Battery powered Electrostar to go into passenger carrying trials

[DownSouth]

I don't recognise these figures at all. The one-way journey time on the Windermere branch is around 20min and the service is irregular but approximately hourly. As there can only ever be one train on the branch there is no way the layovers are as long as you state.

That is the total amount of layover time in a 4-5 hour period, from five layovers at Windermere and four at Oxenholme.

Look up the timetable and add it up for yourself.

 

[The Ham]

Much of the big costs (AIUI) are associated with the substation feeds and junctions, so for instance with the Windermere branch (where I assume the junction at one end is already done) providing a substation feed at Windermere to charge the batteries would mean that most of the rest of the works to provide wires over the whole length would be not that much more. Especially if there was a more convenient substation feed than at the station (which would reduce the cost of providing it).

This then needs to be balanced with the extra cost of the batteries on each unit which may need to use the line (even a service which only needs one unit would probably need at least 3 units with batteries to allow for maintenance and/or the spare being in the wrong location)

Also there is the advantage that there could be some services to/from further afield (such as Birmingham or Manchester) if wires were provided (which would otherwise could be difficult to arrange and more costly, as more units would be required to have batteries).

The best locations for battery trains are short branches served by longer distance trains (so plenty of time to recharge on existing OHLE) where there are a number of such branches served by the same TOC which can be served from one or two depots (so the amount of spare stock is minimised, which also minimises the number of batteries required).

 

[455driver]

Much of the big costs (AIUI) are associated with the substation feeds and junctions, so for instance with the Windermere branch (where I assume the junction at one end is already done) providing a substation feed at Windermere to charge the batteries would mean that most of the rest of the works to provide wires over the whole length would be not that much more. Especially if there was a more convenient substation feed than at the station (which would reduce the cost of providing it).

This then needs to be balanced with the extra cost of the batteries on each unit which may need to use the line (even a service which only needs one unit would probably need at least 3 units with batteries to allow for maintenance and/or the spare being in the wrong location)

Also there is the advantage that there could be some services to/from further afield (such as Birmingham or Manchester) if wires were provided (which would otherwise could be difficult to arrange and more costly, as more units would be required to have batteries).

The best locations for battery trains are short branches served by longer distance trains (so plenty of time to recharge on existing OHLE) where there are a number of such branches served by the same TOC which can be served from one or two depots (so the amount of spare stock is minimised, which also minimises the number of batteries required).

If you electrified the whole branch you would just take a feed from an existing substation on the mainlines and feed it from one end only (or even connect it to directly to the main lines with an isolated section so you could isolate the branch if needed for maintenance), one train on a branch would need the same amount of electricity as another train on the main line so no need for anything fancy.

 

[TheKnightWho]

You could have short sections of OHL in a couple of the tunnels as a boost.
TBH the overheads are not affected by the waves/spray as much as would be expected and its probably only a few days a year (and only for a few hours on those days) that it would be a problem anyway.

Saltcoats is electrified and gets pretty battered year on year. I doubt tunnels would be needed. Dawlish is - like every other "unelectrifiable" place on the network - a myth.

Although it's not obvious on the picture, there is actually an outer sea wall a few metres away from the wall directly protecting the railway line. Perhaps something at Dawlish might be necessary. Even if it is, it's certainly within NR's capability to install one.

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Its a pity the 6.25kV component was removed from the standard - it would have solved these issues really.

I suspect it's probably to do with costs and standardisation for all trains here - so you don't have to check what trains can run under what wires - and with abroad - where procuring off-the-shelf OHLE solutions is cheaper than having a dual voltage bespoke system designed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you electrified the whole branch you would just take a feed from an existing substation on the mainlines and feed it from one end only (or even connect it to directly to the main lines with an isolated section so you could isolate the branch if needed for maintenance), one train on a branch would need the same amount of electricity as another train on the main line so no need for anything fancy.

This. I fear that the lines that would be easiest to run BMUs on in practice are also the ones that would require the least work to electrify anyway.

The only real uses I can see for it are extremely rural lines which couldn't be powered by pre-existing substations. The Far North Line, Kyle of Lochalsh and West High Lines are all perfect candidates, where if a battery can comfortably operate for 5 hours or so you would only need to install recharging stations at Inverness, Wick, Kyle of Lochalsh, Oban, Fort William and Mallaig. The highland sleeper could even have batteries installed for the last leg up to Fort William.

 

[The Ham]

If you electrified the whole branch you would just take a feed from an existing substation on the mainlines and feed it from one end only (or even connect it to directly to the main lines with an isolated section so you could isolate the branch if needed for maintenance), one train on a branch would need the same amount of electricity as another train on the main line so no need for anything fancy.

