Avanti West Coast cancellations

[Pretendolino]

Thanks Clarence Yard. It really is starting to sound like the balance of responsibility lies with the DfT here if they are baking all this into the contracts.

Is this all down to one or two incompetent civil servants who thought they were being clever ‘reducing costs’ by forcing TOCs to lean on rest day working etc without realising the chaos they were about to cause?

Also, the DfT is publicly calling for more flexiblility from rail workers, which I take to mean contracting Sundays etc. At the same time they seem to be baking into contractual arrangements an over reliance on rest day working through the whole week. Is that not a complete contradiction?

It will be sort of interesting to see what happens when the schools go back but it is also damning what is happening at the moment. Summer happens every year. Fair enough there has been some impact from Covid but it sounds like the biggest culpability here is with the DfT.

You may also find that industrial action can be treated as a 'force majeure' event in the eyes of a Franchise Agreement / EMA / ERMA / NRC. While train operators have an element of influence over staff, they do not have complete control (otherwise they'd be assets on the balance sheet, right!).

This means that 'performance relief' can be sought against performance regimes (Schedule 7.1 TOC on Self Delays and Cancellations come to mind). This effectively takes delays/cancellations out the equation so that performance benchmarks aren't breached (hence no contractual breach) and large penalties are avoided. I'd expect other types of relief or easement of contractual terms can also be granted if circumstances are exceptional.

 

[the sniper]

Is this all down to one or two incompetent civil servants who thought they were being clever ‘reducing costs’ by forcing TOCs to lean on rest day working etc without realising the chaos they were about to cause?

The DfT seems to have taken lessons from the Russians on how (not) to prepare ahead of starting war...

To be fair to Avanti, you'll probably see similar in other TOCs if/when the DfT try to tighten the screws, it's seems to be early days in the greater dispute. Hopefully the Avanti situation might be a bit of a wake up call to the Government that the recoil off their big stick approach will be far more painful than a small carrot alternative, particularly if they're playing hard ball over a percent or two in negotiations. But I wouldn't bet on Truss having the sense for that (or anything, in general) at all.

 

[modernrail]

The "incompetent civil servants" at DfT are very likely to be professional railway industry consultants who are ex-BR/TOC/NR employees.
Some of them are from the same source that staffs the OLR operation for DfT.
It's expected they will end up as part of GBR.
The DfT staff still have to dance to the Treasury's tune, however, where operational railway knowledge will be in short supply.

I do have first hand experience of that particular Treasury issue, but I also have experience of civil servants not being across their brief in the first place, or not negotiating well with Treasury so Treasury can see the wood from the trees. The Treasury does need these things explaining properly which is sometimes the case.

Whichever it is, there is a lot of damage being caused. I now have a delay replay claim on every single one of my last 11 rail journeys, which is as astonishing revenue hit on top of people being put off in the first place.

 

[modernrail]

You may also find that industrial action can be treated as a 'force majeure' event in the eyes of a Franchise Agreement / EMA / ERMA / NRC. While train operators have an element of influence over staff, they do not have complete control (otherwise they'd be assets on the balance sheet, right!).

This means that 'performance relief' can be sought against performance regimes (Schedule 7.1 TOC on Self Delays and Cancellations come to mind). This effectively takes delays/cancellations out the equation so that performance benchmarks aren't breached (hence no contractual breach) and large penalties are avoided. I'd expect other types of relief or easement of contractual terms can also be granted if circumstances are exceptional.

If that is what Avanti are aiming for I think they are being very naive indeed. I have successfully defended lots more potentially arguable force majeure claims. It is not a strike, other than on the actual strike days obviously.

They would be much better arguing that their ability to deliver the management contract has been frustrated by the DfT not providing them with the resources to deliver the performance. That is if they pointed it out in negotiations, which I would always do in this type of situation so that in circumstances like this I can turn around and say, look we really did point this out to you at the time and you said you were happy with the risk.

 

[317 forever]

Could there be a very real possibility of LNER providing a better service between Carlisle and Scotland than both of Avanti and TPE combined this year?

Assuming the Carlisle stops become public again on LNER that is.

I've looked up Edinburgh to Carlisle for the afternoon of Sunday September 18th. I'm due to return home from Edinburgh that afternoon. Yes some LNER trains are advertised as stopping at CAR but no Advance tickets at least for now.

