Average age of British passenger trains is 21, study says

[jon0844]

Can be done though. The BBC does some very good, well researched, articles from time to time with the Magazine section.

Sadly, I think in the latest round of cuts the Magazine section has been cut back, or maybe axed entirely - and now you see the home page full of latest videos and stories about viral stuff on social media etc.

So, my comment above is definitely wishful thinking.

While I don't write about trains, I do try and write on my blog in the above style. I will take news and try and educate readers, turning stories into features. Sure, there's a lot of opinion in there which wouldn't normally make it into news - but I can break the traditional rules because I'm the editor of the site!

 

[richieb1971]

I haven't read this thread throughout so please go easy on me.

Several reasons why are trains are quite old -

1) They still work

2) New trains would be built to similar specification (the railway being the bottleneck)

3) New Locos do not have the gauging clearance the old ones do

4) Railways are now driven by profit, so milking the cow is expected.

5) Britain likes old and dirty.

 

[Failed Unit]

Certainly I understand from the EMU point of view that old units as long as you can get the parts they are easier to fix. The old "Hammer and Spanner". New microprocessor trains are more complicated. Makes you wonder in 30 years time how the class 700 will be in terms of needing to keep motors, software and computers going.

EMUs seem to get retractioned. Not sure how likely re-engineering at 150 is. Question for pacer fans. Was it just the transmission changed in the 80s or the engines as well.

 

[coppercapped]

I haven't read this thread throughout so please go easy on me.

Several reasons why are trains are quite old -

1) They still work

2) New trains would be built to similar specification (the railway being the bottleneck)

3) New Locos do not have the gauging clearance the old ones do

4) Railways are now driven by profit, so milking the cow is expected.

5) Britain likes old and dirty.

Electric trains are always claimed by many on these forums to have a 40 year life. So if the fleet size stays approximately constant then the average age of the trains will be 20.

As you say - they still work.

QED.

 

[D365]

4) Railways are now driven by profit, so milking the cow is expected.

5) Britain likes old and dirty.

Do either of those points reflect the fact that, to give one example, Greater Anglia is partaking in a complete renewal of its passenger fleet, despite the ongoing Class 321 refurbishment programme, and the fact that they lease a number of modern units that were procured by previous franchises.

Certainly I understand from the EMU point of view that old units as long as you can get the parts they are easier to fix. The old "Hammer and Spanner". New microprocessor trains are more complicated. Makes you wonder in 30 years time how the class 700 will be in terms of needing to keep motors, software and computers going.

EMUs seem to get retractioned. Not sure how likely re-engineering at 150 is. Question for pacer fans. Was it just the transmission changed in the 80s or the engines as well.

I think parts won't be a problem for most post-privatisation fleets like the Class 700s. I believe there are almost as many Desiro City carriages on order as there are existing Electrostars.

 

[jon0844]

Old and dirty?

Old is one thing (you can't make a 40 year old train a 1 year old train) but dirty?

It's a hollow metal shell. Besides cleaning the interior as is, you can also strip everything out and put all new fixtures and fittings in - as has happened on many trains.

So why would people equate old with dirty? I know they do - it's a classic line people use about trains and buses (but oddly, not planes) all the time. Often by people who don't use either.

Meanwhile, once the ice is out and platforms are gritted, I assume even the 700s are going to look 'dirty'. Perhaps it's time for them to be replaced!

 

[The Growl]

Old and dirty?

Old is one thing (you can't make a 40 year old train a 1 year old train) but dirty?

It's a hollow metal shell. Besides cleaning the interior as is, you can also strip everything out and put all new fixtures and fittings in - as has happened on many trains.

So why would people equate old with dirty? I know they do - it's a classic line people use about trains and buses (but oddly, not planes) all the time. Often by people who don't use either.

Meanwhile, once the ice is out and platforms are gritted, I assume even the 700s are going to look 'dirty'. Perhaps it's time for them to be replaced!

Well buses tend to get pretty dirty in London when they're old. The old East Lancs somethings that were on the 161 were rusty rattly pieces of red and brown metal held together by chips of paint.

 

[jon0844]

I'd agree that buses do seem to age much quicker. Probably doesn't help when a brand new bus can look awful from day one (like some of the Optare Solo's we got around here). On the plus side, they look as good today as they did then.

 

[randyrippley]

Old and dirty?

