Being over-carried (hypothetical)

[Western Sunset]

I was on a Cambridge-bound Thameslink service last week. Wanted to get off at Finsbury Park, so on arrival pressed the button to open the door - nothing. Tried another door - still nothing.

Start to panic as don't want to end up at Stevenage (next stop). Thought about pressing the SOS button when it suddenly dawned - the platform is on both sides of the train at Finsbury Park but the doors only open on the other side. D'oh!

But what would've happened if I'd not realised that and ended-up in Stevenage (or wherever)? Do many get over-carried from Finsbury Park I wonder?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Similarly at Norwood Junction where in the slam door era, you could alight/join from Platforms 1 & 2 but on modern stock, the doors only open on Platform 1. Most fasts to London Bridge call at Platform 3 and thus use the FL into London but it has been known for them to call at Platform 1 - I've nearly been caught out...

Guess there's not a lot you can do except hope for audible announcements. I know on the Jubilee line for example, you get an announcement as to what side the doors open.

 

[cuccir]

You'd hope someone over carried by accident would be listened to fairly and have their ticket endorsed to return to the previous stop. But the National Rail Conditions of Travel apply:

13.4. If you travel beyond the destination shown on the Ticket, you will be treated as having joined the train without a valid Ticket for the additional part of your journey. Condition 9 sets out what may happen if you travel without a valid Ticket

And hence, unless any of the caveats about ticketless travel applied, you'd then be subject to whatever mechanisms the TOC chooses to use when someone travels without a valid ticket - penalty fares, prosecution, etc.

At which point it comes down to the question raised here many times before as to how guards or RPIs are meant to differentiate between genuine mistakes such as these, and deliberate fare evaders who have concocted a story...

 

[some bloke]

It sounds to me like a mistake that's in the more understandable range (though within reason, anything might be understandable given the circumstances).

Someone looking out of the window as the tran approaches the station can't necessarily be required to look at the other side as well. Once the train has stopped, their focus may reasonably be on the doors they are trying to open, rather than noticing/remembering there's another adjacent platform - especially as they know they are only likely to have a short time.

The answer to the question "what would have happened" can depend on how you handle it. There's a general question about how staff deal with genuine errors, and they may well be more receptive if the passenger takes the earliest opportunity to explain what's happened.

 

[radamfi]

You'd hope someone over carried by accident would be listened to fairly and have their ticket endorsed to return to the previous stop. But the National Rail Conditions of Travel apply:



And hence, unless any of the caveats about ticketless travel applied, you'd then be subject to whatever mechanisms the TOC chooses to use when someone travels without a valid ticket - penalty fares, prosecution, etc.

At which point it comes down to the question raised here many times before as to how guards or RPIs are meant to differentiate between genuine mistakes such as these, and deliberate fare evaders who have concocted a story...

Doors sometimes don't even open. A malfunction may have just occurred with the door and on the next trip the door is taped up so passengers know to use a different door. But that doesn't help you if you end up in London when you wanted to get off in Warrington. So not only are you massively inconvenienced, you get prosecuted.

 

[cuccir]

Doors sometimes don't even open. A malfunction may have just occurred with the door and on the next trip the door is taped up so passengers know to use a different door. But that doesn't help you if you end up in London when you wanted to get off in Warrington. So not only are you massively inconvenienced, you get prosecuted.

That's jumping the gun a bit. If there's evidence of a door malfunctioning, then clearly no-one should be prosecuted*

The point I was making was more about someone not noticing which side of the train they could leave from and therefore trying to use the wrong doors, or the classic falling asleep. Particularly in the latter case, while I don't think anyone should be prosecuted or even offered a Penalty Fare in these circumstances, I would have sympathy with the guard/RPI who is meant to be able to judge the difference between someone telling the truth, and someone for want of a better word bulls----ing them.

* If we want to get really technical here, I'm not sure if anything in the Bylaws would actually prevent prosecution in these circumstances, which is one of the many reasons that they are not particularly good legislation. I suppose someone might be able to make a defence under Bylaw 18.3, namely that "there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey". If you can't get off the train, you can't access the tickets, and therefore, there were no purchasing facilities available. But it's not where the person began their journey.... Obviously it should never reach that point and if a TOC did try prosecuting in those circumstances, then going to the media would be absolutely they right approach!