Which then certainly makes it cheaper than providing a substation feed at one end to charge the battery train.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Noticed the 379 sitting in Harwich International platform 3 this afternoon at around 15:35. I don't believe it had been used in service today, as 321326 was providing the branch service to Manningtree.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How big and heavy is the extra battery pack (I'm assuming it'll be separate from the normal batteries)? Is the weight of the battery pack in addition to the transformer (what's normally used for AC) or has the transformer been removed if it was fitted before?

 

[HSTEd]

The transformer is still fitted as the train recharges using the overhead wires and will switch to OLE if the battery runs dry during the test.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only real uses I can see for it are extremely rural lines which couldn't be powered by pre-existing substations. The Far North Line, Kyle of Lochalsh and West High Lines are all perfect candidates, where if a battery can comfortably operate for 5 hours or so you would only need to install recharging stations at Inverness, Wick, Kyle of Lochalsh, Oban, Fort William and Mallaig. The highland sleeper could even have batteries installed for the last leg up to Fort William.

Battery locomotives, rather than EMUs, are an interesting idea. Far more space for the batteries, of course. And the FW Sleeper locomotive has nice long layovers.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How big and heavy is the extra battery pack (I'm assuming it'll be separate from the normal batteries)? Is the weight of the battery pack in addition to the transformer (what's normally used for AC) or has the transformer been removed if it was fitted before?

The transformer is still needed as it has a pantograph - not least for charging the batteries!

Neil

 

[306024]

Noticed the 379 sitting in Harwich International platform 3 this afternoon at around 15:35. I don't believe it had been used in service today, as 321326 was providing the branch service to Manningtree.

Looking at RTT it did the planned trips. The last one is the 14.28 Harwich Town to Manningtree, then ECS to Harwich International, which is precisely where it should be at 15:35.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Battery locomotives, rather than EMUs, are an interesting idea. Far more space for the batteries, of course. And the FW Sleeper locomotive has nice long layovers.

Neil

Exactly what I was thinking. Plus plenty of time to charge on the OHLE up from London anyway.

However, unless batteries are an easy 'add-on' (similar to the removable engines in the 801s) then I can't see a special class of battery locomotives being specially designed just for the sleeper. However, if it was specified as a possible add-on for the next high-speed electric loco, such as a replacement for the class 92, then installing them in a small number for the sleeper fleet would potentially be financially viable. Having batteries as standard for electric locos could also prevent having to electrify large yards and sidings, even if the main running lines require OHLE (although I'm not sure how viable that would be, given the locos would need somewhere to charge).

 

[Fishplate84]

The batteries would have to be HUGE to carry a train any distance. If an electric car weighing 1.5 - 2 tonnes can only scrape 30 or 40 miles on battery power, a IPEMU totalling hundreds of tonnes in total must have a very limited range, especially if you wanted it to travel at any reasonable speed? Bridging a few gaps in overheads or self recovery for a few miles I get, a solution for branch lines I don't see.

 

[TAS]

Looking at RTT it did the planned trips. The last one is the 14.28 Harwich Town to Manningtree, then ECS to Harwich International, which is precisely where it should be at 15:35.

Tonight's Look East featured the service - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04xm1ft/look-east-east-14012015, at 21:25 (expires 6.55pm tomorrow).

 

[edwin_m]

The batteries would have to be HUGE to carry a train any distance. If an electric car weighing 1.5 - 2 tonnes can only scrape 30 or 40 miles on battery power, a IPEMU totalling hundreds of tonnes in total must have a very limited range, especially if you wanted it to travel at any reasonable speed? Bridging a few gaps in overheads or self recovery for a few miles I get, a solution for branch lines I don't see.

However, a car wastes a lot of energy squashing the tyres down on each rotation which just makes them hot. A steel wheel hardly squashes at all which is why trains are much more energy-efficient and can roll for several miles on level track without applying any power. So although more energy is needed to get the train up to the same speed, much less is needed to keep it moving and some of that accelerating energy can be returned to the battery with regenerative braking. Trains also tend to stop and start less often than cars.

I read that one of the "trams on tyres" in France used 50% more power than an equivalent "real" tram.

 

[306024]

Tonight's Look East featured the service - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04xm1ft/look-east-east-14012015, at 21:25 (expires 6.55pm tomorrow).

Thanks for posting this, grab a look before tomorrow evening if you get a chance.

 

[jon0844]

I'm really keen for this trial to be a success and battery charging tech (speed and protecting against damage) is improving all the time thanks to the automotive industry.

