Austria (and perhaps other European countries?) return to full lockdown

[WestCoast]

Hamburg is very different to Lederhosen Bonkers Beer Hall Land which is where all this stuff is cooking up at the moment.

Yes and no. The lowest vaccination rates are not in Bavaria (or over the border in Austria which is culturally similar) but actually in the Eastern German states. The reasons for hesitancy there are also common to former Eastern block countries. The eastern states have also been much more hesitant with masking and vaccine passports.

Hope you're right. Was hoping to go to Hamburg in December. Sick of it now. Absolutely sick of it.

I reckon you will be okay as long as you are willing to comply with the state rules (of Hamburg) on demonstrating vaccination status and mask wearing etc. You can read all the stuff in English on the Hamburg state website. Recommend importing your NHS vaccine certificate onto the German Corona-Warn App (all available in English) and then it generates an EU certificate which your hotel and restaurants/bars/cafes/museums can scan. They may be able to scan the NHS one now, but I would import it to be safe.

 

[WestRiding]

Yes and no. The lowest vaccination rates are not in Bavaria (or over the border in Austria which is culturally similar) but actually in the Eastern German states. The reasons for hesitancy there are also common to former Eastern block countries. The eastern states have also been much more hesitant with masking and vaccine passports.



I reckon you will be okay as long as you are willing to comply with the state rules (of Hamburg) on demonstrating vaccination status and mask wearing etc. You can read all the stuff in English on the Hamburg state website. Recommend importing your NHS vaccine certificate onto the German Corona-Warn App (all available in English) and then it generates an EU certificate which your hotel and restaurants/bars/cafes/museums can scan. They may be able to scan the NHS one now, but I would import it to be safe.

Thanks for the information. I knew nothing of this App.

 

[Bikeman78]

Exactly.


Fully vaccinated people account for the vast majority of the population, so of course this is the case; it's meaningless.

Well it's not completely meaningless because if 100% of people are vaccinated then the 2692 figure goes away but you still have at least 6233 hospital admissions in the same period. Then there's the small matter of five million people on waiting lists. The NHS is going to be utterly screwed for years to come. I just hope I don't need to use it.

I've no idea how Austria's figures compare but something has gone seriously wrong there.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well it's not completely meaningless because if 100% of people are vaccinated then the 2692 figure goes away but you still have at least 6233 hospital admissions in the same period. Then there's the small matter of five million people on waiting lists. The NHS is going to be utterly screwed for years to come. I just hope I don't need to use it.

I've no idea how Austria's figures compare but something has gone seriously wrong there.

If 100% of people are vaccinated then there is a corresponding effect on the number of people infecting each other, and therefore in hospitalised cases, because there is some dampening of spread, even if it is not totally nixed.

 

[brad465]

Rioting has begun in the Netherlands in response to their partial lockdown:

Rotterdam police clash with rioters as Covid protest turns violent

Seven people are injured in Rotterdam as protests against new coronavirus curbs turn violent.

www.bbc.co.uk

Dutch police fired warning shots and used water cannon after rioting erupted in Rotterdam over new Covid-19 measures.
Protesters threw rocks and fireworks at them and set police cars ablaze.
Hundreds of protesters had gathered to show their anger at government plans for a Covid vaccine pass, and a ban on fireworks on New Year's Eve.
The Netherlands imposed a three-week partial Covid lockdown last week as cases surged.
Police fired warning shots and direct shots "because the situation was life-threatening", a police spokesperson told Reuters news agency.
At least two people have been injured as a result of the shots, they added.
Rotterdam has been placed under a state of emergency and its main station has been closed as a result of the violence.
Videos posted on social media showed burnt-out police cars and rioters hurling rocks at police in one of the city's main shopping streets.
The Netherlands imposed fresh restrictions last Saturday after recording its highest numbers of Covid cases since the pandemic began.
The measures means restaurants and shops have to close earlier, and sports events must take place behind closed doors.
Demonstrators clashed with police in The Hague after the measures were announced.
The protesters in Rotterdam voiced their disapproval at government proposals to introduce a "corona pass" for those vaccinated against coronavirus or who have recovered from the disease.
If introduced, only those showing the pass would be allowed into indoor venues, such as restaurants and bars.
Earlier on Friday, the government banned fireworks on 31 December for the second year in a row. The ban would prevent "extra strain on healthcare", the government said.

 

[scarby]

UK Covid tests per 1,000 people is around 12.7. Sweden's is around 1.3. No wonder their infection rate is low.

