ATW to 'hold talks' for buying D-Trains

[sprinterguy]

Are the Turbos even considered second-generation? They're definitely not based on a Mark 3 or any contemporary design of the '80s.

Why wouldn't they be? They replaced first generation DMUs (and some loco-hauled). As Neil Williams says, they were built not long after the 158s/159s.
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I've seen 170s described as 2nd generation on these forums. I've always considered anything post-privatisation to be the "3rd generation".

Third generation" DMUs will be whatever replaces the second generation units, and at present no new DMU order has resulted in the withdrawal of second generation units (some displacement, as with the TPE 185s releasing 158s, but not complete replacement). With the modern Bombardier DMUs in particular, there is a clear design lineage with pre-privatisation designs such as the Network Turbos. Some post-privatisation DMU designs, such as the class 175s, still directly replaced first generation DMUs and loco-hauled trains.

 

[pemma]

All very well buts whose paying? ATW have a poor record on paying for anything above what the franchise agreement specifies unless someone else pays, aka Welsh Goverbment. The LHCS on the north wales coast is a fine from DfT that DB had to pay for taking over Arriva, it's not an example of what great chaps ATW are who do things off their own bat. Vivarail want to turn a profit and there stymied up north by election promises.

Shooter made a claim that operating D78s would be 33% cheaper than operating Sprinters, so in theory ATW could release all their 142s, 143s, 150s and take on a greater number D-Trains and not spend any extra.

Claire Perry whose still a DFT Minister said "not on my watch" about D78's.

ATW alongside Scotrail, Merseyrail and LO are not let by DfT.

 

[Wolfie]

You would think really that either these trains have to meet modern crash test standards, or every signal on the lines they are used on should have TPWS. of course that still level crossing crashes?

Most trains operating on the network don't meet the current (what modern means is highly subjective) crash test standards either but rely on grandfather rights also... your point is?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Shooter made a claim that operating D78s would be 33% cheaper than operating Sprinters, so in theory ATW could release all their 142s, 143s, 150s and take on a greater number D-Trains and not spend any extra.



ATW alongside Scotrail, Merseyrail and LO are not let by DfT.

ATW will have signed leases with Porterbrook etc about leasing stock up to the end of the franchise with no doubt a hefty penalty clause for bailing out. BR could shuffle fleets around the UK because it was a single integrated entity, ATW is no such thing bound by contracts with other disaggregated parts of what was once a unified system. Swapping D78's for Pacers is simply not going to happen during the life of the Wales and Borders franchise.

 

[pemma]

ATW will have signed leases with Porterbrook etc about leasing stock up to the end of the franchise with no doubt a hefty penalty clause for bailing out.

I think that will likely be the case.

However, there is a national DMU shortage and a number of DMUs are going to have to go in for major refurbishments ahead of the December 2019 deadline so I'm sure ATW could find operators to sublease units to even if Porterbrook would want to impose penalties for ending the lease early.

Arriva could even propose a cheap option in their bid for Northern for the requirement of trains having modern interiors - take on the ATW 150s and refresh them opposed to stripping out original BR seating from the 150s Northern Rail currently have.

 

[kieron]

Arriva could even propose a cheap option in their bid for Northern for the requirement of trains having modern interiors - take on the ATW 150s and refresh them opposed to stripping out original BR seating from the 150s Northern Rail currently have.

Perhaps they could do that with something along those lines with the pacers Porterbrook are doing up, but the Northern bids are due in in a month, and D-trains haven't started safety tests. I don't think there's anything like enough time to be able to promise the DfT that they will ever enter service.

As you say, I doubt Arriva will have any difficulty in finding other uses for any of their current fleet which is released by D-trains if and when they take some on.

 

[NX]

What complete and total garbage. Is there any pleasing them? As for the guard, there is no more reason why these would or would not be DOO than any other new or used rolling stock. ATW have made no suggestions that there will be any DOO, and fGW have climbed down from it...so I would see DOO as very unlikely whatever the stock.

There is not the money for a capacity increasing build of 172s or similar. It's as simple as that. So what's to lose?

FGW haven't backed down from DOO-P in fact they are pushing even more for it!

NX

 

[WelshBluebird]

Shooter made a claim that operating D78s would be 33% cheaper than operating Sprinters, so in theory ATW could release all their 142s, 143s, 150s and take on a greater number D-Trains and not spend any extra.

