Barry scrap yard 1973

randyrippley

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Another question is whilst the cab carries the number D6122, weathering underneath revealed D6121. So what is the real number? D6121 had" eyebrows" above the cab D6122 didn't . Were the cabs replaced or did the locos switch numbers?
Its been documented elsewhere that when the class 21 > 29 conversions were done, the finished locos didn't all retain their original numbers. I've seen a number of photo threads where people have tried to work out why a converted machine has the number of one that wasn't converted.........I think there's still a lot of info out there to discover.
This photo shows a 21: no headcode boxes and it still has nose doors
the list of conversions according to Wiki:
D6100–03, D6106-D6108, D6112–D6114, D6116, D6119, D6121, D6123, D6124, D6129, D6130, D6133, D6134 and D6137

This photo is of 6122 which matches its unconverted status, 6121 was a 29. However I'd bet the numbers were switched.
 
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randyrippley

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Problem is there are 2 possible solutions, the most likely is that the loco's changed numbers whilst in St Rollox works, but other posibility is cab change. There is also the question as to a class 24 ( cant recall number ) where it is believed that one was rebuilt from parts of 2
happened several times on 24 and 31. Both had examples of unmatched cabs
 

crosscity

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I don’t know how long anyone else has just spent looking through photos of Barry Scrapyard online, but I think I’ve just burnt the dinner...
I've burnt both lunch and dinner! Just look what you started crosscity!:lol:
Sorry about that! I hope you haven't gone hungry. I suggest a sandwich and when eating it pretend you are sat in the cab of one of those engines enjoying lunch on your day out to Woodhams in the 1970's. It's what I did!
 

Ash Bridge

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Sorry about that! I hope you haven't gone hungry. I suggest a sandwich and when eating it pretend you are sat in the cab of one of those engines enjoying lunch on your day out to Woodhams in the 1970's. It's what I did!
Good idea! Perhaps a British Rail Catering (think that was the name back then) product?
 

Robin Edwards

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Your post confirms that the lines of locomotives at Barry changed over time as locomotives left. Looking at the state of most of them, it's surprising they could be moved at all. So finding someone who was there or has found photos from 1973 is crucial in identifying the locos. Thanks to Ash Bridge for identifying the two Bulleids and kicking off the interesting discussion about D6122/D6121.

I will change the caption on my photo. I never realised a loco could swap it's number with another one.

My original query has been answered successfully, so now I'll pose another in the same vein:

03Aug73. Railrover trip. Barry Scrap Yard. BR 2-6-4T 80098. [Slide_0420]
by Ray, on Flickr. So what is behind 80098?
I have a hunch that the Hall class behind 80098 is 4920 Dumbleton Hall attatched to it's 4000g Collett tender. If you take a look at this image on Flickr taken in 1975, you will see 4920 sandwiched between two standard 4MT tanks. (albeit the other way around but I still believe this to show 4920)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/32023665316/in/photolist-6hWRjt-QMPE1C-eeW6eG-9tzXWX
 
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Cowley

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It is very hard to work these out. As was mentioned earlier, the locos were moved around a lot back then to release them.
Every time I look at a few pictures of a particular locomotive it seems to be next to something different in almost every photo.
 

delt1c

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Its been documented elsewhere that when the class 21 > 29 conversions were done, the finished locos didn't all retain their original numbers. I've seen a number of photo threads where people have tried to work out why a converted machine has the number of one that wasn't converted.........I think there's still a lot of info out there to discover.
This photo shows a 21: no headcode boxes and it still has nose doors
the list of conversions according to Wiki:
D6100–03, D6106-D6108, D6112–D6114, D6116, D6119, D6121, D6123, D6124, D6129, D6130, D6133, D6134 and D6137

This photo is of 6122 which matches its unconverted status, 6121 was a 29. However I'd bet the numbers were switched.
The 1st conversion from 21 to 29 was D6123 and this was released still with communication doors and no headcode box and was never this fitted
 