The rate is based on the proportion of tests that are positive, so the number of people being tested shouldn't make much difference - in fact people repeatedly testing for the sake of it would be likely to bring the rate down. The low levels of hospitalisations and very low death rates back up that Sweden genuinely has a low infection rate.

Interviewed in today's DN newspaper, Uno Wennergren, professor in theoretical biology at Linköping University, believes that Sweden's high death toll "benefits" the country when it comes to the situation today. "It is tragic, and not a strategy one should apply, but it is a circumstance that is positive right now," he says. Far back in April 2020, Wennergren predicted that the death toll in Sweden would be between 10,000 and 20,000, and it has now reached around 15,000.

Wennergren adds that a high infection rate, particularly among the young, with Sweden having not closed its schools, is also a factor, as is the general high rate of infection over the past 20 months. Magnus Gisslén, chief physician and professor in infectious diseases at Gothenburg University, adds that. "Around a million Swedes have had a natural infection. It has an effect."

Link to article, (in Swedish, subscription required):

https://www.dn.se/vetenskap/sveriges-hoga-dodstal-kan-ha-skyddat-mot-fjarde-vag/

Obviously looking at a map of Europe right now, with previously hard hit countries like Italy, Spain, France and Sweden having lower rates, and the ones who kept more of a lid on it previously now being hit hard, there seems to be something in what they are saying.

 

[greyman42]

Yes and no. The lowest vaccination rates are not in Bavaria (or over the border in Austria which is culturally similar) but actually in the Eastern German states. The reasons for hesitancy there are also common to former Eastern block countries. The eastern states have also been much more hesitant with masking and vaccine passports.

Neither of which make any significant difference.

 

[WestRiding]

Rioting has begun in the Netherlands in response to their partial lockdown:

Rotterdam police clash with rioters as Covid protest turns violent

Seven people are injured in Rotterdam as protests against new coronavirus curbs turn violent.

www.bbc.co.uk

Good on the Dutch. Always had them down as a bunch of mellow, can't get worked up by anything and accept all, type of people.

 

[DustyBin]

Or they are going to suffer the long-term consequences of the effects of repeated infection; or even die from the second/subsequent infection as their body was weakened after the first case.

Is there any science behind this assertion?

Good on the Dutch. Always had them down as a bunch of mellow, can't get worked up by anything and accept all, type of people.

It’s good to see people pushing back although if the police are firing live rounds at protesters that’s escalated very quickly (it’s unclear at this stage whether that is the case).

 

[Yew]

I may be old fashioned, but facts rather than bizarre conspiracy theories matter to me.

If the facts are irrelevant, ("all hospitals in a region have patents with a common illness"), then you're at least being disingenuous. This feels almost like a "100% of murderers drank water before committing water" sort of misleading statistic.

 

[WestRiding]

Is there any science behind this assertion?



It’s good to see people pushing back although if the police are firing live rounds at protesters that’s escalated very quickly (it’s unclear at this stage whether that is the case).

I just didn't expect them to start rising up, went to Rotterdam a few times in 2019 and thought it was a very stepford wivesy society. People are just fed up now, after 2 years and nothing really getting better.

Germany's time soon, if little Austria did it, Germany will follow.

 

[WestCoast]

Thanks for the information. I knew nothing of this App.

You’re very welcome. Also recommend downloading another app called Luca which is what a lot of venues use to for you to check-in, which isn’t optional. You pop your details in and then scan upon entry.

Neither of which make any significant difference.

Personally I wouldn’t wish to even comment on the effectiveness of these measures, just purely making an observation so that people thinking of travelling can make an informed choice really. For those uncomfortable with restrictions, I wouldn’t recommend travelling there.

 

[DustyBin]

I just didn't expect them to start rising up, went to Rotterdam a few times in 2019 and thought it was a very stepford wivesy society. People are just fed up now, after 2 years and nothing really getting better.

Germany's time soon, if little Austria did it, Germany will follow.

I know a couple of Dutch people here in the UK and they are both very chilled and relaxed, they don’t let things rile them. That said I’ve always got the impression that if they said enough is enough to something they’d really mean it; perhaps that’s what we’re seeing here?

 

[WestRiding]

You’re very welcome. Also recommend downloading another app called Luca which is what a lot of venues use to for you to check-in, which isn’t optional. You pop your details in and then scan upon entry.




Personally I wouldn’t wish to even comment on the effectiveness of these measures, just purely making an observation so that people thinking of travelling can make an informed choice really. For those uncomfortable with restrictions, I wouldn’t recommend travelling there.

