Avantix replacement (previously: Arriva ditch Avantix)

[Wallsendmag]

Yup...If you don't have a CCST Printer paired with the phone, it won't display any fares that need to be issued on encoded stock.

Not quite true DORIS can ToD said tickets

 

[CyrusWuff]

Not quite true DORIS can ToD said tickets

I was referring to STAR Mobile, which is what CrossCountry (along with rest of the Arriva Trains UK group) are moving to, given that was what ollieb mentioned.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I was referring to STAR Mobile, which is what CrossCountry (along with rest of the Arriva Trains UK group) are moving to, given that was what ollieb mentioned.

Ah OK that makes sense , inferior product and all that


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[johntea]

Unbelievable TOCs such as Northern are "working on" reducing the ticket size. Surely this should have been sorted before rolling the product out in the first place!

 

[Matt Taylor]

Envoy is starting to settle down on SWT, I've just had six consecutive successful shifts! By that I mean six shifts where I've been able to to use Envoy on all sectors of the duty.

 

[rishtonlad]

Of the few guards I have spoken to on Northern, they do not like it. As they find it to slow.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Unbelievable TOCs such as Northern are "working on" reducing the ticket size. Surely this should have been sorted before rolling the product out in the first place!

According to some who were involved in the process of 'bringing them online', for Northern, the Paper Roll Tickets (PRT) were meant to be plain white (and "a lot shorter"), but then they were convinced the PRT would that way a couple of months after it was clear, from a thread on here, that they would not be.

An update is due in January apparently, not only to shorten the tickets (by removing the superfluous NRCoC/NRCoT printed text), but also make them more reliable. Ticket size should be reduced by about 33%, bringing them down to about twice the size of CCST and still making them unable to open ticket barriers or properly fit in ticket wallets.

Of the few guards I have spoken to on Northern, they do not like it. As they find it to slow.

Staff, Passengers, the only people who seem to be happy with them are manglement, despite revenue reportedly being massively down at some train crew depots. Manglement have used a number of excuses to try to convince staff that STARMobile is the best thing since best things were invented, but have also claimed that they have no control over what is used as Arriva Trains UK have apparently told them that the only option they have is STARMobile with PRT, so we'll just have to put up with it.

 

[crehld]

I have not been sold a ticket on board when leaving Hellifield since early December. Everytime we're told it's because the 'ticket machine isn't working'. The timing nicely coincides with the introduction of the new system, but maybe I'm being far to cynical.....

Anyway I've reacquainted myself with the excess fares window at Leeds station. I had the good fortune to spend 40 minutes (!!) queuing there today (a delay repay claim will be going in). The new system is in use there. Staff appear to have no idea how the new system works. I'm guessing rather than in depth meaningful training, they've gone for the "here you go, best of British luck to you" approach. Anyway, my request was rather simple: two off-peak day returns from Hellifield to Leeds, one with a Dales Railcard, one without. This was much more complicated on the new system than it should be. Apparently the system isn't set up to cope with multiple tickets when one person has a railcard and the other does not, so the two tickets had to be done as separate transactions. Also the option for the Dales railcard was hidden away behind several screens, rather than under the more obvious 'Railcard' option. This was further exacerbated by the fact I presented the exact fare for both ticlkets (in this case £16.95), something which really confused the person behind the glass who couldn't fathom why I would present 95 pence, rather than a pound coin and receive 5 pence in return. I spent at least five minutes engaging in a transaction which any normal ticket office would spend no more than 30 seconds processing. Of course then, with foot-long tickets in hand, I then have to wait even further to get through the solitary gate where assistance is available.

 

[Haywain]

Manglement have used a number of excuses to try to convince staff that STARMobile is the best thing since best things were invented, but have also claimed that they have no control over what is used as Arriva Trains UK have apparently told them that the only option they have is STARMobile with PRT, so we'll just have to put up with it.