Having a 150 on a Cardiff to Holyhead or Cardiff to Manchester service is bad enough, I don't even want to think what it would be like on one of these D78's (if ATW did as you say and got rid of all their 150's).

 

[pemma]

Having a 150 on a Cardiff to Holyhead or Cardiff to Manchester service is bad enough, I don't even want to think what it would be like on one of these D78's (if ATW did as you say and got rid of all their 150's).

153s? They were designed for regional routes before being split, unlike the 150s which were really designed for commuter services but put on long distance services initially.

 

[PHILIPE]

Having a 150 on a Cardiff to Holyhead or Cardiff to Manchester service is bad enough, I don't even want to think what it would be like on one of these D78's (if ATW did as you say and got rid of all their 150's).

A D78 wouldn't be allowed to work from Cardiff to Holyhead because of their lower max speed for one thing and most probably Traction knowledge also. I don't think ATW would get rid of their 150s, as the D78s would just supplement their current fleet.

 

[anthony263]

The 150's are certainly a good asset for ATW I have lost count of times a class 150 has come to ATW's aid when one of the class 158/175's is unavailable or has failed

 

[47802]

Most trains operating on the network don't meet the current (what modern means is highly subjective) crash test standards either but rely on grandfather rights also... your point is?

No but they were built to whatever mainline standards applied at the time they were built, were the D78's? I suspect not.

If Shooter and co want to regard them as new trains then perhaps they should have to meet the same regulations as the proper new trains.

Alternatively if they can not meet the current regulations then perhaps they need to be treated under similar rules to tram trains.

It seems to me shooter and co both want to have their cake and eat it.

 

[Gareth Marston]

No but they were built to whatever mainline standards applied at the time they were built, were the D78's? I suspect not.

If Shooter and co want to regard them as new trains then perhaps they should have to meet the same regulations as the proper new trains.

Alternatively if they can not meet the current regulations then perhaps they need to be treated under similar rules to tram trains.

It seems to me shooter and co both want to have their cake and eat it.

Remember there doing it for profit! They probably correctly guessed what the DfT's officials position was on new stock for the north and saw an opportunity however there reading of the political tea leafs has been hopeless. If and its a big if, if ATW are going to pay themselves then it might happen , however if ATW are going to go cap in hand to the Welsh Government and say we've got this whizzo idea to acquire extra stock cough up then politics comes into play. South Wales stakeholders have been very vehement in insisting that the valleys get brand new EMU's and not cast offs from Essex, this will not go down well with them.

 

[Hophead]

Remember there doing it for profit! They probably correctly guessed what the DfT's officials position was on new stock for the north and saw an opportunity however there reading of the political tea leafs has been hopeless.

I very much doubt quesswork came into it. Not in the longer term anyway. I'd suggest that an agreeable lunch at the golf club between a civil servant or two and some representatives from the company will have given them the confidence to proceed with their plans.

After all, we're only having this conversation because the minister overruled his department's willingness (eagerness?) to have D78s considered for the Northern franchise bids.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I very much doubt quesswork came into it. Not in the longer term anyway. I'd suggest that an agreeable lunch at the golf club between a civil servant or two and some representatives from the company will have given them the confidence to proceed with their plans.

After all, we're only having this conversation because the minister overruled his department's willingness (eagerness?) to have D78s considered for the Northern franchise bids.

Officials and Ministers are not always on the same page and sometimes political expediency trumps Sir Hunphreys best laid plans, Mr Shooters found out the hard way.

 

[Wolfie]

Officials and Ministers are not always on the same page and sometimes political expediency trumps Sir Hunphreys best laid plans, Mr Shooters found out the hard way.

Wait until the Northern bids are in and the exact costs become clear, at the very same time as the Transport Dept is one of the prime areas for cuts in the Govt´s enhanced austerity campaign, before you make any such assessment.... if things come out much dearer than expected all bets could well be off...
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No but they were built to whatever mainline standards applied at the time they were built, were the D78's? I suspect not.

Don´t be so sure... see Section 14 of attached. In particular the following stands out: ´Approval for LU rolling stock to operate on Network Rail infrastructure is achieved in accordance with Railway Group Standards.´

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/safety-certification-complete.pdf

 

[Parallel]

The 150's are certainly a good asset for ATW I have lost count of times a class 150 has come to ATW's aid when one of the class 158/175's is unavailable or has failed

Indeed, and sometimes 150s seem to be made available by splitting pacers that are working doubled up.