 

[radamfi]

What happens if the door malfunction is intermittent? So when you want to get off, the door won't open, but it works subsequently?

 

[BanburyBlue]

Not quite the same thing, but I was on a XC service to Leeds once, where some guy left it too late to pack his things and missed his Derby stop. By the time he noticed the train had arrived at Derby, and packed up his things (including small suitcase) there was a hoard of new passengers coming on. By the time he got to the door, it was already closed and the train was off. The train manager happened to come through a few moments later and told the guy he'd have to go to Chesterfield and back, and with no hesitation at all insisted that he bought a Derby to Chesterfield return.

It was a while ago, so I can't remember if there were clear 'the train is approaching Derby' announcements, or indeed whether the guy was asleep or what.

 

[mmh]

What happens if the door malfunction is intermittent? So when you want to get off, the door won't open, but it works subsequently?

No-one who didn't manage to get off a train at Warrington wouldn't say anything to a member of staff before they reached Euston!

This is a pretty far-fetched scenario. Every door on a Pendolino has another one right next to it in the adjacent carriage.

 

[radamfi]

No-one who didn't manage to get off a train at Warrington wouldn't say anything to a member of staff before they reached Euston!

This is a pretty far-fetched scenario. Every door on a Pendolino has another one right next to it in the adjacent carriage.

Far-fetched but not impossible. If you are at the end of the train, the next door is right at the other end of the carriage. When you tell the guard, he will happily sell you an Anytime Return from Warrington to London. Whereas the guard should instead stop the train extra at Crewe to let the passenger off (given that the door malfunction is not his fault), endorse the ticket to go via Crewe and advise the passenger to claim Delay Repay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No-one who didn't manage to get off a train at Warrington wouldn't say anything to a member of staff before they reached Euston!

This is a pretty far-fetched scenario. Every door on a Pendolino has another one right next to it in the adjacent carriage.

Well, see my thread about seemingly no doors opening on a train into Blackfriars at the weekend!

 

[cuccir]

What happens if the door malfunction is intermittent? So when you want to get off, the door won't open, but it works subsequently?

Yeah, I agree that this is not that impossible.

I've no idea of the nitty-gritty of how the electronics of a Pendolino or any other train work, so it might well be that even an intermittent fault is reported. But yes, Bylaw 18 is a poor piece of legislation in that it at least technically criminalises accidental ticketless travel such as this. Again, I think it's highly unlikely that someone in these circumstances would be prosecuted or (where in use) made to pay a Penalty Fare; the much greyer area (which was originally asked about) is where there is an understandable error or mistake on behalf of the passenger, but an error nonetheless.

 

[Western Sunset]

Re-my initial post above, I was sitting in the first class at the very rear of the train (as you can on Thameslink), so my first thought was that the rear door might not be opening as it was right at the end of the platform. Only after I moved forward into the next coach did I twig about the two-side platform at Finsbury Park. Fortunately, the train had quite a long dwell time so I got off OK in the end.

 

[najaB]

But what would've happened if I'd not realised that and ended-up in Stevenage (or wherever)? Do many get over-carried from Finsbury Park I wonder?

Nine out of ten guards (probably higher) would tell you to just hop off the train at the next station and make your way back.

 

[Chew Chew]

Nine out of ten guards (probably higher) would tell you to just hop off the train at the next station and make your way back.

That's was certainly my experience the other week when I fell asleep on the train and missed my stop, rather embarrassingly I was getting off at the next stop which was only 10 minutes away.

Luckily it was the same guard/inspector who was going to be on the next train back so he told me to spend 30 minutes in Montrose then get back on his train again.

 

[bb21]

Far-fetched but not impossible. If you are at the end of the train, the next door is right at the other end of the carriage. When you tell the guard, he will happily sell you an Anytime Return from Warrington to London. Whereas the guard should instead stop the train extra at Crewe to let the passenger off (given that the door malfunction is not his fault), endorse the ticket to go via Crewe and advise the passenger to claim Delay Repay.

Stop with the hysteria. You are choking me on my tears of laughter.

There is also no passenger door on a Pendolino without another one next to it.

Please, be realistic for one moment.

 

[Hadders]

Nine out of ten guards (probably higher) would tell you to just hop off the train at the next station and make your way back.

