Avanti West Coast New Stock - Hitachi chosen

[yorkie]

Can we please stay on topic in this thread. I have removed some posts that were on the subject of whether or not HS2 should go ahead. If anyone spots an off topic post please use the report button.

Please do not reply to, or re-publish off topic posts in the wrong thread. Thanks

 

[greatvoyager]

I'm keen to find out how many pantograph & transformer cars the 7 car electric set will have and the number of traction bogies. And whether there will be a "donkey" engine to maintain hotel power and limp home capabiity or perhaps batteries? Hopefully front and rear pan cars like the 800/801/802 and 5 powered vehicles would be more than sufficient whereas one pan car in car 4 and all the rest powered and it could take on a Javelin and win- a bit of overkill.

I would imagine that they will stick to the layout of other 80x units and have the pantographs on the driving cars. The general layout seems to be to have a proportionate amount of motor vehicles, with 3 in a 5-car, and 5 in a 9-car, could the use 4 in a 7-car?

 

[Bald Rick]

While I agree there is concern, I think the lower top speed will be countered by the faster acceleration.

It won’t be, as discussed previously. Acceleration helps when the train is having to do it. On the core WCML (Euston - Weaver Jn), they won’t be doing much of that.

On the current linespeed profile, a 390 without tilt compared to a 390 will lose between 2-3 minutes south of Rugby, another 4 minutes or so from Rugby to Crewe, and a minute from Crewe to Weaver Jn. There’s no way acceleration from Euston, and 2/3 stops south of Crewe can pull that back.

There are some stretches where the non-EPS linespeed could be raised without much in the way of physical work, but it will need a lot of study and paperwork to resolve. If the curving rules for these trains (and presumably the new 125mph LNWR stock) was to be relaxed to the exceptional level 6 degrees of cant deficiency, then some more could be squeezed out. But hold on to your drinks.

 

[greatvoyager]

It won’t be, as discussed previously. Acceleration helps when the train is having to do it. On the core WCML (Euston - Weaver Jn), they won’t be doing much of that.

On the current linespeed profile, a 390 without tilt compared to a 390 will lose between 2-3 minutes south of Rugby, another 4 minutes or so from Rugby to Crewe, and a minute from Crewe to Weaver Jn. There’s no way acceleration from Euston, and 2/3 stops south of Crewe can pull that back.

There are some stretches where the non-EPS linespeed could be raised without much in the way of physical work, but it will need a lot of study and paperwork to resolve. If the curving rules for these trains (and presumably the new 125mph LNWR stock) was to be relaxed to the exceptional level 6 degrees of cant deficiency, then some more could be squeezed out. But hold on to your drinks.

Isn't there a requirement to add more stops at stations such as Milton Keynes, which I would imagine would be added on the services that the AT300s are going to take over?

 

[Bald Rick]

Isn't there a requirement to add more stops at stations such as Milton Keynes, which I would imagine would be added on the services that the AT300s are going to take over?

On the Liverpools, yes, but it really won’t make much difference.

In addition, dwell times on the new trains are likely to be longer, albeit probably not timetabled as such.

 

[greatvoyager]

On the Liverpools, yes, but it really won’t make much difference.

In addition, dwell times on the new trains are likely to be longer, albeit probably not timetabled as such.

Are the dwell times going to be longer than on the Voyagers, which are known for their long dwell times?

 

[Bald Rick]

Are the dwell times going to be longer than on the Voyagers, which are known for their long dwell times?

More people, fewer doors... it’s logic!

 

[greatvoyager]

More people, fewer doors... it’s logic!

They'll have the same amount of doors, four on each carriage though.

 

[Bald Rick]

They'll have the same amount of doors, four on each carriage though.

Not on the 7 coach trains compared to a 9 car pendolino.

 

[greatvoyager]

Not on the 7 coach trains compared to a 9 car pendolino.

As there are 23 trains, which is only an increase of 3 over the current fleet, I would've thought that was some replacement of diesel under the wires on some routes though, as 221 used to do the London-Birmingham-Scotland route as well.

 

[The Ham]

As there are 23 trains, which is only an increase of 3 over the current fleet, I would've thought that was some replacement of diesel under the wires on some routes though, as 221 used to do the London-Birmingham-Scotland route as well.

Although not all trains are created equal when it comes to capacity:
5+5 Voyager - 502 seats
9 coach 390 - 469 seats
11 coach 390 - 589 seats
5 coach 80x - circa 315 seats
9 coach 80x - circa 630 seats

Assuming that the 7 coach trains are half way between a 5 and 9 coach train in terms of capacity is likely to have 472 seats which would mean that it has 5% fewer seats than a pair of Voyagers. However with the ability to move throughout the whole train there's less risk of one half being full and the other less so. As such the risk of people not finding a seat is reduced.

As such a 7 coach train is likely to be a good replacement for the running of pairs of Voyagers. As such I'd suggest that it's not unreasonable to count each 7 coach unit as the equivalent to 2 voyagers.

When you do that the capacity increase of the new fleet is quite significant.

 

[greatvoyager]

Although not all trains are created equal when it comes to capacity:
5+5 Voyager - 502 seats
9 coach 390 - 469 seats
11 coach 390 - 589 seats
5 coach 80x - circa 315 seats
9 coach 80x - circa 630 seats

Assuming that the 7 coach trains are half way between a 5 and 9 coach train in terms of capacity is likely to have 472 seats which would mean that it has 5% fewer seats than a pair of Voyagers. However with the ability to move throughout the whole train there's less risk of one half being full and the other less so. As such the risk of people not finding a seat is reduced.

