Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

[Skie]

Makes me wonder if they'll be holding off on the full refurb until they know what the seating layout should be based on take-up of this. In normal times if this was successful I could see a reduction in first with 2 carriages (a 1st and a standard) given a 'tables everywhere' approach with better legroom and nicer seat covers to support this product. No chance I'd go for this if it was £25+paying over the odds for crap microwaved bacon barms, they'd need to keep the 1st class kitchen.

COVID has really disrupted any ability to gauge demand, and it'll have a long term impact on passenger numbers even if it does get 'better' over the next 6 months.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Makes me wonder if they'll be holding off on the full refurb until they know what the seating layout should be based on take-up of this. In normal times if this was successful I could see a reduction in first with 2 carriages (a 1st and a standard) given a 'tables everywhere' approach with better legroom and nicer seat covers to support this product.

That's not the point! The point is First Class seating with no additional service. Same as Eurostar, or Weekend First - a leisure or self-upgrade product.

What you're talking about is the "Silver Standard" model which is different.

 

[Skie]

That's not the point! The point is First Class seating with no additional service. Same as Eurostar, or Weekend First - a leisure or self-upgrade product.

What you're talking about is the "Silver Standard" model which is different.

Yes, but they're due a refurb and they pretty much can do anything with the seating/layout or service level. We dont know what the "point" is at the moment, as this is a trial (with a few surveys floating around, too) and they might decide to give more luggage racks window seats for all we know and charge it as "Premium Luggage".

 

[Scotrail314209]

We have to bare in mind that we can't really compare Standard Premium to Eurostar's Standard Premier (they sound very similar).

Eurostar's Standard Premier offers a light meal, snacks and drinks, when Avanti's will just be the comfier seat and table.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We have to bare in mind that we can't really compare Standard Premium to Eurostar's Standard Premier (they sound very similar).

They're very comparable.

Eurostar's Standard Premier offers a light meal, snacks and drinks, when Avanti's will just be the comfier seat and table.

True, but it's still a market split on First Class aimed more at those paying for it themselves. Avanti offer a light meal, snacks and drinks in "proper" 1st, so it had to fit "lower" than that. Whereas E* offer a bigger meal in "proper" 1st.

 

[Wolfie]

That's not the point! The point is First Class seating with no additional service. Same as Eurostar, or Weekend First - a leisure or self-upgrade product.

What you're talking about is the "Silver Standard" model which is different.

That's not actually wholly correct with respect to Eurostar. You do get a light meal in Standard Premier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's not actually wholly correct with respect to Eurostar. You do get a light meal in Standard Premier.

Fair. However, Eurostar's Business Premier offers a far higher level of service. The point is that both are First Class seating products i.e. 2+1 layout, but with reduced service, to appeal to a market (leisure and self-upgrade) which is not quite as flush with cash as the market for the "top" class. In essence it's price differentiation which should ensure that most people who do pay for "full" 1st still do.

The other way of doing it is the Silver Standard model, which involves Standard style seating (maybe a bit better but still 2+2) but the full First Class style service. That clearly isn't what they're aiming at, and I think the market for that would be much smaller, and it would require converting a 1st coach to "Standard" to achieve it.

That model isn't completely flawed - indeed, it's a model sort-of used by Trenitalia on Le Frecce - but I'm unconvinced it would work well here.

 

[Wolfie]

Fair. However, Eurostar's Business Premier offers a far higher level of service. The point is that both are First Class seating products i.e. 2+1 layout, but with reduced service, to appeal to a market (leisure and self-upgrade) which is not quite as flush with cash as the market for the "top" class. In essence it's price differentiation which should ensure that most people who do pay for "full" 1st still do.

The other way of doing it is the Silver Standard model, which involves Standard style seating (maybe a bit better but still 2+2) but the full First Class style service. That clearly isn't what they're aiming at, and I think the market for that would be much smaller, and it would require converting a 1st coach to "Standard" to achieve it.

That model isn't completely flawed - indeed, it's a model sort-of used by Trenitalia on Le Frecce - but I'm unconvinced it would work well here.

Thanks for a comprehensive response.

 

[Scotrail314209]

One positive thing is, it slightly reduces staff workload a little bit.

Prior to COVID at the weekend a sole catering member had to serve tea, coffee and snacks to 4 coaches of First Class (3 on the 9 cars).

This only gives them 3 or 2 dependent on the train, which means they have less carriages to serve.

However, the workload does increase slightly for the staff member located in Coach C, who has to deliver food to seats if the passenger requests it. The way Avanti are sounding it with priority at-seat ordering, is that it will be rolled out to Standard class too but Standard Premium will get theirs first.

