Battery powered Electrostar to go into passenger carrying trials

[Stompehh]

Also (as pointed out on top gear) would people who leave their cars charging all day whilst at work find out that some hooligan has unplugged their car (although I would like to see the look on their face when they look at the range and it says '2 miles' :grin: )

I think the charging cables are normally locked in place at each end!

 

[Bob Ames]

A daft question, but I have never understood why solar panels built into the cars roof cant be used to trickle charge the battery continuously (subject to daylight ), I know the amount of power needed is quite considerable but as the saying goes, every little helps!

Not a daft question - as a former owner of a hybrid car with a solar roof, I often asked it myself. Turns out it is easier to send the solar-cell output to the 12V accessory battery than sending it into the 200V traction battery.

 

[jon0844]

If the solar panels are integrated within a material strong enough to replace part of the roof, as against being stuck on it, then you might get around the weight issue to a degree.

I don't know how tough they are, or could be made, but you could have solar panels that are inserted within the metal frame.

 

[HSTEd]

Unfortunately the solar panels are unlikely to make a significant contribution to the cost of actually running the train - certainly not enough to justify keeping all the panels and similar equipment compared to just having a heavier traction battery.

 

[button_boxer]

It happens on the 3rd rail network at the Kingsferry lifting bridge on the Sheerness branch - the unelectrified section is about 25m long!

Given that third rail EMUs have collection shoes along the length of the train, by the time the rearmost shoe leaves the third rail on one side of the gap the frontmost will already have made contact on the other side. The same happens at every level crossing on a third rail route - there's a gap in the third rail across the crossing but the train doesn't notice as it is longer than the gap.

 

[jon0844]

Unfortunately the solar panels are unlikely to make a significant contribution to the cost of actually running the train - certainly not enough to justify keeping all the panels and similar equipment compared to just having a heavier traction battery.

When we get them to convert more light to electricity, I think there will be more uses for panels. Clearly driving an electric motor isn't going to happen anytime soon, but for powering other systems they could be an added benefit, not specifically to try and charge the batteries to make it run longer.

Does anyone know if the power sockets on the 379 have been disabled? That's another thing to be considered - providing power to charge/power mobile devices, laptops etc. A lot less power in the grand scheme of things than running engines - but it introduces an 'unknown' that could impact range.

As indeed running on hot days where the air conditioning works harder and draws more power.

Clearly that's what trials are all about, but I'd be interested to see the figures afterwards if they're published.

 

[snowball]

Yes, its designed for 50kV (basically bigger insulators and gaps)

But (just to clarify) presumably used in this case because the wet, salty environment would increase the risk of flashover or leakage if standard insulators were used, rather than because of any plans to increase the voltage above 25kV.

 

[edwin_m]

Does anyone know if the power sockets on the 379 have been disabled? That's another thing to be considered - providing power to charge/power mobile devices, laptops etc. A lot less power in the grand scheme of things than running engines - but it introduces an 'unknown' that could impact range.

I've just suggested on another forum that they should provide those USB sockets that actually suck power out of people's devices when no mains is available.

But seriously, heat-ventilation-aircon is probably the only auxiliary load that is a noticeable fraction of traction. So to speak.

 

[Chris125]

Also it is worth noting that the Forth Rail bridge will probably be replaced/supplemented by a replacement crossing in the not too distant future - it is starting to show its age. So it not being electrified is not necessarily a big issue.

I can't recall hearing that before, all I can find is that back in 2007 Network Rail estimated it having a lifespan in excess of another 100 years.

Chris

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know if the power sockets on the 379 have been disabled? That's another thing to be considered - providing power to charge/power mobile devices, laptops etc. A lot less power in the grand scheme of things than running engines - but it introduces an 'unknown' that could impact range.

Given that a battery pack the size of a few metaphorical fag packets can charge a mobile phone for several days if not a week, that load will be completely inconsequential.

OTOH, changing the lighting for LED might make a noticeable difference.

Neil

 

[bavvo]

Would it not be easier to create a giant swappable battery pack on a pallet?

If you took a industry standard 1M pallet, and loaded it with approximately 1 cubic meters worth of battery, you could presumably have enough energy to push a train a reasonable distance. Therefore all you would need is to have a replacement battery waiting at the point where you need to replace it. It could be quickly swapped out with a pallet truck, and the train would be ready in minutes rather than hours.
You would lose a chunk of cabin space for this, or would have to make the train a bit longer, but it might be worth it.