Old is one thing (you can't make a 40 year old train a 1 year old train) but dirty?

It's a hollow metal shell. Besides cleaning the interior as is, you can also strip everything out and put all new fixtures and fittings in - as has happened on many trains.

But too often when they come back from refurb the stripped out parts have NOT been cleaned and are still dirty.
But the key point there is that if they had been maintained properly they wouldn't be dirty in the first place..............

 

[mickulty]

Ed Cox, director of think-tank IPPR North, said it was a "national disgrace" and not what you see in Germany, France or Japan.

I asked a German friend if they could find age numbers for German stock. They couldn't for DB Regio but the average age of DB long-distance stock is 23.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is the Island line a separate company or part of SWT? If it's the latter the age of SWT's stock must be notably skewed (and the mathematicians would say a Standard Deviation should have been calculated )

It doesn't really significantly alter SWT's average at all, as discussed last time this came up. SWT have 1435 other vehicles, and only 12 of these. It only alters the fleet average by a few months.

 

[richieb1971]

Old and dirty?

Old is one thing (you can't make a 40 year old train a 1 year old train) but dirty?

Other countries go a few extra country miles when it comes to "Trains and Presentation".

Japan for example make all their Super High Speed trains in white. You will never see any dirty ones because they clean them up at almost every stop.

The UK's fastest trains are on HS1 and look like this -

Japanese Trains always look like this -

And you will rarely see anyone in the UK doing this -

Forgive me if I am supposed to use Spoiler tags on big pictures, I don't know how it works on this forum.

 

[jon0844]

Eurostar trains have always looked awful. Not just dirty but half the decals damaged or missing.

Nevertheless, I don't think we need people cleaning trains at every stop. If anyone does say they do, ask how much they'd like added to their ticket price to pay for it.

 

[D365]

Forgive me if I am supposed to use Spoiler tags on big pictures, I don't know how it works on this forum.

The admins should really implement some kind of default css tags.

However I don't believe Eurostar has been known for squeaky-clean trains as of late.

 

[theageofthetra]

Other countries go a few extra country miles when it comes to "Trains and Presentation".

Japan for example make all their Super High Speed trains in white. You will never see any dirty ones because they clean them up at almost every stop.

The UK's fastest trains are on HS1 and look like this -

Japanese Trains always look like this -

And you will rarely see anyone in the UK doing this -

Forgive me if I am supposed to use Spoiler tags on big pictures, I don't know how it works on this forum.

That is because in Japan cleanliness is a national, almost religious obsession- personal or otherwise. You never see a dirty car, even trucks that work on construction sites are cleaned up before setting off and covered in shiny spotless chrome. Train interiors are spotless because no one other than tourists eat or drink on them (long distance trains excepted) & if they do your litter is your personal responsibility which the Japanese will never leave behind.

 

[daikilo]

That is because in Japan cleanliness is a national, almost religious obsession- personal or otherwise. You never see a dirty car, even trucks that work on construction sites are cleaned up before setting off and covered in shiny spotless chrome. Train interiors are spotless because no one other than tourists eat or drink on them (long distance trains excepted) & if they do your litter is your personal responsibility which the Japanese will never leave behind.

Nice model, saves on ageing I guess.

 

[jon0844]

It's perhaps worth adding that the bottom picture is likely of someone cleaning only the windows, while the middle picture is a plastic model.

I've been to Japan and seen how clean it is generally, as they have pride and honour, but I doubt they keep the trains absolutely spotless at all times. Probably a bit of an urban myth.

 

[richieb1971]

Apologies for the model picture. I totally picked a pic by random choice. However I would challenge you to find a dirty Bullet train on youtube or a pic of a dirty Japanese train.

I don't expect squeaky clean trains, but Thameslink and Eurostar are 2 companies of late which care nothing for presentation at all. Bedford had/or has a train cleaner but i only saw it used in the 1980's. I remember once the dirt was so thick on a 319 that at Brighton I cleaned a circle patch of the window so I could see through it.

 

[The Growl]

Which is exactly why we need dark colours on vulnerable areas on trains. These stupid white colour schemes that are coming around aren't helping. It's like when they put bright yellow on the top area near the exhaust on the HSTs.

 

[jon0844]

Does TL have some issues with train washing facilities at the moment? I rarely see really dirty trains on GN and recall FCC kept things clean.