 

[800001]

I've looked up Edinburgh to Carlisle for the afternoon of Sunday September 18th. I'm due to return home from Edinburgh that afternoon. Yes some LNER trains are advertised as stopping at CAR but no Advance tickets at least for now.

I’ve just looked and Advance tickets for Carlisle are showing.

 

[317 forever]

I’ve just looked and Advance tickets for Carlisle are showing.

It wasn't showing on National Rail but it must be showing on some other websites now.

 

[800001]

It wasn't showing on National Rail but it must be showing on some other websites now.

I looked on LNER App

 

[AndrewE]

It wasn't showing on National Rail but it must be showing on some other websites now.

National Rail seems to have had problems today.
I tried to find Crewe to Chester trains for next week, as the Avanti Mon to Weds timetable shows nothing between 0951, 10 and 1148 and 1750.
It went into spasm, unable to show the TFW services which were (hopefully) filling in.
I guessed my mistake was asking for Thursday when the Avanti timetable hasn't been published yet, so I tried it for Weds but that didn't work either.

 

[317 forever]

National Rail seems to have had problems today.
I tried to find Crewe to Chester trains for next week, as the Avanti Mon to Weds timetable shows nothing between 0951, 10 and 1148 and 1750.
It went into spasm, unable to show the TFW services which were (hopefully) filling in.
I guessed my mistake was asking for Thursday when the Avanti timetable hasn't been published yet, so I tried it for Weds but that didn't work either.

Next Thursday, 18th, there is an RMT strike restricting services.

 

[AndrewE]

Next Thursday, 18th, there is an RMT strike restricting services.

but shouldn't it have worked for Wednesday?
(I see it does now!) As I said, "I tried it for Weds but that didn't work either."

 

[Sheridan]

A mostly smooth journey on 1A11 from Warrington Bank Quay to Euston today. The only real problem was that some seats had double reservations - presumably as this would originally have been starting from Glasgow Central but in fact started at Preston, and therefore had two RSIDs or whatever they’re called? (That’s just supposition on my part and I’m happy to be corrected). I was coming from north Wales so had the option to change at Warrington or Crewe. I specifically went for Warrington as I thought it’d be easier to get my booked seat if I got on earlier in the journey, and it’s a good job I did because the other occupant of my seat boarded at Crewe! Two first class carriages were de-classified and the TM did a great job spreading people out through the train, and there was no one standing until after Milton Keynes.

If the duplicate RSID is the issue (and as I said, it may not be), surely Avanti should be aware of this and it should be avoidable when services are re-planned at short notice?

 

[Falcon1200]

A mostly smooth journey on 1A11 from Warrington Bank Quay to Euston today. The only real problem was that some seats had double reservations - presumably as this would originally have been starting from Glasgow Central but in fact started at Preston, and therefore had two RSIDs or whatever they’re called?

In normal times (!) the first Avanti Sunday train from Glasgow to London is not until 0938, so it looks like 1A11 is always booked to start from Preston, although no doubt Avanti's current troubles, plus the aftermath of yesterday's strike, have disrupted things somewhat. Intrigued re the duplicate reservation; The displays can't show that, AFAIK ?

 

[JamieL]

Declassifying first class is a sure way to lose passengers IMHO. I often choose train because the first class compartments are normally quiet enough to work and have enough table and power sockets for that purpose. In my experience of declassifying, it turns the same compartments into loud and uncomfortable travel. If travelling between London and Scotland, what possible value does the train offer if they insist on declassifying?

 

[Sheridan]

In normal times (!) the first Avanti Sunday train from Glasgow to London is not until 0938, so it looks like 1A11 is always booked to start from Preston, although no doubt Avanti's current troubles, plus the aftermath of yesterday's strike, have disrupted things somewhat. Intrigued re the duplicate reservation; The displays can't show that, AFAIK ?

Ah so that’s not the issue then, might have been the addition of a Crewe stop?

Declassifying first class is a sure way to lose passengers IMHO. I often choose train because the first class compartments are normally quiet enough to work and have enough table and power sockets for that purpose. In my experience of declassifying, it turns the same compartments into loud and uncomfortable travel. If travelling between London and Scotland, what possible value does the train offer if they insist on declassifying?