So this might mean that there won’t be a reduction of staff, but instead an increase as the sole catering staff member in the Shop cannot do that on their own.

 

[Tallguy]

Actually the food tends to be better in Premium Economy but the drinks generally not.

On BA it’s he same food as economy but you get served first

 

[Wolfie]

On BA it’s he same food as economy but you get served first

Interesting. That wasn't the case several years ago so represents a definite downgrade.

 

[cactustwirly]

On BA it’s he same food as economy but you get served first

But you also have proper crockery and cutlery, and not just a plastic tray

 

[CheshireCrusty]

I think Covid will completely invalidate any effective market testing of the product until at least 2022 (my virologist friends say it is likely to take up to a year to suppress Covid even with a full scale vaccination program). During this period and for some time after it is likely that any journey particularly those involving high risk Covid areas will be actively discouraged:

Businesses and public bodies will have to risk assess any journeys they request/require staff to undertake.​

Social and leisure journeys using public transport will be discouraged.​

All this means greater seat spacing will be sought for any journey with airline seating preferred over table seats (unless sole occupancy by one household) and caution will exercised over accepting food and drink offerings.

Interesting as well that the experiment is being trialed on the "short haul" section (no further North than Wolverhampton) of AWC. I think this has a completely different demand characteristic than the longer routes (particularly Preston and North) where the demand for a premium offering on the same train is likely to be less price sensitive and more driven by the product offering and the availability of discounts and special offers which require travel time flexibility being designed to boost premium offerings on off-peak services. Manchester and Liverpool falling somewhere in between the two.

I also wonder how they will manage coach H on the 9 coach Edinburgh-Birmingham-London services?

​

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[RailWonderer]

I find it strange Avanti are introducing this at such a time. If the service is very busy and there aren't any available standard seats I want to sit in for an extended period of time I would consider it. Otherwise a big draw to first for me was the free refershments, which justified some of the upgrade price. A better seat is not enough in itself for such a hike. It depends on the premium and the busyness of the train. Until everything is completely back to normal I doubt I will use it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find it strange Avanti are introducing this at such a time.

It's a franchise commitment. OK, I know, franchises are dead or dying, but for now they basically have to do it.

A better seat is not enough in itself for such a hike.

For many of us it is. If it's rolled out more widely, and at the price levels currently being talked about (basically Weekend First rate, near enough), and it is a walk-up fare and does not require advance booking (i.e. is not quota-controlled beyond there only being 46 seats; making it compulsory reservation but reservations available right up to travel might be quite a good idea), I shall be using it for every journey.

They don't need every Standard passenger to use it, it wouldn't work then. They just want about 46 people per train to use it (that's the capacity of coach G) and I think they'll easily get near that.

 

[Tallguy]

But you also have proper crockery and cutlery, and not just a plastic tray

Nope. Comes out of the same food cart. It’s been proper cutlery for years too.

Interesting. That wasn't the case several years ago so represents a definite downgrade.

On EVA Air, TUI, Thomas Cook Airlines and Virgin it’s always beeN different food, not seen different food on BA in a very long time.

 

[TheBigD]

On BA it’s he same food as economy but you get served first

On my last 3 trips (Oct 2019 and Mar 2020) with BA in premium economy, the main course has always been from business class. You get three options to choose from. There has also been a hot bread roll run with the meal as well. You also get a better pillow+blanket and a crap amenity kit.

BA revamped their premium economy offering from summer 2019.

Maybe this could be a discussed further in the aviation thread...

 

[Butts]

Can we not just go back to being conveyed in empty First Class Carriages having paid a minimal Advanced Fare and necking copious quantities of Complimentary Scotch

If it aint broke....

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can we not just go back to being conveyed in empty First Class Carriages having paid a minimal Advanced Fare and necking copious quantities of Complimentary Scotch

If it aint broke...

Indeed if it ain’t broke, but that format would have left the TOCs broke certainly

 

[philosopher]

It's a franchise commitment. OK, I know, franchises are dead or dying, but for now they basically have to do it.

Being a bit cynical here. If for some reason they wanted it fail, now would be the time to test it out. Not only are very few travelling, particularly from London, there is less of an incentive to upgrade for space reasons given virtually all passengers will have two or more seats to themselves.

 

[Wolfie]

Being a bit cynical here. If for some reason they wanted it fail, now would be the time to test it out. Not only are very few travelling, particularly from London, there is less of an incentive to upgrade for space reasons given virtually all passengers will have two or more seats to themselves.