If Arriva, as a group, is tied in to using Fujitsu then it doesn't have a lot of choice in where to go for an Avantix replacement. It may also be that it could have used Envoy but feels that Star is better. Whichever is the case, they didn't have a big market to choose from - it was Envoy or Starmobile. Ironically, more of a choice than VTEC had but something VTEC may be grateful for.

 

[Haywain]

Unbelievable TOCs such as Northern are "working on" reducing the ticket size. Surely this should have been sorted before rolling the product out in the first place!

The ticket size is a result of needing to meet the RSP specification for tickets in order to receive accreditiation for the TIS (ticket issuing system). The specification for PRT is being changed and will result on tickets being about a third shorter. However, at present TfL will not accept anything that cannot got through the mark 1 Cubic barrier (which cannot be modified to have a barcode reader), so cross-London tickets and Travelcards can only be issued on CCST. PlusBus is likely to be accepted on PRT in the near future as the level of opposition is lower where the mark 1 human eyeball is concerned!

 

[sheff1]

So what happens if someone boards at, say, Swinton when the booking office is closed and they want a ticket to Southampton via London ?

* Told to buy the ticket at Sheffield without any payment being taken on the train?

* Sold a ticket to Sheffield (from where the fare to Southampton is the same) ? In this case would the payment be offset at Sheffield booking office.

* Sold a through ticket anyway, only to be refused travel at Kings X St P underground station ?

* Something else ?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So what happens if someone boards at, say, Swinton when the booking office is closed and they want a ticket to Southampton via London ?

* Told to buy the ticket at Sheffield without any payment being taken on the train?

* Sold a ticket to Sheffield (from where the fare to Southampton is the same) ? In this case would the payment be offset at Sheffield booking office.

* Sold a through ticket anyway, only to be refused travel at Kings X St P underground station ?

* Something else ?

• Probably.
  
• Possibly and yes in theory.
  
• Not on STAR Mobile, the machines automatically change the destination to 'London Terminals'.
  
• There's always the option of something else.

 

[iknowyeah]

A couple of points, on STARmobile, selling two tickets, one with a railcard and one without, is simple, it's just the printing that takes a while. I'd wager the training wasn't up to scratch.
We've been told if selling a ticket through London, to sell it to London Terminals, and tell them to go to the ticket office or find the guard on the London service to excess it

 

[Andrew32]

I've been using STAR for just short of a month and am getting used to it the more I use it.

The only problem is the processing and printing speeds.

The queues at the end of platform one in Leeds yesterday were massive, I was working Skipton to Leeds on two occasions yesterday and each time I didn't get out of the first carriage due to the slowness of the device, with advantix I had no problems getting down a four car 333.

I hope that the update in January speeds things up or there is going to be big problems in regards to lost revenue, advantix is obsolete as of Saturday and only ten STAR units will be available for conductors at Leeds at the start of the new year.

In regards to the gentleman who can never get a ticket from Hellifield, I've never had a problem selling anyone a ticket either using advantix or STAR, even when working a packed 144 so find it hard to understand why the guard can't sell you a ticket on every occasion.

 

[sheff1]

We've been told if selling a ticket through London, to sell it to London Terminals, and tell them to go to the ticket office or find the guard on the London service to excess it

Which is very poor indeed. Palm off the problem to another TOC because Northern can't be bothered to provide proper ticket issuing facilities (where have we heard that before !!)

And what if the guard on the next train is unwilling to do the excess ? In my example a Swinton to Southampton Super Off Peak Return is £97.90. Swinton to London is £74.50. I would not be at all surprised if the EMT guard told the passenger to sort it out at St Pancras. By then the excess would be an 'over distance' one after the journey on the ticket was complete and I am sure I have read on here that such things are not allowed. Hence the passenger would probably be told to go over to Waterloo (paying again on the tube) where they would be offered a London to Southampton Off Peak return at £43.80 giving an overpayment of more than £20 plus tube fares to try and get back from the less than entirely competent Northern Customer Services.

