Avantix replacement (previously: Arriva ditch Avantix)

[Clip]

I was talking about user confidence when the Avantix replacement is rolled out, not confidence in when. However, it's worth noting that the currently (almost) universal Avantix effectively became obsolete at about the end of March - I'm not aware of any TOC that has a replacement in operation yet, and that takes into account a number of different suppliers. It's obviously not the easiest thing to get up and running.
.

It certainly isn't. Unfortunately some people don't understand that real world testing can be very different from in house testing of something and would rather try and pour scorn on the difficulties rather than understanding them.

 

[Starmill]

I see what you mean now Haywain, yes sorry.

I would have thought though that there is due process for research, development and testing of new hardware and software? The product is developed and tested by the supplier, then tested against the requirements of the company, then a small trial can take place and then a slow roll-out can begin and speed up as confidence grows. At each level, the supplier can take on feedback and make modifications, with the hope being that fewer and fewer are needed as delivery continues.

Nobody suggested it would be easy. But I am surprised if there's not a rigourous regime for the introduction of a replacement as major as this. After all, it has been being talked about for several years now. I think the source of SarahJ's comment was that it sounds like that kind of issue would have been spotted earlier in the testing process.

 

[TheEdge]

I would expect TfL to fit bar code scanners to at least some gates on each gateline where there is a National Rail interchange for this reason.

They can't just pick interchanges. I sell enough on the train travelcards in the morning peak to know that having a sizeable group of passengers unable to exit without assistance at non interchange stations the likes Bank and Oxford Circus is just ridiculous.

 

[Haywain]

Nobody suggested it would be easy. But I am surprised if there's not a rigourous regime for the introduction of a replacement as major as this. After all, it has been being talked about for several years now. I think the source of SarahJ's comment was that it sounds like that kind of issue would have been spotted earlier in the testing process.

There are clear processes, and they include stages of testing before a pilot to get RSP accreditation, which is followed by roll-out. There may then be future upgrades fairly quickly to fix bugs that haven't prevented accreditation.

I know that ATOS have been working on a replacement for some years ("AVB2") but a good number of TOCs have chosen to go elsewhere and these decisions may have only been made over the last 12 to 18 months. Add to this that everyone wants to use the most up to date technology that they can, in order to future proof the new equipment and you can see where it becomes more difficult for suppliers entering a market they haven't been in before.

When Avantix is gone and hopefully not lamented, I am confident we will be seeing different kit in use around various TOCs and a variety of suppliers to choose from in the future. It's not out of the question that some of these could be adapted to become handheld TIS for use in stations in the future.

 

[kevjs]

This is possibly because barcode barriers are slower as some people aren't very good at lining the barcode up to scan - that isn't as much of a problem away from London.

I would in the long term expect TfL to move away from magstripe ticketing, though, in favour of Oyster/contactless/single-use Oyster[1] only.

[1] I mean contactless cards containing a Day Travelcard or similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


One would hope that they would incorporate contactless for <£30 fares, and that that, because it typically doesn't authorise, would be near instant.

Nottingham's new PAYG ticket issues black ITSO cards from the vending machines located at bus stops,, and the season ticket variant can be used on East Midlands Trains too. The pieces of the puzzle are now there, we just need them linking up!

 

[Geeves]

First new bits of kit supposed to be arriving to the big Northern depots, Vic, Picc and Leeds and at the end of June apparently. They are going half and half till everyone is trained some time by the end of July and maybe into August I think.

I will not be sad to see the end of the Avantix but the delivery drivers probably will!

 

[FordFocus]

Avantix had it's limited uses but it's major drawback was the software crashing and the fact it couldn't deal with offline transactions.

Are these new replacements able to print onto the orange ticket stock yet?

 

[Lincoln]

Avantix had it's limited uses but it's major drawback was the software crashing and the fact it couldn't deal with offline transactions.

Avantix MK 2 (the grey ones) is capable of fulfilling ToDs (internet bookings), checking APRS (disabled passengers) bookings and much more. Its all available for train companies to use, but most choose not to as it requires WiFi to function, which of course isn't available on all trains, and where it is provided is subject to the vagarities of the 3G/4G signal to the WiFi kit on the train creating a less than optimal experiance.

Again card transactions can also be authorised online as all the chip & pin variants are capable of having a SIM card fitted, but again most train companies choose not to as signal isn't guaranteed everywhere which of course would prolong card transactions whilst awaiting authorisation.

Avantix can issue all tickets with the exception of those requiring compulsory reservations, seasons longer than a weekly plus Railcards. I think it often gets unfairly slated for reasons that are probably more to due with poor operator training and software restrictions actually put on by the train company limiting its use.

I remember having to lug around a mini fares manual, routing guide, timetable and supplement book along with the weekly engineering circular amongst other things. The Avantix on the other hand enabled me to do away with all of that as it has all the up to date timetables within in, plus all fares between stations. Furthermore it meant that I don't have to manually calculate fares anymore which often weren't in the SPORTIS due its lack of memory.

People also often complain that it is slow, however compared to SPORTIS where you issued tickets first and took payment last, it will always seem slower, however more often than not its finished issuing tickets before the money and change has finished passing hands. Granted the card payment process is a bit of an ache but then again thats been foisted on all retailers by the banking system which in fairness increases card security at the expense of speed.