Unlikely to be a problem on Thameslink as there are no onboard staff and the chance of a ticket inspection is very low in my experience.

 

[davart]

This happened to me years ago. Missed my usual stop - can't remember exactly why. Was possibly a door malfunction.

Told the guard and he let me off at the next stop and radioed control to advise the train coming in the opposite direction.

Simply took that train back to my original destination.

Couldn't really fault that. Must admit, it was up North where people tend to be more laid back and take people at face value.

 

[Belperpete]

I had a similar experience many years back when I awoke from my doze to realise that we had stopped at my station, jumped up and rushed to the exit. Unfortunately in my panic I didn't realise that the door open button I was pressing was for the toilet door, not the exit door. Fortunately the guard was very understanding.

 

[Sprinter107]

If the train is still in the platform and the door wont open, and is just starting away, just press the pass comm.

 

[221129]

If the train is still in the platform and the door wont open, and is just starting away, just press the pass comm.

Being over carried is not an emergency.

 

[jumble]

I had a similar experience many years back when I awoke from my doze to realise that we had stopped at my station, jumped up and rushed to the exit. Unfortunately in my panic I didn't realise that the door open button I was pressing was for the toilet door, not the exit door. Fortunately the guard was very understanding.

I have been stopped from getting off a train by some jackass not moving his bicycle on a very full train
Fortunately it was London Metro and I was only over carried 1 couple of miles from Northolt Park to south Ruislip
Very annoying all the same

 

[Failed Unit]

Wonder if it happen on SDO stations such as Brookmans Park on the 717s. Yes the announcements say move forward but some people still push the button and hope the door will open. At least you can move forward on the 717s on the 387s you really are stuffed if you are in the wrong portion as GTR refuse to open the interset gangways.

 

[najaB]

If the train is still in the platform and the door wont open, and is just starting away, just press the pass comm.

Being over carried is not an emergency.

Please, could we not do this. Again.

 

[Sprinter107]

Being over carried is not an emergency.

My passengers do it often, and I'm ok with it. So whsts the problem. Mote hassel if it's the last train and the next station is unstaffed.

 

[faltskog36abba]

I was on a Cambridge-bound Thameslink service last week. Wanted to get off at Finsbury Park, so on arrival pressed the button to open the door - nothing. Tried another door - still nothing.

Start to panic as don't want to end up at Stevenage (next stop). Thought about pressing the SOS button when it suddenly dawned - the platform is on both sides of the train at Finsbury Park but the doors only open on the other side. D'oh!

But what would've happened if I'd not realised that and ended-up in Stevenage (or


wherever)? Do many get over-carried from Finsbury Park I wonder?

This happened to me once back in 2001-I could be a year or two out. The Hadfield/Glossop line was having some work done on the overhead wires I think- Trains were re-routed via Ashburys Phillips park into Victoria instead of Piccadilly. The train was a 150 and we went to Hattersley - I wasn't used to this line, So I was pressing the button on the wrong side of the train, Luckily the guard let us off after we shouted for help as the doors locked.

 

[Tom B]

A few years ago, when GNER were doing weekend diversions via Carlisle, opposite me were a couple of American tourists in their fifties, large suitcases and all. They obviously intended on alighting at Carlisle since they got up and went to the vestibule and stood by the door. And waited. Like lemons. Sure enough, the train moved off and they sought out the guard (or Senior Conductor, which I think is this week's name) and complained that the door didn't open. The guard explained that they had to lower the droplight and open it themselves, and started giving information about how to get back from Edinburgh. The passengers became more and more obnoxious in spite of the guard trying to be helpful in the face of a clear error on their part, and after some time threw the book at them and charged for two open returns (having initially seemingly having no intention of doing so).

 

[etr221]

Southern trains have a notice on the inside of doors saying they are automatic (I forget the exact wording) - which means what? Elsewhere, the doors do open 'automatically' (i.e. not as a result of passenger action): while regulars (and not so regulars) know they have to press a button, if someone is standing in front of it so it cannot easily be seen, it's not unreasonable for someone not used to the system to expect the doors to just open, and then be dismayed when they don't...

 

[Western Sunset]

In the US, wouldn't the car attendant open the door, put out the little footstool, and lead the passengers out?

 

[etr221]

In the US, wouldn't the car attendant open the door, put out the little footstool, and lead the passengers out?

In many places, yes.