Frankly, if I was in this position and a guard could not issue a bog standard ticket for the journey I wished to make I would be politely declining the offer of any fudge and insist on buying the ticket at the first available opportunity from someone who could actually sell it.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The entire thing sounds like the best advert for staffed booking offices Iv read in ages.

Maybe in the ticketing guide thread we should have a list of TOCs that still print onto ticket stock onboard? This will avoid countless threads asking/finding out what to do Re a cross London transfer etc.

 

[maniacmartin]

Not only will this cause extra workload for the Londonbound Intercity staff, it may also result in revenue loss for the connecting TOC the other side of London. This is because it is widely believed on this forum that excesses don't go through ORCATS and the money is just kept by the TOC hat issued the excess.

 

[Clip]

The ticket size is a result of needing to meet the RSP specification for tickets in order to receive accreditiation for the TIS (ticket issuing system). The specification for PRT is being changed and will result on tickets being about a third shorter. However, at present TfL will not accept anything that cannot got through the mark 1 Cubic barrier (which cannot be modified to have a barcode reader), so cross-London tickets and Travelcards can only be issued on CCST. PlusBus is likely to be accepted on PRT in the near future as the level of opposition is lower where the mark 1 human eyeball is concerned!

Ha ha really? Even though should a ticket with cross London validity be sold and TfL get that share of the revenue they wont accept the tickets even through the manual wide aisle gate? How did they manage to swing that one then?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Which is very poor indeed. Palm off the problem to another TOC because Northern can't be bothered to provide proper ticket issuing facilities (where have we heard that before !!)

And what if the guard on the next train is unwilling to do the excess ? In my example a Swinton to Southampton Super Off Peak Return is £97.90. Swinton to London is £74.50. I would not be at all surprised if the EMT guard told the passenger to sort it out at St Pancras. By then the excess would be an 'over distance' one after the journey on the ticket was complete and I am sure I have read on here that such things are not allowed. Hence the passenger would probably be told to go over to Waterloo (paying again on the tube) where they would be offered a London to Southampton Off Peak return at £43.80 giving an overpayment of more than £20 plus tube fares to try and get back from the less than entirely competent Northern Customer Services.

Frankly, if I was in this position and a guard could not issue a bog standard ticket for the journey I wished to make I would be politely declining the offer of any fudge and insist on buying the ticket at the first available opportunity from someone who could actually sell it.

If you "Politely refuse" then you will get a ufn. London are holding the rest of the TOC's to ransom. The reason tickets are bigger at present are 2 things. 1 they use AZTEC codes and not QR codes. AZTEC contain more info and has a lot of redundancy and the other is the Conditions of Travel at present are printed on the front. In the Jan update these should be printed on the back of the ticket. so ticket size will decrease by a 3rd. people forget that magnetic strip tech contains very limited information and is as outdated as a Pacer. The StarMobile system is a good system that was rushed out mainly due to the fact that it was stipulated before Arriva actually got the Northern Franchise and then like a lot of things in Franchise changes got delayed and delayed.

The Project manager is an honest guy who has been honest with the Star users about the issues and about what steps are being taken and also Northern have been holding back 1.5 Million pounds from Fujitsu until they sort things out properly.

 

[takno]

If you "Politely refuse" then you will get a ufn. London are holding the rest of the TOC's to ransom. The reason tickets are bigger at present are 2 things. 1 they use AZTEC codes and not QR codes. AZTEC contain more info and has a lot of redundancy and the other is the Conditions of Travel at present are printed on the front. In the Jan update these should be printed on the back of the ticket. so ticket size will decrease by a 3rd. people forget that magnetic strip tech contains very limited information and is as outdated as a Pacer. The StarMobile system is a good system that was rushed out mainly due to the fact that it was stipulated before Arriva actually got the Northern Franchise and then like a lot of things in Franchise changes got delayed and delayed.