There was still one first class and one standard premium, which I think was sufficient for that time on a Sunday.

 

[Peter0124]

What annoys me so much and yes it's a small thing is that the headcodes have all changed.

 

[D6130]

so it looks like 1A11 is always booked to start from Preston,

Yes....had it been booked to start from Glasgow it would have a 1Mxx reporting number.

According to BBC Radio 4's nine o'clock news this morning, Avanti are introducing a new emergency revised/reduced timetable this week.

 

[JamieL]

Ah so that’s not the issue then, might have been the addition of a Crewe stop?



There was still one first class and one standard premium, which I think was sufficient for that time on a Sunday.

Thanks, I missed the fact it was at a weekend. Just had a couple of bad declassified experiences in short succession now so somewhat sensitive to the issue!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The only real problem was that some seats had double reservations...

Just to be clear, are we talking about more than one reservation having been issued for the same seat for the same train AND between the same two stations?

In my (admittedly limited) experience, folk attempting to (incorrectly) claim/occupy a reserved seat have either been on the wrong train, (in your example have boarded the 1022 from Warrington to Euston but actually had a reservation for the 1120) or are on the right train but in the wrong carriage.

 

[JamieL]

According to BBC Radio 4's nine o'clock news this morning, Avanti are introducing a new emergency revised/reduced timetable this week.

Yes, they are not exactly rushing though!

Train Timetables | Train Schedule | Avanti West Coast

Plan your journey with our train timetables for services in the UK. Download train schedules at Avanti West Coast to check times & special services.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

I am traveling on Friday 19th August from Bristol to Glasgow. Currently got advanced tickets for GWR to Paddington and Avanti to Glasgow. Given how rubbish Avanti have been of late, I might just take a punt on Cross Country instead.

 

[Hadders]

Declassifying first class is a sure way to lose passengers IMHO. I often choose train because the first class compartments are normally quiet enough to work and have enough table and power sockets for that purpose. In my experience of declassifying, it turns the same compartments into loud and uncomfortable travel. If travelling between London and Scotland, what possible value does the train offer if they insist on declassifying?

First and foremost you need to move people at times of disruption.

Better to declassify 1st class to make sure everyone gets in and can travel rather than keeping 1st class intact but leaving people behind.

 

[Huntergreed]

I am traveling on Friday 19th August from Bristol to Glasgow. Currently got advanced tickets for GWR to Paddington and Avanti to Glasgow. Given how rubbish Avanti have been of late, I might just take a punt on Cross Country instead.

At the end of last week, Avanti’s Glasgow service was actually quite reliable - so you never know!

You can bet it’ll be a 9-car, they seem to love sending them to Scotland and putting the 11 car’s on the shorter runs!

 

[185143]

Declassifying first class is a sure way to lose passengers IMHO. I often choose train because the first class compartments are normally quiet enough to work and have enough table and power sockets for that purpose. In my experience of declassifying, it turns the same compartments into loud and uncomfortable travel. If travelling between London and Scotland, what possible value does the train offer if they insist on declassifying?

As is leaving people on the platform/standing for 4 hours! All of the railway's competition guarantees you a seat, with the exception of local bus services and may be much cheaper in the case of a coach, or possibly quicker if you fly.

Unfortunately, and this isn't aimed at you personally, a seat at a table in first class is exactly that. Not your private office, as nice as it certainly can be to have half the carriage to yourself!

 

[karlbbb]

I was on the 1307 Euston - Lime St. on Friday. Car C had non-functioning climate control apparently, the journey was well booked, and the train manager declassified the train shortly after Euston to allow some of the standing passengers to sit down, mentioning there'd no longer be any first class service (I'm assuming he meant food/drink). We were in Car B, but unfortunately on the "sunny side" of the carriage and the air conditioning was barely keeping the cabin cool, let alone next to the blind that doesn't go all the way down

The 1537 return journey was mentioned in the Liverpool Echo as being an "oven" and had a woman stripped down to her bra, apparently!

 

[Horizon22]

Thanks Clarence Yard. It really is starting to sound like the balance of responsibility lies with the DfT here if they are baking all this into the contracts.

Is this all down to one or two incompetent civil servants who thought they were being clever ‘reducing costs’ by forcing TOCs to lean on rest day working etc without realising the chaos they were about to cause?