As such a 7 coach train is likely to be a good replacement for the running of pairs of Voyagers. As such I'd suggest that it's not unreasonable to count each 7 coach unit as the equivalent to 2 voyagers.

When you do that the capacity increase of the new fleet is quite significant.

According to post #205 on this thread, the 7-car AT300 will have 453 seats, so not that much off a 9-car pendolino.

 

[The Ham]

According to post #205 on this thread, the 7-car AT300 will have 453 seats, so not that much off a 9-car pendolino.

Thanks, I knew I'd seen the figure but couldn't find it. It sets them 10% lower than a pair of 221's, but the point is still that those 7 coach trains will be mostly adequate for replacing a pair of 221's and where they're not there's the option of running a pair of 80x's.

 

[greatvoyager]

Thanks, I knew I'd seen the figure but couldn't find it. It sets them 10% lower than a pair of 221's, but the point is still that those 7 coach trains will be mostly adequate for replacing a pair of 221's and where they're not there's the option of running a pair of 80x's.

No problem, the 7-cars will definitely help with capacity and I imagine they could run a pair 5-cars if needed (if there will be any spares from the North Wales route.

 

[The Ham]

No problem, the 7-cars will definitely help with capacity and I imagine they could run a pair 5-cars if needed (if there will be any spares from the North Wales route).

Assuming that we accept that a single 7 coach units (453 seats) provide adequate capacity to replace a pair of Voyagers (502 seats, so a shortfall of 49 seats), then whilst in terms of total units 20 units to 23 units isn't much of a change, it is likely that is going to go from ~10 diagrams (with the 221's running in pairs) to ~16 diagrams (assuming that the 5 coach units are run in pairs). That's an increase of diagrams of 60%.

Whilst some of those diagrams will be required for the new services, it is clear that the new fleet will provide more extra capacity than would be indicated by the extra number of units.

However, when you look at the total number of seats available on those services the new trains will provide many more seats, currently the 20*221's provide 5,020 seats. Whilst the new fleet would have 8,625 seats. That's an increase in fleet seating of 3,605 seats (+71.8%).

That's quite a bit more extra capacity than the 3 extra units would otherwise indicated.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can't see many 2x221 formations being replaced by 7-car electric AT300s.
Most of the doubling up is on peak Chester/North Wales trains, so they will go to 2x5-car bimode AT300s.
The 7-car AT300s will apparently replace 390s (and a few 221s) on London-Birmingham/Liverpool routes.
The 221s (mostly single) on London-Birmingham-Scotland will be replaced by the 390s cascaded from Birmingham/Liverpool.
Avanti have said the AT300s won't work north of Preston (so maybe to Blackpool).

 

[greatvoyager]

I can't see many 2x221 formations being replaced by 7-car electric AT300s.
Most of the doubling up is on peak Chester/North Wales trains, so they will go to 2x5-car bimode AT300s.
The 7-car AT300s will apparently replace 390s (and a few 221s) on London-Birmingham/Liverpool routes.
The 221s (mostly single) on London-Birmingham-Scotland will be replaced by the 390s cascaded from Birmingham/Liverpool.
Avanti have said the AT300s won't work north of Preston (so maybe to Blackpool).

So looks like a mix of increasing and decreasing formation, depending on whether they replace pendolino or voyager diagrams.

 

[RealTrains07]

Confirmed!

The Avanti Hitachi units will be numbered class 805001 - 013 for the bi modes and 807001 - 010 for the electric sets

source: Rail Magazine

 

[KashmireHawker]

From RAIL Magazine:

Confirmed by Avanti Wes that its Hitachi IETs, which will be assembled at Newton Aycliffe, will be numbered 805001-013 for the bi-modes and 807001-010 for the seven car electric sets.

AWC says the Pendolinos are also about to start receiving AWC's new livery as well.

 

[Energy]

Will the 807s have a single diesel backup like the 801s or battery like the 803s? Im guessing battery or no backup as the pendolinos don't have a backup.

 

[TRAX]

Oh they’ve fired up the random number generator again.

 

[Mikey C]

Are the Avanti IETs that different from the regular ones that they need their own number, rather than a sub type?

It's as if because they expanded the database into the 7** and 8** numbers they feel they can give any old subtype a new number!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are the Avanti IETs that different from the regular ones that they need their own number, rather than a sub type?

It's as if because they expanded the database into the 7** and 8** numbers they feel they can give any old subtype a new number!

To be fair, other than whatever HS2 gets there isn't likely to be anything else in the 8xx range for a long time. The only other 2010s high speed EMU has gone into the 3xx range (397), I'll admit I was surprised that didn't get an 8xx number.

 

[Rick1984]

So they've missed 804 and 806 for some reason?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

So they've missed 804 and 806 for some reason?

5-car (805) and 7-car (807)? 804 I think was going to be the EMR new trains but was changed to 810.

 

[hwl]

5-car (805) and 7-car (807)? 804 I think was going to be the EMR new trains but was changed to 810.

Also the First Group East Coast open access units and potential LNER follow on units (potentially 10 car) needing numbers too.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The class number appears to reflect the train length (by accident or design).

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Also the First Group East Coast open access units and potential LNER follow on units (potentially 10 car) needing numbers too.

First Group's open access service is classified as 803. LNER's new orders maybe classified as one of them yes.

 

[rdlover777]

First of the new trains has arrived in the UK

FIRST PICTURE: Avanti West Coast's new Hitachi trains begin to arrive in UK

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

First of the new trains has arrived in the UK

Wow, that was surprisingly quick - less than a year since the ink on the contract even dried!