On long lines where one a single battery pack is not enough to get it from end to end, you could stop on route and pick up a a replacement fairly easily as well. In fact there would be energy savings in swapping smaller batteries enroute rather than carrying the whole lot around at once.

With enough battery packs you could have a reliable solution for rural lines. Also, you wouldn't necessarily need to lay on extra power to the recharge points, as all the packs could be trickle charged overnight and stockpiled ready for use.

Question is, (and I'm not qualified to answer this) how much energy would such a battery pack contain, and how much does a train need to move on a typical branch line?

 

[route:oxford]

I can't recall hearing that before, all I can find is that back in 2007 Network Rail estimated it having a lifespan in excess of another 100 years.

Chris

He didn't say which Forth rail bridge...

The first, second and fifth Forth rail bridges are still in service. The third and fourth Forth bridges long dismantled.

The fifth Forth rail bridge is usually known as "The Forth Bridge".

 

[starrymarkb]

But (just to clarify) presumably used in this case because the wet, salty environment would increase the risk of flashover or leakage if standard insulators were used, rather than because of any plans to increase the voltage above 25kV.

Yep, wires stay at 25kV but are insulated for 50kV (though I should add that the insulators will be good for higher as there is always a margin built it)

 

[Murph]

He didn't say which Forth rail bridge...

The first, second and fifth Forth rail bridges are still in service. The third and fourth Forth bridges long dismantled.

The fifth Forth rail bridge is usually known as "The Forth Bridge".

And, the current Forth Bridge is actually the second Forth Bridge at that location, with the first one being aborted shortly after construction started (one truncated pier remains, supporting a small lighthouse).

I sincerely doubt that there's any significant concern over the life of the bridge after the huge maintenance programme completed a few years ago. It was always massively over-engineered on the main spans, and the new paint process should have completely encapsulated the steelwork in a very long lasting way (it was stripped bare, then epoxy coated with great care, prior to paint). I believe that they also replaced any rivets and small steelwork which were needing attention at that time.

 

[Chris125]

Just seen a link over on wnxx to an interesting article with some key targets for this trial:

- a range of 50km (regional service)
- an acceleration and speed similar to a DMU
- operational cycles of 30km battery and 50km overhead
- a lifetime of five to seven years
- a “high level of intrinsic safety”

 

[jon0844]

Given that a battery pack the size of a few metaphorical fag packets can charge a mobile phone for several days if not a week, that load will be completely inconsequential.

OTOH, changing the lighting for LED might make a noticeable difference.

I know charging a phone won't use a lot of power, but it still affects the predictability of the overall range. You could reserve an amount of power and disable the sockets if that's exceeded, but then people will probably get upset.

And as for LED lighting. I'm surprised that even the 387s have still got fluorescent tubes and not LEDs (Philips, amongst others, make them). The downlights are LEDs though.

 

[dmncf]

Noticed the 379 sitting in Harwich International platform 3 this afternoon at around 15:35. I don't believe it had been used in service today, as 321326 was providing the branch service to Manningtree.

Has anyone here travelled on the 379 IPEMU yet?

I'm keen to visit the Harwich Town branch to see it, but I would like to know if it really does work a full timetable every weekday on the Harwich Town branch as the Network Rail press release suggests.

 

[Class 170101]

Has anyone here travelled on the 379 IPEMU yet?

I'm keen to visit the Harwich Town branch to see it, but I would like to know if it really does work a full timetable every weekday on the Harwich Town branch as the Network Rail press release suggests.

Only runs between the peaks.

 

[alexl92]

Given that a battery pack the size of a few metaphorical fag packets can charge a mobile phone for several days if not a week, that load will be completely inconsequential.

OTOH, changing the lighting for LED might make a noticeable difference.