As in clean windows and bodywork, not necessarily spotless vinyls having been scratched or damaged from removing graffiti.

When we have really bad weather, with snow and ice, and trains are disrupted I give TOCs a get out of jail card.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Which is exactly why we need dark colours on vulnerable areas on trains. These stupid white colour schemes that are coming around aren't helping. It's like when they put bright yellow on the top area near the exhaust on the HSTs.

SWT manage to keep their white trains relatively clean.

The 444s are a little grubby now but considering they haven't been repainted in 12 years that isn't bad.

 

[talltim]

What is included in the ORRs figures? Is it just coaches or locos and DVTs too?

I don't trust the figures, I calculated the Caledonian sleeper services assuming that all the stock was the oldest of its type and I still got a lower figure than the one reported. Including the locos took the average up but still not to 41.4

 

[najaB]

What is included in the ORRs figures? Is it just coaches or locos and DVTs too?

Here's a link to the data.

In the Rail Infrastructure, Assets and Environmental report they say:

Average age of rolling stock shows the average age of rail vehicles for each franchised train operating company at the end of 2015-16. This includes passenger vehicles leased to franchised train operating companies by rolling stock leasing companies (ROSCOs) and other financiers, but excludes vehicles such as locomotives and Driving Van Trailers.

 

[talltim]

In which case the Caledonian Sleeper one is definately wrong. The Mk2s are 41-44 years old and the Mk3 Sleepers are 32-34 years old, but the fact that there are 53 sleepers and 22 Mk2s brings the average down to a maximum of 36.9, assuming all the coaches are the oldest of their type, which they won't be.
If that is wrong what else is wrong?

 

[najaB]

In which case the Caledonian Sleeper one is definately wrong. The Mk2s are 41-44 years old and the Mk3 Sleepers are 32-34 years old, but the fact that there are 53 sleepers and 22 Mk2s brings the average down to a maximum of 36.9, assuming all the coaches are the oldest of their type, which they won't be.
If that is wrong what else is wrong?

I wonder if they are just counting the introduction date of each type of vehicle rather than the individual units. So Mk3 Sleeper (34), Mk2 Lounge car (44), Mk2 seated car (44) = 122 /3 = 40.6 average age.

It doesn't make logical sense but it's the only way I can get close to 41 years.

 

[Wallsendmag]

What about the C130's. Plenty of them knocking about. Although I don't know if there are many H or K's in service compared to the newish J's.

Getting back on thread...
I much prefer older stock, it's more comfortable to travel in for a start! (Except for the nodding donkies of course!)

Don't forget the B52


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[furnessvale]

I wonder if they are just counting the introduction date of each type of vehicle rather than the individual units. So Mk3 Sleeper (34), Mk2 Lounge car (44), Mk2 seated car (44) = 122 /3 = 40.6 average age.

It doesn't make logical sense but it's the only way I can get close to 41 years.

On that basis there are a lot of old Boeing 737 aircraft about.

First entered service 1968.

 

[The Growl]

SWT manage to keep their white trains relatively clean.

The 444s are a little grubby now but considering they haven't been repainted in 12 years that isn't bad.

That's probably because they clean them and they're electrics running with electrics. Long distance trains, trains in diesel operating fields, and trains which cannot be cleaned frequently (particulary in the mentioned areas) should not have light colours.

jonmorris0844 Does TL have some issues with train washing facilities at the moment? I rarely see really dirty trains on GN and recall FCC kept things clean.

Weren't FCC's stock notoriously dirty?

 

[jon0844]

I don't recall them being dirty. To be honest, I don't see them as dirty now. Floors don't count when it's wet or there's sand/grit on platforms.

FCC not only washed trains but they were incredibly 'on it' with regards to the interiors. They had staff with tablets going around as trains were in public service checking grab rails, behind seats, running fingers along the top of poster boards, luggage racks etc.

I also think the current contractor doing cleaning (including mopping floors in toilets) at King's Cross with pretty limited turnaround times do a great job. I bet they're paid terribly, but they seem very dedicated - especially given what state some incoming trains are in after a fairly short run in the middle of the day.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I wonder if they are just counting the introduction date of each type of vehicle rather than the individual units. So Mk3 Sleeper (34), Mk2 Lounge car (44), Mk2 seated car (44) = 122 /3 = 40.6 average age.

It doesn't make logical sense but it's the only way I can get close to 41 years.

Do the locos impact?