Brilliant, just need to get to 16th December..... Here's hoping.

 

[seagull]

Generally the Dutch are indeed pretty relaxed about things: the big difference though between here and there (and many other places) is that where we get fed up and just moan a bit more, there if they get fed up enough, and say they're going to do something, they are more likely to take action. It happened a couple of years ago with their farmers who were being threatened with loss of their livelihoods due to the EU wanting the Netherlands to transition to a country of housing not agriculture - thousands of farmers took their tractors and machines to The Hague (the Dutch political centre) and caused mass gridlock and protests. Then Covid came along and put a stop to mass protesting (or at least gave the police more powers of dispersal).

Not to say that action like that never happens here, but while we are quicker to be annoyed, it seems to take a lot more before us Brits stop just verbally complaining and actually do something. Which has its own positive points as well, especially in diplomacy.

 

[Busaholic]

I lived in Amsterdam for a few months in 1969 and managed to both get drenched by water cannon and get arrested in that period, when peaceful protests were taking place about a member of their royalty being appointed to Vice Chancellorship of a university. The police then called for back-up from outside Amsterdam and hundreds of bored cops arrived looking for probably the first 'action' of their lives and got stuck in. There the parallels end with the riots in Rotterdam: the protests in Amsterdam saw no violence by the protesters, no property or people attacked, and no police injuries to personnel or infrastructure. Almost all the protesters were in the late teens to early 20s age range, at least one third female, and of many different nationalities and races. The ones I've seen on the videos from Rotterdam were almost all male, white and in the late teens to fiftyish age range and seemed bent on mindless violence. The Netherlands came fairly close to voting in a far right government not so long ago and lockdowns will be used as a justification/excuse for returning to the state of mind that nearly achieved that. The comparison to the storming of the Capitol is far more apposite than to the brave Arab Spring or Hong Kong protesters.

 

[kylemore]

I lived in Amsterdam for a few months in 1969 and managed to both get drenched by water cannon and get arrested in that period, when peaceful protests were taking place about a member of their royalty being appointed to Vice Chancellorship of a university. The police then called for back-up from outside Amsterdam and hundreds of bored cops arrived looking for probably the first 'action' of their lives and got stuck in. There the parallels end with the riots in Rotterdam: the protests in Amsterdam saw no violence by the protesters, no property or people attacked, and no police injuries to personnel or infrastructure. Almost all the protesters were in the late teens to early 20s age range, at least one third female, and of many different nationalities and races. The ones I've seen on the videos from Rotterdam were almost all male, white and in the late teens to fiftyish age range and seemed bent on mindless violence. The Netherlands came fairly close to voting in a far right government not so long ago and lockdowns will be used as a justification/excuse for returning to the state of mind that nearly achieved that. The comparison to the storming of the Capitol is far more apposite than to the brave Arab Spring or Hong Kong protesters.

Well one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

I'm with the brave Dutch protesters on this one and chose to view many (if not all) of the "brave Arab Spring or Hong Kong protesters" as Sinister Western NGO managed Dupes.

 

[bramling]

Good on the Dutch. Always had them down as a bunch of mellow, can't get worked up by anything and accept all, type of people.

Unfortunately the only way out of this is if the politicians are sent a clear message.

 

[DustyBin]

I lived in Amsterdam for a few months in 1969 and managed to both get drenched by water cannon and get arrested in that period, when peaceful protests were taking place about a member of their royalty being appointed to Vice Chancellorship of a university. The police then called for back-up from outside Amsterdam and hundreds of bored cops arrived looking for probably the first 'action' of their lives and got stuck in. There the parallels end with the riots in Rotterdam: the protests in Amsterdam saw no violence by the protesters, no property or people attacked, and no police injuries to personnel or infrastructure. Almost all the protesters were in the late teens to early 20s age range, at least one third female, and of many different nationalities and races. The ones I've seen on the videos from Rotterdam were almost all male, white and in the late teens to fiftyish age range and seemed bent on mindless violence. The Netherlands came fairly close to voting in a far right government not so long ago and lockdowns will be used as a justification/excuse for returning to the state of mind that nearly achieved that. The comparison to the storming of the Capitol is far more apposite than to the brave Arab Spring or Hong Kong protesters.