It does make you wonder where ATW will be in 2020 if the D-78 stock doesn't work out and the DDA compliant pacers don't happen. Arriva kind of has to go for one of those two options, because I can't see the 2020 deadline being postponed or the electrification of the Valleys being brought forward.

I think the worst is yet to come though. There are a lot of 150s that need work all over the UK in the next 5 years, along with 153s and potentially 143s/144s if anyone's willing to take them on. I assume 156s will need work too, and 158s will need tweaking? Stock is going to be very stretched whilst this work takes place...

 

[Wolfie]

Indeed, and sometimes 150s seem to be made available by splitting pacers that are working doubled up.

It does make you wonder where ATW will be in 2020 if the D-78 stock doesn't work out and the DDA compliant pacers don't happen. Arriva kind of has to go for one of those two options, because I can't see the 2020 deadline being postponed or the electrification of the Valleys being brought forward.

I think the worst is yet to come though. There are a lot of 150s that need work all over the UK in the next 5 years, along with 153s and potentially 143s/144s if anyone's willing to take them on. I assume 156s will need work too, and 158s will need tweaking? Stock is going to be very stretched whilst this work takes place...

Good grief, an outbreak of common sense. At the very least the so called D trains may provide the necessary float to allow other rolling stock to be made DDA compliant.

 

[gazthomas]

Good grief, an outbreak of common sense. At the very least the so called D trains may provide the necessary float to allow other rolling stock to be made DDA compliant.

Bravo!

 

[WelshBluebird]

153s? They were designed for regional routes before being split, unlike the 150s which were really designed for commuter services but put on long distance services initially.

How many do they have though?
The reason the 150's are used so heavily to replace 158's and 175's is because ATW have a lot of them, so there is a fairly good chance there will be one available to work a diagram if a 175 or 158 is not available. I doubt you can say the same for ATW's 153 fleet.

A D78 wouldn't be allowed to work from Cardiff to Holyhead because of their lower max speed for one thing and most probably Traction knowledge also. I don't think ATW would get rid of their 150s, as the D78s would just supplement their current fleet.

I agree totally, I was just replying to the post from jcollins suggesting that the D78's could replace the 150's.

 

[craigybagel]

How many do they have though?
The reason the 150's are used so heavily to replace 158's and 175's is because ATW have a lot of them, so there is a fairly good chance there will be one available to work a diagram if a 175 or 158 is not available. I doubt you can say the same for ATW's 153 fleet.

ATW have 8 153s.

One other advantage the 150s have is they can go almost everywhere. With the exception of Machynlleth and Pwllheli depots (where they can't go because of ERTMS anyway) all staff at all depots can work 150s. 153 knowledge is more limited, especially in North Wales.

All hypothetical though - the D train would be such a good fit for the valleys and a compromise anywhere else in the network its hard to see why they would be sent anywhere else IMO.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Wait until the Northern bids are in and the exact costs become clear, at the very same time as the Transport Dept is one of the prime areas for cuts in the Govt´s enhanced austerity campaign, before you make any such assessment.... if things come out much dearer than expected all bets could well be off...

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Well they'll be playing with broken election promises straight after the election if they pare the Northern franchise back and let them have D78's. They made some quite specific pledges on rail however on the roads it was general and woolly. The easiest option would be to de-prioritise some road schemes that didn't really have a set timescale in favor of the election promises. The construction sector are still going to have HS2 to feed on so they wont be so anxious about a bypass or dual carriageway scheme here and there not going ahead.

 

[pemma]

How many do they have though?
The reason the 150's are used so heavily to replace 158's and 175's is because ATW have a lot of them, so there is a fairly good chance there will be one available to work a diagram if a 175 or 158 is not available. I doubt you can say the same for ATW's 153 fleet.

They may not have that many 153s but D-Trains could release them from their current routes to allow them to fill in on longer routes. How often do ATW use 150s on Holyhead/Manchester to South Wales services?

I agree totally, I was just replying to the post from jcollins suggesting that the D78's could replace the 150's.

I was originally responding to a post of how they could be paid for by saying if Mr. Shooter's claim about operating costs is true ATW could trade in their 150s for a greater number of D78s and it would be cost neutral.

 

[Gareth Marston]

They may not have that many 153s but D-Trains could release them from their current routes to allow them to fill in on longer routes. How often do ATW use 150s on Holyhead/Manchester to South Wales services?