In some ways I think its a shame that the onboard system of issuing tickets is diversifying, rather than having everyone using the same brand and users pushing for improvements which everyone across all train companies will benefit from. But on the other hand I guess the newer entrants to the market will have to up their game to provide something which is at least as good as, if not better than the competition.

 

[Jonfun]

Avantix isn't bad software, it's more down to the ageing hardware it's having to run on. It can be slow, it can tend to crash when you least want it to, it can throw up inexplicable error messages ("You cannot sell tickets and catering items in the same transaction." ?!? I wasn't trying to?), but on the whole, it's reasonably usable.

 

[Lincoln]

Avantix isn't bad software, it's more down to the ageing hardware it's having to run on. It can be slow, it can tend to crash when you least want it to, it can throw up inexplicable error messages ("You cannot sell tickets and catering items in the same transaction." ?!? I wasn't trying to?), but on the whole, it's reasonably usable.

Indeed it is the hardware which is its main limitation now. A good example is the timetable enquiry function which isn't routing guide compliant. To add this feature would exceed the (now meagre) processing power and memory available to the PDA. Also a reverse timetable lookup would be really handy, where by you select a fare and then it searches for a route applicable and permitted for it, again something like that would need higher hardware specs.

Another let down in the slow I/O speeds for the storage card which holds the fares and timetable data. But on the other hand train companies can mitigate against this by applying pre-filters to initially block out commonly non-retailed items from appearing, with the user given the opportunity to expand the search for the more obscure fare if required. From what I gather unfortunately not all do this.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Had my training on SWTs Avantix replacement today, it looks like a great system and is Samsung S6 based. Training started yesterday and the machines will start to appear in depots from now onwards with Avantix being completely gone by Christmas 2016.

 

[ainsworth74]

You guys using till roll ticket stock or the traditional credit card stock?

 

[bunnahabhain]

Had my training on SWTs Avantix replacement today, it looks like a great system and is Samsung S6 based. Training started yesterday and the machines will start to appear in depots from now onwards with Avantix being completely gone by Christmas 2016.

ATOS Envoy? I know we're getting that in the East Midlands, though a few of the guys trialling it are less than complimentary about it, although it's early days yet.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Regular credit card stock for everything-including receipts and journey printouts. It'll be nice to be able to read ticket restrictions properly at last too!

 

[plymothian]

Is it possible to now have a definitive list of which TOC has gone for which system?

 

[the sniper]

Is it possible to now have a definitive list of which TOC has gone for which system?

Probably too soon to easily compile a full list yet, I'd say. Give it a few months and everyone should know what they've got.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Northern have got STAR Mobile with receipt roll
VTEC have got DORIS with receipt roll
TPE are also using receipt roll, but I'm not sure which TIS they have.

 

[TheEdge]

STAR Mobile is now live across most depots on AGA, Avantix has a few weeks left.

 

[323235]

I may have missed this question and answer due to not reading every single post on this thread but can all these new ticketing systems do Excess fares?

I'm expecting the answer to be no since the TOCs hate excesses and the Northrn guards I encounter don't even seem to have been trained how to do them at all

 

[380101]

Scotrail have STAR mobile with Samsung based mobile devices and the printer uses the normal credit card style tickets - only holds 100 tickets though.

 

[grumblingalong]

I may have missed this question and answer due to not reading every single post on this thread but can all these new ticketing systems do Excess fares?

I'm expecting the answer to be no since the TOCs hate excesses and the Northrn guards I encounter don't even seem to have been trained how to do them at all

They can, but they're 1000% more complex than they used to be on Avantix, don't get your hopes up.

 

[causton]

LM will have Envoy with Samsung mobiles and ticket stock - last date I heard for rollout was November...

 

[BHXDMT]

LM will have Envoy with Samsung mobiles and ticket stock - last date I heard for rollout was November...

January now I believe.

 

[craigybagel]

ATW will be Star Mobile on Samsung's and till roll. Refresher training is currently ongoing after initial training was done earlier this year.

 

[father_jack]

January now I believe.

LM put back due to LM guards manglement being "seconded" to roles in Southern/GTR land for some reason.

 

[Haywain]

I may have missed this question and answer due to not reading every single post on this thread but can all these new ticketing systems do Excess fares?

VTEC's DORIS kit certainly can.

 

[northernman]

Hi,

Northern are trialing STARMobile at Liverpool Lime St currently, and we plan to roll it out through September and October, subject to it passing its final tests, for info.

Regards

 

[johntea]

Do these new systems support contactless payment? Hopefully they do!

 

[craigybagel]

Do these new systems support contactless payment? Hopefully they do!

That's more a credit card machine issue, but certainly the ones being used with star mobile at ATW do.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Northern have got STAR Mobile with receipt roll
VTEC have got DORIS with receipt roll
TPE are also using receipt roll, but I'm not sure which TIS they have.

TPE are using Star and paper roll stock.

It has been trialled on and off at Huddersfield by the Revenue Staff there, but currently isn't in use due to reported electrical faults with the chargers. No roll out or training dates announced for the rest of the company yet.