 

[90019]

If an electric car weighing 1.5 - 2 tonnes can only scrape 30 or 40 miles on battery power

Most full size electric cars are now pushing up towards 100 mile ranges, with some already well beyond.

 

[Harpers Tate]

If an electric car weighing 1.5 - 2 tonnes can only scrape 30 or 40 miles on battery power....

Try 250 or more miles. And yes, you can go and buy one, right now. It can be recharged to about half capacity in 20 minutes given the right power supply. (The other half takes longer due to the current nature of battery chemistry). Google Tesla for more information.

 

[jon0844]

At CES there was a company that claims to be able to charge batteries in a matter of minutes, but it could well be fake/vapourware. However, if it is real or can be made real then that, to quote the late Steve Jobs' 'changes everything'.

Fast charging can shorten the life of a battery markedly, but there's a lot of work being done in that area so I am sure it can be solved.. and batteries are also being mass produced, which is bringing costs down.

 

[455driver]

A daft question, but I have never understood why solar panels built into the cars roof cant be used to trickle charge the battery continuously (subject to daylight ), I know the amount of power needed is quite considerable but as the saying goes, every little helps!

 

[Buttsy]

A daft question, but I have never understood why solar panels built into the cars roof cant be used to trickle charge the battery continuously (subject to daylight ), I know the amount of power needed is quite considerable but as the saying goes, every little helps!

How would you open the sunroof if you had solar panels????

 

[Stompehh]

A daft question, but I have never understood why solar panels built into the cars roof cant be used to trickle charge the battery continuously (subject to daylight ), I know the amount of power needed is quite considerable but as the saying goes, every little helps!

The problem with solar panels is that they are reasonably heavy. The small amount of power generated is offset by the extra energy you have to expend to cart the things around! The same would apply to their use on trains, even just for hotel power etc.

That's not to say they aren't getting lighter of course, and such ideas may be more viable in the future - google "Solar Impulse" for a really interesting project.

The best way to use solar on the railway is to have panels as ground infrastructure supplying the trains that way, then there is no weight penalty for the train. Of course, other generation methods still need to exist for night time or when it's less sunny, until someone solves the problem of high capacity grid storage...

 

[Bletchleyite]

One good use of solar might be to pump the water up to the top in Dinorwig. If it's ever sunny in Wales!

Neil

 

[edwin_m]

I don't have the figures to hand but I calculated a few years ago that even in a hot country with 100% efficient solar panels and no allowance for shading, the amount generated by solar panels on the roof would be far less than the traction or even the auxiliary power needs. They would make some difference, but there are other places where the same amount of panel would be far more effective and easier to maintain, such as on a station or depot roof.

 

[starrymarkb]

Saltcoats is electrified and gets pretty battered year on year. I doubt tunnels would be needed. Dawlish is - like every other "unelectrifiable" place on the network - a myth.

Although it's not obvious on the picture, there is actually an outer sea wall a few metres away from the wall directly protecting the railway line. Perhaps something at Dawlish might be necessary. Even if it is, it's certainly within NR's capability to install one.

50kV insulation - Suspect the people trying to claim it's not doable are the togs on flickr complaining about knitting spoiling their shots!

 

[The Ham]

A daft question, but I have never understood why solar panels built into the cars roof cant be used to trickle charge the battery continuously (subject to daylight ), I know the amount of power needed is quite considerable but as the saying goes, every little helps!

Of course, most cars are sat around in car parks at people's place of work all day, whilst a trains would be constantly using up more power than it would be able to generate.

If you are going use solar panels, the best location would be on station buildings where they can be orientated to best generate power and where the low levels of power generated could be used locally for station power requirements (lights. TVM's, displays, etc.).

 

[jon0844]

Good for hotel power, and solar panels are also improving all the time. Now you can even generate power from ordinary windows (reflecting light to small panels around the edges).

 

[TheKnightWho]

50kV insulation - Suspect the people trying to claim it's not doable are the togs on flickr complaining about knitting spoiling their shots!

Am I right in thinking that that's insulation designed for 50kV wiring? Or is it something a bit different than that?

 

[dgl]

While you can charge batteries quickly (there are Ni-Mh chargers that can charge AA's in 15mins (although I don't think it does them any good) it would need very high amperages which the current power infrastructure might not cope with.

Also (as pointed out on top gear) would people who leave their cars charging all day whilst at work find out that some hooligan has unplugged their car (although I would like to see the look on their face when they look at the range and it says '2 miles' :grin: )

 

[starrymarkb]

Am I right in thinking that that's insulation designed for 50kV wiring? Or is it something a bit different than that?

Yes, its designed for 50kV (basically bigger insulators and gaps)