Cowley

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I'll pose another in the same vein:

03Aug73. Railrover trip. Barry Scrap Yard. BR 2-6-4T 80098. [Slide_0420]
by Ray, on Flickr. So what is behind 80098?
In the background behind the what we’re assuming is a Hall (possibly Dumbleton). Is that an Ivatt tank? Or is it another 80000?
24C8A10B-0DD8-4D8C-AC0F-72A3B37C65E6.jpeg
(Looks like a Manor in front of it too)

If it’s an Ivatt then both 41312 and 41313 (I think the other two preserved ones were purchased directly from BR?) were in the yard at the time, but there’s various pictures of 41312 taken between 1972 and 1974 that show it parked at the end of a line next to a Merchant Navy like in this photo taken in 1973 by Richard Denny:
C977D752-10B8-4CE1-961E-218AAEB2F3A8.jpeg

I can’t find much on 41298, but 41313 received a coat of red oxide in 1974 and appeared to be in fairly good nick like the one in the photo.
 

crosscity

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I have a hunch that the Hall class behind 80098 is 4920 Dumbleton Hall attatched to it's 4000g Collett tender. If you take a look at this image on Flickr taken in 1975, you will see 4920 sandwiched between two standard 4MT tanks. (albeit the other way around but I still believe this to show 4920)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/32023665316/in/photolist-6hWRjt-QMPE1C-eeW6eG-9tzXWX
I'm not very good at identifying steam engines, and I'll take your word that it is a GW Hall. However I'm not convinced yet. Perhaps you (or another Hall expert) can point to why 4920 can be uniquely identified from both pictures.
 

Robin Edwards

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I'm not very good at identifying steam engines, and I'll take your word that it is a GW Hall. However I'm not convinced yet. Perhaps you (or another Hall expert) can point to why 4920 can be uniquely identified from both pictures.
take a look round Flickr and you will see that 4920 had the 'SOLD' lettering painted on the smokebox (just discernible in your image) plus same weathered markings on the attached 4000g Collett tender
 

Cowley

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There is another image showing 80098 between 4920 and 80097 on Flickr taken 1975 - same line up as your image.
In the photos I’ve seen of 4920 from around then the tank in front of it is the wrong way around?
 

crosscity

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take a look round Flickr and you will see that 4920 had the 'SOLD' lettering painted on the smokebox (just discernible in your image) plus same weathered markings on the attached 4000g Collett tender
My picture shows the other side of the Hall, which is out of focus, so I can't see what you mean. The tender certainly looks the same.

Has anyone got a list of Halls that were at Barry at the time? pictures of these might give a clue.
 

Cowley

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My picture shows the other side of the Hall, which is out of focus, so I can't see what you mean. The tender certainly looks the same.

Has anyone got a list of Halls that were at Barry at the time? pictures of these might give a clue.
That’s one of the problems, there were so many Halls in Barry Scrapyard at that time...
I think there were 11 Halls and 6 Modified Halls at Barry?
 

Robin Edwards

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Robin Edwards

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List of Halls and the year they left Barry :
4983 (4965) - 1970
5900 - 1971
6960 - 1972
4930 - 1973
4942 - 1974
6990 - 1975
4920 - 1976
6989 - 1978
4936, 5952, 5972, 7903 - 1981
4953 - 1984
4979, 6984 - 1986
5967, 7927 remained in 1987
 
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Robin Edwards

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The Ivatt tanks left as follows :
41312 - 1974
41313 - 1975
(41248 & 41303 were cut by Woodhams in 1965)

I don't see any Ivatt tanks in the images posted btw, only Standard 4MTs
 

Robin Edwards

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I'm not very good at identifying steam engines, and I'll take your word that it is a GW Hall. However I'm not convinced yet. Perhaps you (or another Hall expert) can point to why 4920 can be uniquely identified from both pictures.
My advice would be to trawl Flickr and work on basis of some elimination within the timeframe the image was taken. See earlier post to see what Halls existed and in which year. Halls are reasonably easy to pick from Manor's, Castles and 2800's - I don't consider myself to be a Hall expert though :)
 