I was originally responding to a post of how they could be paid for by saying if Mr. Shooter's claim about operating costs is true ATW could trade in their 150s for a greater number of D78s and it would be cost neutral.

As I posted previously ATW are locked in to having the 150's until the end of the franchise, nothing is going to change until Dec18 unless it's additional.

 

[craigybagel]

They may not have that many 153s but D-Trains could release them from their current routes to allow them to fill in on longer routes. How often do ATW use 150s on Holyhead/Manchester to South Wales services?

Only booked on A Sunday and on the last Cardiff -Crewe and Shrewsbury - Cardiff trains of the day) to swap units between North and South). Otherwise it's only a as a last minute last resort and rare enough at that.

 

[pemma]

As I posted previously ATW are locked in to having the 150's until the end of the franchise, nothing is going to change until Dec18 unless it's additional.

If you want to believe that. (It's actually 14/10/2018 the leases end.)

I'm sure ATW could come to some sort of arrangement for a small fleet of 150s if they wanted to given the national DMU shortage and the number of trains needing modifications pre-December 2019. Also remember ROSCOs like long term deals so it could be a lease is terminated by mutual consent if another operator is willing to sign a 8 year lease, given ATW are in a situation like TPE were with the 170s in that they need them a bit longer but can't commit to needing them as long as other operators.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If you want to believe that. (It's actually 14/10/2018 the leases end.)

I'm sure ATW could come to some sort of arrangement for a small fleet of 150s if they wanted to given the national DMU shortage and the number of trains needing modifications pre-December 2019. Also remember ROSCOs like long term deals so it could be a lease is terminated by mutual consent if another operator is willing to sign a 8 year lease, given ATW are in a situation like TPE were with the 170s in that they need them a bit longer but can't commit to needing them as long as other operators.

Given that the bids for Northern are already formulated its going to be brave or foolish bidder that proposes using ATW 150's freed up by D78's in Wales. The elephant in the room is how the Welsh Government reacts and the political reaction to what Vivarail/ATW propose and until we know that result you aren't going to be able to make plans for elsewhere with any degree of confidence. Any rational risk assessment of a bid on this basis would dismiss it out of hand.

 

[pemma]

Given that the bids for Northern are already formulated its going to be brave or foolish bidder that proposes using ATW 150's freed up by D78's in Wales.

Northern bidders actually have 1 month left to submit bids, only TPE bids have been submitted this week.

However, I wasn't talking specifically about Northern in that post, unlike you I wasn't just repeating what I already said. Every franchise with Sprinter stock will be sending them for overhauls in the next few years so a sublease of 150s could be beneficial to many operators.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Northern bidders actually have 1 month left to submit bids, only TPE bids have been submitted this week.

However, I wasn't talking specifically about Northern in that post, unlike you I wasn't just repeating what I already said. Every franchise with Sprinter stock will be sending them for overhauls in the next few years so a sublease of 150s could be beneficial to many operators.

I doubt very much that any of the bidders are going to alter their bids on the basis that ATW are to "hold talks" with Vivarail, the results we may not know about until well after the bid deadline for Northern is expired.

As to Sprinter stock overhauls have you got the timescales for them? What for instance happens if ATW speculatively get hold of some D78's and then start planing on sub leasing their 150's but the other operators overhauls don't happen until beyond 2018? ATW then carry "risk" that they wont have the Wales and Borders franchise and won't be able to benefit from the plan.

 

[pemma]

I doubt very much that any of the bidders are going to alter their bids on the basis that ATW are to "hold talks" with Vivarail, the results we may not know about until well after the bid deadline for Northern is expired.

I made a suggestion relating to the Northern franchise 3 days ago and you responded to it. Do you feel like I didn't read your post as you've repeated your response again and again even though I've not mentioned the Northern franchise again since?

As to Sprinter stock overhauls have you got the timescales for them? What for instance happens if ATW speculatively get hold of some D78's and then start planing on sub leasing their 150's but the other operators overhauls don't happen until beyond 2018? ATW then carry "risk" that they wont have the Wales and Borders franchise and won't be able to benefit from the plan.

I don't know the exact numbers of units being done when but I am certain the ROSCOs won't be leaving hundreds of Sprinters until after October 2018 as they've never get them done in time, unless there is going to be 14 months where a substantial number of services are replaced by buses.

ATW will be able to discuss plans with Porterbrook and if they can come to an amicable agreement then who knows what will happen.