It’s worth pointing out however that the appointment of a Vice Chancellor at a university is a relatively trivial matter in comparison…

 

[adc82140]

From this BBC article

Covid: WHO says it is very worried about Europe surge

The health organisation's regional director warns of half a million more deaths by March without action.

www.bbc.co.uk

Dr Kluge said factors like the winter season, insufficient vaccine coverage and the regional dominance of the more transmissible Delta variant were behind the spread. He called for increased vaccine uptake and the implementation of basic public health measures and new medical treatments to help fight the rise.
"Covid-19 has become once again the number one cause of mortality in our region," he told the BBC, adding "we know what needs to be done" in order to fight the disease.

He is the Head of the WHO in Europe, and is claiming Covid is the no. 1 cause of death. I don't think he's correct.

 

[yorksrob]

From this BBC article

Covid: WHO says it is very worried about Europe surge

The health organisation's regional director warns of half a million more deaths by March without action.

www.bbc.co.uk

He is the Head of the WHO in Europe, and is claiming Covid is the no. 1 cause of death. I don't think he's correct.

It's certainly not in the UK.

 

[philosopher]

I just didn't expect them to start rising up, went to Rotterdam a few times in 2019 and thought it was a very stepford wivesy society. People are just fed up now, after 2 years and nothing really getting better.

Germany's time soon, if little Austria did it, Germany will follow.

It will be interesting to see how well the Austria lockdown is complied with. My guess is that it will be widely flouted, with a lot of socialising that would happen in bars, restaurants, etc either shifting to homes or to neighbouring countries.

I imagine pub, bar and restaurant owners in Bratislava are secretly quite pleased about the Austria lockdown!

 

[brad465]

From this BBC article

Covid: WHO says it is very worried about Europe surge

The health organisation's regional director warns of half a million more deaths by March without action.

www.bbc.co.uk

He is the Head of the WHO in Europe, and is claiming Covid is the no. 1 cause of death. I don't think he's correct.

The WHO are acting as if winter is an absolute shock to the system. The long term management is increased healthcare capacity to cope with demand, and an acceptance that we can't save everybody, but will try our hardest to save as many as possible. Shutting down society every year is not a long term strategy and just delays the inevitable, if anything making things worse by concentrating all ailments into one short period.

 

[adc82140]

The WHO are acting as if winter is an absolute shock to the system. The long term management is increased healthcare capacity to cope with demand, and an acceptance that we can't save everybody, but will try our hardest to save as many as possible. Shutting down society every year is not a long term strategy and just delays the inevitable, if anything making things worse by concentrating all ailments into one short period.

Which is why our overall Covid levels are stable, and as a result of the booster jabs infections in the over 60s (which are the ones that matter) and subsequent hospital numbers are falling. We didn't reopen too early. Everyone else reopened too late.

 

[Freightmaster]

We didn't reopen too early. Everyone else reopened too late.

This x1000!





MARK

 

[hst43102]

We didn't reopen too early. Everyone else reopened too late.

Including us.

 

[Spamcan81]

From this BBC article

Covid: WHO says it is very worried about Europe surge

The health organisation's regional director warns of half a million more deaths by March without action.

www.bbc.co.uk

He is the Head of the WHO in Europe, and is claiming Covid is the no. 1 cause of death. I don't think he's correct.

And your evidence is?

 

[adc82140]

And your evidence is?

Let's use Germany as an example, as they are considering a lockdown:

According to the stats here

How Many People Die Each Day in 2024?

About 2,400 people die each day for any reason.

According to Worldometer

COVID Live Update: 243,312,149 Cases and 4,946,037 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...

www.worldometers.info

49 people died in Germany yesterday with a positivre Covid test.

 

[LAX54]

Yes and no. The lowest vaccination rates are not in Bavaria (or over the border in Austria which is culturally similar) but actually in the Eastern German states. The reasons for hesitancy there are also common to former Eastern block countries. The eastern states have also been much more hesitant with masking and vaccine passports.



I reckon you will be okay as long as you are willing to comply with the state rules (of Hamburg) on demonstrating vaccination status and mask wearing etc. You can read all the stuff in English on the Hamburg state website. Recommend importing your NHS vaccine certificate onto the German Corona-Warn App (all available in English) and then it generates an EU certificate which your hotel and restaurants/bars/cafes/museums can scan. They may be able to scan the NHS one now, but I would import it to be safe.

Tried importing the NHS cert, comes up as Not Valid. (expires 14.12.21)

 

[Eyersey468]

Another thing that those that are in favour of lockdowns doesn't seem to consider is if businesses keep being ordered to close at some point the owners of said businesses will simply say what's the point we will close for good, which means potentially millions of people will lose their jobs.