The Project manager is an honest guy who has been honest with the Star users about the issues and about what steps are being taken and also Northern have been holding back 1.5 Million pounds from Fujitsu until they sort things out properly.

At the end of the day they've rolled out a format which isn't fit for purpose, and will still not be fit for purpose after the updates, but by maybe 30% less. This massively inconveniences customers and is every bit as arrogant as gner rolling out those ridiculous airline sized tickets 20 years ago.

In addition the machine can't sell fast enough, doesn't allow the TOC to meet their contractual obligations to sell the appropriate tickets, and won't work at the largest station. They've done this when a working alternative still exists and could have been bought.

T&Cs could have been pre-printed on the back of the ticket stock like it always has been in the past, or a leaflet supplied on request by the conductor

if Aztec doesn't fit, then you don't use Aztec - QR can easily hold all the relevant information and a digital signature

Frankly neither the honesty of the project manager nor the temporary withholding of the money from Fujitsu Siemens will do anything to help the passengers who have been handed short term delays and a product which starts from the fundamental misconception that it is appropriate or desirable to move away from cardboard tickets.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... London are holding the rest of the TOC's to ransom....

It's actually far more bizarre than that, the TOCs are holding themselves to ransom by requiring LUL/TfL to update equipment that LUL/TfL have no interest in updating and none of the TOCs want to pay for it.

....The reason tickets are bigger at present are 2 things. 1 they use AZTEC codes and not QR codes. AZTEC contain more info and has a lot of redundancy....

In actual fact, the codes intended to be put on the front of the new design of CCST was..... AZTEC. It's just that it was a smaller square and couldn't carry as much information, apparently affecting data collection for "marketing purposes", perhaps better described as "how to relieve passengers of their money most efficiently".

.... and the other is the Conditions of Travel at present are printed on the front....

Because some one had the bright idea of making ticket stock cheaper by just using plain white receipt roll, and they realised too late that it would have to be coloured the same as CCST with the conditions blurb pre-printed on the back.

.... In the Jan update these should be printed on the back of the ticket so ticket size will decrease by a 3rd.....

They already are printed on the back.

....people forget that magnetic strip tech contains very limited information and is as outdated as a Pacer....

It does, however, actually do the job it was intended to do, unlike PRT.

.... The StarMobile system is a good system that was rushed out mainly due to the fact that it was stipulated before Arriva actually got the Northern Franchise and then like a lot of things in Franchise changes got delayed and delayed....

Northern's roll out was delayed, Arriva had much longer to sort out what machines they wanted all their TOCs to have (if it is even true that Arriva have specified STARMobile with PRT for all Arriva TOCs).

....The Project manager is an honest guy who has been honest with the Star users about the issues and about what steps are being taken and also Northern have been holding back 1.5 Million pounds from Fujitsu until they sort things out properly.

I'm not convinced of the honesty bit and Fujitsu updates won't cure the PRT blight.

Cross-London and PlusBus issues are nothing to do with STARMobile and everything to do with PRT.

At the end of the day they've rolled out a format which isn't fit for purpose and will still not be fit for purpose after the updates,...

Correct.

.... but by maybe 30% less....

Size plays no part in when all the TOCs (and LUL/TfL) get all the barriers updated and staff issued with AZTEC readers, so it won't be any better at all as a result of smaller, but still too large, tickets.

.... This massively inconveniences customers and is every bit as arrogant as gner rolling out those ridiculous airline sized tickets 20 years ago.

In addition the machine can't sell fast enough, doesn't allow the TOC to meet their contractual obligations to sell the appropriate tickets,...

Correct.

.... and won't work at the largest station....

Any station.

.... They've done this when a working alternative still exists and could have been bought....

Exactly.

T&Cs could have been pre-printed on the back of the ticket stock like it always has been in the past,....

It is already, multiple times even on a single ticket.

....if Aztec doesn't fit, then you don't use Aztec - QR can easily hold all the relevant information and a digital signature....