Neil

I presume you mean the battery pack can carry enough power to meet all the charging requirements of said phone over a number of days?! Barely any modern phones, particularly smartphones, can last more than 2 days without a full charge!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Just seen a link over on wnxx to an interesting article with some key targets for this trial:

- a range of 50km (regional service)
- an acceleration and speed similar to a DMU
- operational cycles of 30km battery and 50km overhead
- a lifetime of five to seven years
- a “high level of intrinsic safety”

If that's the specs then theoretically could a dual voltage emu (AC and DC) with a battery pack, operate the XC Bournemouth-Manchester Piccadilly route? Would there be enough time on the third rail (southern end) and under the wires (northern end) for a unit to recharge the battery pack properly?

 

[The Ham]

If that's the specs then theoretically could a dual voltage emu (AC and DC) with a battery pack, operate the XC Bournemouth-Manchester Piccadilly route? Would there be enough time on the third rail (southern end) and under the wires (northern end) for a unit to recharge the battery pack properly?

Given that route is due to be electrified before the change in franchise, so unlikely to be needed to be run using battery powered trains.

XC could have other routes which are not yet due to be electrified before the new franchise starts. However there is the risk that (to conserve power) that journey times may have to increase.

 

[cjmillsnun]

However, a car wastes a lot of energy squashing the tyres down on each rotation which just makes them hot. A steel wheel hardly squashes at all which is why trains are much more energy-efficient and can roll for several miles on level track without applying any power. So although more energy is needed to get the train up to the same speed, much less is needed to keep it moving and some of that accelerating energy can be returned to the battery with regenerative braking. Trains also tend to stop and start less often than cars.

I read that one of the "trams on tyres" in France used 50% more power than an equivalent "real" tram.

Nothing to do with squashing the tyre, all to do with the fact that rubber grips tarmac far better than steel grips steel.

 

[edwin_m]

Nothing to do with squashing the tyre, all to do with the fact that rubber grips tarmac far better than steel grips steel.

The grip explains better acceleration and braking but the energy consumption is down to the rubber deforming. Bend a fat piece of rubber up and down and it will get hot.

 

[M7R]

Solar panels are used in cars... Not very much as its a very costly option, but they are used and have been for a while,

http://www.audi.com.au/au/brand/en/Efficiency/efficiency_tech/energy_management/solar_sunroof.html

It is available in Europe too, that's just the first link I found

 

[455driver]

Thanks all for the replies about solar panels, it was just a thought!

 

[cjmillsnun]

The grip explains better acceleration and braking but the energy consumption is down to the rubber deforming. Bend a fat piece of rubber up and down and it will get hot.

No, the grip also means that there will be greater friction. The downward force is the same whether the wheel is rubber and air or solid steel. It is the mass of the item acting upon it. The friction is what generates heat. Rub your hands together, you'll find they get hot. That's friction. You'll find it does it more if your skin is dry because the hands stick to each other more (grip)

A hard solid rubber tyre is also less efficient than a steel wheel. Again because the rubber and tarmac combination is grippier than steel/steel.

What you're confusing it with is adhesive weight.

 

[HSTEd]

A solid rubber tyre only appears to be hard. It isn't really very hard at all.

 

[DownSouth]

The term you're all looking for is rolling resistance.

It's one of those things which has many variables involved and is not yet fully understood, but in general it is inversely proportional to the grip offered by the wheel.

 

[edwin_m]

No, the grip also means that there will be greater friction. The downward force is the same whether the wheel is rubber and air or solid steel. It is the mass of the item acting upon it. The friction is what generates heat. Rub your hands together, you'll find they get hot. That's friction. You'll find it does it more if your skin is dry because the hands stick to each other more (grip)

A hard solid rubber tyre is also less efficient than a steel wheel. Again because the rubber and tarmac combination is grippier than steel/steel.

What you're confusing it with is adhesive weight.

There is no heat generated between a wheel and a road or rail unless the two are slipping. Please go away and read up on the difference between force and work.

 

[Dave1987]

To date it has only run in service on one day. Most trips have been ECS move up and down the Harwich branch. Quite a few have been cancelled due to technical problems with the battery packs. Yesterday it went back to Ilford. It is due to have all the battery gear removed soon and put back into normal service. It was only a trial to see how viable the battery pack idea was. From what I have heard it will do around 50 miles on the batteries and then need 2 hours under the OHLE to charge them up again. Give it another few years and they will crack it. I can definitely see it being standard fitment on all EMU's and a solution to ending all diesel passenger trains sooner with strategic OHLE placement.