of the D78 units are to be involved in this package with ATW from the Vivarail total unit stock availability?

When will all the Vivarail required testing said to be completed to see if full approval for their use is allowed?

 

I think the stock is already passed for NR use because it has worked over the NR East Putney-Wimbledon line for many years.

 

The stock for the Blaenau branch comes as ECS from Chester in the morning, and returns to Crewe as the 2145 off Llandudno in the evening.

That is the only passenger service it works on the NW Coast line, and would it make that much difference if that solitary train were to be timed for 60mph? It's hardly going to delay anything else on the line that time of night.

I think this stock would be ideal - decent legroom, seats lined-up to wide windows - ideal for appreciating the beauty of the Conwy Valley.

 

If this be the case, then what does the proposed testing that has been mentioned in some posts on "the master thread" actually so entail?

 

Decisions on routes would have to be based on where they would be maintained. Cardiff would be the logical spot as anything in the north would not occupy the whole fleet and they would have to travel on Main line routes to get to and from there. Valleys, as far as I see it, would be the only suitable area.

 

Is it not one of the fundamentals of the design that it is intended to be easily maintainable at locations without full depot services?

 

Until it needs anything major doing and has to transit to Crewe or Cardiff

 

Running the Cardiff Valleys with D78s, assuming they are viable, strikes me as a sensible option: a substantial, almost entirely self contained network (Maesteg and Ebbw Vale aren't strictly speaking Cardiff Valleys anyway!), with nowhere more than an hour from Cardiff.

The units released would only be 150s, of course, but there's nothing better available anyway.

 

I completely agree, the D78s would be perfect for the valleys and seem to be a damn sight better than a pacer at any rate