Robin Edwards

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In the background behind the what we’re assuming is a Hall (possibly Dumbleton). Is that an Ivatt tank? Or is it another 80000?
View attachment 69468
(Looks like a Manor in front of it too)

If it’s an Ivatt then both 41312 and 41313 (I think the other two preserved ones were purchased directly from BR?) were in the yard at the time, but there’s various pictures of 41312 taken between 1972 and 1974 that show it parked at the end of a line next to a Merchant Navy like in this photo taken in 1973 by Richard Denny:
View attachment 69466

I can’t find much on 41298, but 41313 received a coat of red oxide in 1974 and appeared to be in fairly good nick like the one in the photo.
Behind 4920 is another bunker-on Standard 4MT tank (unID) and behind that, a Manor (unID)
Locomotives at Barry were shunted regularly as each locomotive and/or tender was purchased and removed.
 

Cowley

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Have a look at this image where 80098 is buffered to same Hall which is 4920

https://www.flickr.com/photos/13529...NutTdD-2etzKYu-2cbW7s1-NwBVmt-2cgymvV-2cb75HL

Here's another with 4920 - I believe you're looking at this eyeing from the other direction
https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/8690306094/in/photolist-eeW6eG-6hWRjt-9tzXWX-QMPE1C
I see what you’re saying Robin, it’s just that in all the other photos of 4920 from around that year it shows it smokebox to smokebox with the 4MT, whereas in the one Crosscity posted it shows the 4MT bunker to smokebox with 4920 and that’s what’s thrown me.
Here’s what I mean with the picture zoomed in again:
428D3F53-EF56-4054-B603-0DDB09C5789E.jpeg
Apart from that it does look like it could be Dumbleton Hall.

My friend Paul’s father actually helped rescue 4920 in the 1970s and went there to prepare it for removal. Unfortunately he just hasn’t got a clear enough memory these days to remember what was next to it...
 

Robin Edwards

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Hi Cowley, yes, I agree and I also found what seems to be 'Our Hall' (if 4920) sandwiched between 4MTs but both bunker and smokebox connected as you say. The difficulty is that shunting was almost constant although I'm not sure if locos could end up being 'turned' through shunting around the yards? Maybe someone will know.
From my notes, I also can't tell which locos were adjacent to each other as I didn't exactly record as much as I'd liked.
A question to ask your friend's father would be if the Collett 4000g tender attached at Barry accompanied 4920 to Buckfastleigh as I think it did? Weathering and rust stain/markings on this tender do seem to back up my theory that you have 4920 captured should the tender have stayed with the locomotive.
I'll do some more trawling to see by elimination what other halls showed at this time to render them eliminated or implicated with 4920 (this was oldest Hall at Barry and was therefore the first that I chose to search for which seemed to lend itself to the one in your image)

EDIT : searching against each Hall and 80xxx in Barry gave the following :
Interestingly the only Hall I could find parked with 4MT tanks was 4920 which was surprising.
4979 & 6984 still had a Collett 4000g tender attached in 76/75 respectively whilst 5972 had lost it's Hawksworth tender to the steel works,
5952 seemed to have red oxide paint applied in 1970s
4936 lost it's chimney capping fairly early and 5972 & 5967 the whole chimney. The chimney is not visible in your shot unfortunately.
4953, 7903 and 5967 seemed to have lost their tenders early. (I believe the tender from 5967 is stood unrestored at Didcot to this day being purchased as a spare)
6990's tender staining is different to 'yours' and had white paint where number plate existed.
7927 is interesting as it and Collet tender had been painted green in 1975 with the tender suggesting it had been sold for 4920? A spare maybe?