Also, the DfT is publicly calling for more flexiblility from rail workers, which I take to mean contracting Sundays etc. At the same time they seem to be baking into contractual arrangements an over reliance on rest day working through the whole week. Is that not a complete contradiction?

It will be sort of interesting to see what happens when the schools go back but it is also damning what is happening at the moment. Summer happens every year. Fair enough there has been some impact from Covid but it sounds like the biggest culpability here is with the DfT.

There's a multitude of elements, but blame certain lies more with the DfT who seem to know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Understanding only the short-term costs and not the medium/long-term benefit of resolving the staffing issues. There have also been some unavoidable delays such as driver training and recruitment bottlenecks.

For the 1000th time, ASLEF are more than happy to have Sundays within the working week, but if it becomes officially part of the roster, than means an increase in driver establishement and probably a pay increase as well. Therefore more costs, but the DfT want to have their cake and eat it. So yes, it is a contradiction.

You have a vast majority of drivers refusing to do RDW which may or may not be co-ordinated and, although it might be somewhat underhand, as far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong/illegal with saying you're not available to come in on your day off. Most TOCs and rostering / resourcing staff have a general idea of what % of their staff will always do overtime and what % might do it at a push. Suffice to say those %s have probably gone to near zero at Avanti.

 

[JamieL]

As is leaving people on the platform/standing for 4 hours! All of the railway's competition guarantees you a seat, with the exception of local bus services and may be much cheaper in the case of a coach, or possibly quicker if you fly.

Unfortunately, and this isn't aimed at you personally, a seat at a table in first class is exactly that. Not your private office, as nice as it certainly can be to have half the carriage to yourself!

I suppose it illuminates the dichotomy in the railways - what is the purpose of first class? I don't want to derail this thread so will do a search and see if there are other threads out there to discuss.

 

[modernrail]

Declassifying first class is a sure way to lose passengers IMHO. I often choose train because the first class compartments are normally quiet enough to work and have enough table and power sockets for that purpose. In my experience of declassifying, it turns the same compartments into loud and uncomfortable travel. If travelling between London and Scotland, what possible value does the train offer if they insist on declassifying?

It is actually even worse that this. The booking engine is forcing people to buy standard premium or first class fares if they want to travel at all as standard is showing as sold out. Most people can’t afford them but are being forced into them if they need to travel. They are then getting on trains where first class is being declassified. Imagine how those passengers feel after being forced to spend silly amounts and then watching as the carriage fills with passengers displaced from cancelled services etc.

I assume they can claim a refund on the first class part of their fare? But that is really unclear - no announcements were made on the trains I have travelled on where first class has been declassified.

Those passengers plus normal first class passengers hace every right to be completely cheesed off.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes....had it been booked to start from Glasgow it would have a 1Mxx reporting number.

According to BBC Radio 4's nine o'clock news this morning, Avanti are introducing a new emergency revised/reduced timetable this week.

the new timetable started today.

 

[bethr_20]

I was supposed to be travelling from Milton Keynes to Glasgow on Tuesday (16/8), to then catch an onward flight to Spain on Wednesday morning. Suffice to say, our train was 'cancelled' and our money was refunded. We paid £58 for 3 one-way tickets (our return flight is back into London), with 2x 16-25 railcards and 1 child fare; this train was supposed to be direct into Glasgow, leaving shortly before midday, and take just over 4 hours.
Avanti offered us another 'suitable' train - which would be arriving into Glasgow at 11pm - whereby we would have to get off of the exact train which was continuing up to Glasgow anyway, then at Crewe we'd change onto another service to Preston, then get back onto a third train up to Glasgow! That would take over 5 hours, and they were expecting us to pay £184 for it, due to the "short notice of the service"!

In the end, we accepted the refund and opted for the Caledonian Sleeper instead, which was over £60 cheaper and gave us a bed (seat) for the night, which further reduced the price as otherwise we'd have to pay £50+ for a hotel on top of the astronomically expensive train fare.

Never had a bad experience with Avanti before now, but this one has definitely left a sour taste in my mouth.

 

[Sankey Wire]

I am travelling from Bank Quay to London on Thursday, returning Saturday (unavoidable timing!). Does anyone know how busy the strike-day services have been?