AZTEC isn't even needed. It will end up costing TOCs more, when they could be putting money into products that actually have a future.

 

[philthetube]

If you board a train and circumstances dictate that you have to pay on the train and the ticket you want cannot be sold can you be required to buy something else or can you insist on waiting until the nest opportunity?

 

[grumblingalong]

For those of you struggling with the machines I bring good tidings from the STAR test region that is Anglia. A recent software upgrade means both CCST and roll printers work much faster, too fast for me to keep up. The roll printer has also been alerted to print tickets on the other orientation which has significantly reduced their length.

Still not perfect by any means but, almost of the quality it should have been when released 6 months ago...

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Not all Intercity TOCS will be able to do Underground or Cross London tickets either.

VTEC are already using PRT, although tickets for cross london travel can be sold as TOD collection code which the passenger then has to go and collect upon arrival at Kings Cross - not exactly helpful.

VTWC are going to be using PRT too, wih the exception of Revenue Protection staff who will use CCST.

The obsession with PRT seems to stem only from the desire to save money and the alleged significantly higher cost of mobile CCST printers and tickets.

 

[johntea]

To speed up sales even before this new system can conductors 'pre print' a batch of tickets so they can just flog them?

I'm fairly sure on the very busy morning services between Knottingley and Leeds many people just get sold a ticket from Knottingley rather than the intermediate stations as it is exactly the same price regardless

 

[Clip]

To speed up sales even before this new system can conductors 'pre print' a batch of tickets so they can just flog them?

I'm fairly sure on the very busy morning services between Knottingley and Leeds many people just get sold a ticket from Knottingley rather than the intermediate stations as it is exactly the same price regardless

No because accounting rules do not let this happen as there would be massive variances from tickets sold to income gained and a pure headache to try and sort out afterwards without even getting into any alleged fraudulent activity

 

[Bellbell]

To speed up sales even before this new system can conductors 'pre print' a batch of tickets so they can just flog them?

I'm fairly sure on the very busy morning services between Knottingley and Leeds many people just get sold a ticket from Knottingley rather than the intermediate stations as it is exactly the same price regardless

Yes, we can. If you know what tickets you're likely to sell it does make sense although of course it only works if people are paying cash plus I don't know how the powers that be feel about a whole load of non issues if you get the numbers wrong.

As for cross London tickets, I'd have no problem with a passenger waiting to buy it somewhere where they can, you know, actually buy what they want. I don't know how revenue are going to feel, which would be my only reservation but I have no issue with it myself.

 

[Adam0984]

To speed up sales even before this new system can conductors 'pre print' a batch of tickets so they can just flog them?

I'm fairly sure on the very busy morning services between Knottingley and Leeds many people just get sold a ticket from Knottingley rather than the intermediate stations as it is exactly the same price regardless

The only issue there is they would have to be sold and printed in individual transactions, if they are sold as 10 returns the STAR machine will only non issue all 10 and not the 2 you haven't managed to sell. Where as avantix could just do the remaining 2

 

[maniacmartin]

Perhaps a solution would be to have a load of pre-printed "Cross-London transfer gate coupons" on credit-card sized stock that the guard carries, which contains text to the effect that it is only valid in conjunction with a tillroll ticket. Then when someone wants to buy a ticket that includes a Maltese Cross, it is printed on tillroll stock, and the guard also gives them this extra preprepared coupon to operate the tube gates.

The preprinted gate coupons need not even be dated, so they could be stored for a while. (TfL already sell undated paper travelcards via travel agents, and the gateline encodes the date on the magstripe when it first goes through the gate)

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Nope, all STARMobile is the same. TfL and bus companies won't accept the new thermal rolls.

Week today and Avantix will be dead.

Should be interesting.

I know of at least one major operator that does not have a replacement ready

I am pleased to report that Avantix is most certainly not dead. Mine is alive and well and those at our depot all failed to self combust and die as the new year arrived. All up to date with the new fares etc.