Searching the other way about against each 4MT 80xxx in Barry shows only 80098 and 80136 in same shot as a Hall and in both cases it's 4920. I couldn't find any other images showing 4MTs and Hall in shot together
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dubde...WH-2aNvFaL-V6YfUd-282S5Eq-7ucjSK-dQFk84-DRH37
 
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Cowley

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Hi Cowley, yes, I agree and I also found what seems to be 'Our Hall' (if 4920) sandwiched between 4MTs but both bunker and smokebox connected as you say. The difficulty is that shunting was almost constant although I'm not sure if locos could end up being 'turned' through shunting around the yards? Maybe someone will know.
From my notes, I also can't tell which locos were adjacent to each other as I didn't exactly record as much as I'd liked.
A question to ask your friend's father would be if the Collett 4000g tender attached at Barry accompanied 4920 to Buckfastleigh as I think it did? Weathering and rust stain/markings on this tender do seem to back up my theory that you have 4920 captured should the tender have stayed with the locomotive.
I'll do some more trawling to see by elimination what other halls showed at this time to render them eliminated or implicated with 4920 (this was oldest Hall at Barry and was therefore the first that I chose to search for which seemed to lend itself to the one in your image)
These are useful comparison photos Robin.
It’s a screenshot from the Preserved British Steam Locomotives website.
I can’t get hold of my friend at the moment but if you zoom into the marks on the tender they’re all in the same place, especially the long rectangular faded section on the wider top part of the tender:
F9FFB083-69FA-448D-BA24-EC30D5A4CDD2.jpeg
 

Robin Edwards

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These are useful comparison photos Robin.
It’s a screenshot from the Preserved British Steam Locomotives website.
I can’t get hold of my friend at the moment but if you zoom into the marks on the tender they’re all in the same place, especially the long rectangular faded section on the wider top part of the tender:
View attachment 69491
This one suggests a tender from 7927 being earmarked for 4920 - maybe a spare assuming it was actually purchased?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnm...U-FWR2dw-DFfBUs-6jPhJ9-JAR39c-24VS1DT-23vo8Yt

Here's my image of 4920 after arriving at Buckfastleigh taken in summer 1976

https://www.flickr.com/photos/113816008@N03/46027164324/in/photolist-2cQrekc-2d8gfoG
 

Cowley

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crosscity

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These are useful comparison photos Robin.
It’s a screenshot from the Preserved British Steam Locomotives website.
I can’t get hold of my friend at the moment but if you zoom into the marks on the tender they’re all in the same place, especially the long rectangular faded section on the wider top part of the tender:
This is convincing evidence that 4920 kept the tender it was adjacent to in the photo at Barry.

Blimey. This isn’t easy is it! :lol:
Great photo by the way.
I concur! Am still not convinced 4920 is the loco next to 80098 in my photo. The main problem is the direction that the Tanks are pointing. It is possible that they changed direction simply by shunting one loco at a time into the next siding so the two Tanks end up at the opposite ends of the Hall. To be convinced I just need to see a picture of the Hall and tender showing 80098 in the background. I'm sure one will turn up!

I have got a few more pictures with similar queries, but think I will create a new thread for those. I was thinking this thread would be a bit like the 'TOPS requests' thread, but it's turned out far more complex and interesting. I've learnt that a) some modernisation diesels exchanged identities; b) that scrapyard locomotives were moved about more than you might think and c) that the exercise to identify adjacent locomotives on photos taken 50 years ago is not that simple.

Thank you to everyone for taking the time to investigate and contribute. But please, make sure you have comfort breaks - I don't want any starving enthusiasts on my conscience!
 

Cowley

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Don’t worry about comfort breaks @crosscity. This is the kind of thing that makes the hobby so interesting. ;)
I’d say just post the photos on this thread. I’m sure that there’s plenty of people following it that haven’t chipped in yet (but will if they know something)...
 

Robin Edwards

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