Sounds about right....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Being a bit cynical here. If for some reason they wanted it fail, now would be the time to test it out. Not only are very few travelling, particularly from London, there is less of an incentive to upgrade for space reasons given virtually all passengers will have two or more seats to themselves.

I'm not sure why they would want it to fail.

 

[Ianno87]

Being a bit cynical here. If for some reason they wanted it fail, now would be the time to test it out. Not only are very few travelling, particularly from London, there is less of an incentive to upgrade for space reasons given virtually all passengers will have two or more seats to themselves.

Or introduce it now, with fewer top-whack First Class ticket payers to piss off about having their seating capacity reduced.

 

[stj]

Going forward to post Covid I doubt First Class will ever return to a viable level so seats need to be filled or removed

 

[Merle Haggard]

I can see a few snags...
Before Covid, coach G in the 11 cars had (almost always) no reserved seats. Travelling fairly regularly, I have noticed that a particular service would not always be formed of 11 (or 9, for that matter), sometimes it would be the alternative. Because G is un-reserved, the replacement of 11 by 9 doesn't create a reservation problem (though it's sometimes hard to find an un-reserved seat), If the reservations were based on an 11 car and a 9 car was used, it would not be simple to just move the standard premium reservations from G to H, because the latter would have reservations for full 1st class passengers.
9 cars usually do not have reservations in coach K. This change would presumably leave the possibility of no unreserved seats in first, but possibly reservation only is seen as the way forward. Don't ever get delayed before you reach the railway, though.
All routes apart from Manchester and Liverpool have services operated by Voyagers. Would that mean these aren't available to standard premium passengers? There doesn't seem to have been mention of using the coach next to the DMF for standard premium, although it is sometimes laid for first in double Voyager workings.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I can see a few snags...
Before Covid, coach G in the 11 cars had (almost always) no reserved seats. Travelling fairly regularly, I have noticed that a particular service would not always be formed of 11 (or 9, for that matter), sometimes it would be the alternative. Because G is un-reserved, the replacement of 11 by 9 doesn't create a reservation problem (though it's sometimes hard to find an un-reserved seat), If the reservations were based on an 11 car and a 9 car was used, it would not be simple to just move the standard premium reservations from G to H, because the latter would have reservations for full 1st class passengers.
9 cars usually do not have reservations in coach K. This change would presumably leave the possibility of no unreserved seats in first, but possibly reservation only is seen as the way forward. Don't ever get delayed before you reach the railway, though.
All routes apart from Manchester and Liverpool have services operated by Voyagers. Would that mean these aren't available to standard premium passengers? There doesn't seem to have been mention of using the coach next to the DMF for standard premium, although it is sometimes laid for first in double Voyager workings.

Yep, Coach K on the 9 car is unreservable, but on the 11 car the two table seats in K are reservable.

The voyager composite coach is now completely standard class.

It looks like Voyager services won’t have Standard Premium as they look to be targeting the busier Pendolino services.

Also I believe Coach H on the 9 cars will be their Standard Premium Coach.

So unless they convert Coach G to standard and have Coach H as Standard Premium on the 11 cars, I can’t see any workaround for the snags.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It looks like Voyager services won’t have Standard Premium as they look to be targeting the busier Pendolino services.

Not enough 1st for it on Voyagers, only about 1.5 coaches on a double set.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What is everybody’s thoughts on this?

Standard Premium | Avanti West Coast

Introducing our brand new onboard offering - Standard Premium Class. Upgrade from Standard and treat yourself to a few added extras on your next journey.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

My immediate concern would be, are they are going to reserve a coach exclusively for standard premium passengers. If so, that presumably means trains would be divided into three mutually exclusive areas that you have to confine yourself to based on your ticket type (standard coaches, the standard premium coach, and first coaches) - where currently there is just standard and first. That's not helpful from the point of view of the convenience of just being able to hop on the nearest coach and find a seat you like.

 

[_toommm_]

If anyone is wondering, the upgrade costs are on brfares.com - Sesrch for the journey you wish to make (without Railcards) and toward the bottom there’s a fare called ‘Premium STD’ and ‘W/E Premium STD’.

For example, Crewe to Euston is £25 on weekdays and £20 on weekends:

 

[Vespa]

I've always preferred to travel First Class with all the trimmings, Premium offerings doesn't cut it for me, you may as well have a shower wearing a raincoat for all the good it does for me.

For it to work you would need a separate coach to provide a clear distinction between 1st Class and Premium.

As to the website, as mentioned before is still. ery poor and still no seat selector that I can see.

Avanti needs to buck up their game.