• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Best and worst refurbished train since privatisation

Status
Not open for further replies.

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Did you ever travel on them? The VEPs should have been MK2 based admittedly but the older units (and certainly the CEPs/BEPs) were based on the then current B.R carriage design i.e. the MK1. They managed to provide efficient, comfortable and very reliable transport for 40+ years so they can’t have been that bad....
They were bad.

The CEPs and BEPs were indeed similar to contemporary Mark 1s, but the CIGs came after Mark 2s, and the refurbishment they got was very conservative. The design was woefully outdated by the time they were withdrawn.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,776
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
They were bad.

The CEPs and BEPs were indeed similar to contemporary Mark 1s, but the CIGs came after Mark 2s, and the refurbishment they got was very conservative. The design was woefully outdated by the time they were withdrawn.

What didn’t they have that something like a 312 did? The seating was (subject to the usual subjectivity) comfortable and apart from a fully loaded VEP reasonably spacious. I can’t recall them being draughty which is something we often hear moaned about.

This leaves two issues. Crashworthiness I can get, but equally the chances of being involved in a train crash are pretty minimal so this isn’t really something to be massively bothered about, it certainly never worried me. This just leaves accessibility, what was lacking in ambience was made up for by the personal service of the guard, so I wouldn’t say the overall experience was any worse than a fully accessible DOO train today.

What didn’t help was the way a certain operator with yellow and blue branding didn’t maintain its fleet that well, but this isn’t unique to Mk1s - the Southeastern 465s have been equally neglected over the years.

The biggest problem with slam door trains today would be people leaving doors open, but in those days it was second nature for people to close them, that’s just how it was.
 

DustyBin

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
3,632
Location
First Class
They were bad.

The CEPs and BEPs were indeed similar to contemporary Mark 1s, but the CIGs came after Mark 2s, and the refurbishment they got was very conservative. The design was woefully outdated by the time they were withdrawn.

The CIGs were introduced at the same time as the MK2, fair enough they had a long production run so later batches could easily have been MK2 based. The SR liked to keep things simple though!

They were outdated I wouldn’t argue about that but I found them comfortable and generally enjoyable to travel on. There are plenty of newer (very new in fact!) trains that offer an inferior travelling environment IMO.
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
6,161
Did you ever travel on them? The VEPs should have been MK2 based admittedly but the older units (and certainly the CEPs/BEPs) were based on the then current B.R carriage design i.e. the MK1. They managed to provide efficient, comfortable and very reliable transport for 40+ years so they can’t have been that bad....
Yes l did but only in their later years.

They were bad.

The CEPs and BEPs were indeed similar to contemporary Mark 1s, but the CIGs came after Mark 2s, and the refurbishment they got was very conservative. The design was woefully outdated by the time they were withdrawn.
Agreed. The Southern region always seemed to be a generation behind technology-wise.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,059
Location
Yorks
The CIGs were introduced at the same time as the MK2, fair enough they had a long production run so later batches could easily have been MK2 based. The SR liked to keep things simple though!

They were outdated I wouldn’t argue about that but I found them comfortable and generally enjoyable to travel on. There are plenty of newer (very new in fact!) trains that offer an inferior travelling environment IMO.

Very true observations.

It's also worth remembering that Mk2's were very top link in the 1960's and early 70's. The mk1 was still the main vehicle even for many inter city type journeys.
 

Recessio

Member
Joined
4 Aug 2019
Messages
667
Agreed. The Southern region always seemed to be a generation behind technology-wise.
Famously they reused lots of components. I think the 442s had the traction gear from their predecessors...

Speaking of which, I wasn't a fan of the most recent 442 refurb on SWR.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Very true observations.

It's also worth remembering that Mk2's were very top link in the 1960's and early 70's. The mk1 was still the main vehicle even for many inter city type journeys.
But the Southern built Mark 1 outline rolling stock until the mid-70s. Sure, lots of main line services still had Mark 1s on them at the time, but the last Southern Mark 1 vehicles were introduced into service after the last Mark 2 air-conditioned vehicles were built, and after the Mark 3 first appeared.

That's pretty unforgivable. It lumbered Southern passengers with obsolete junk decades after it had gone elsewhere.
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
9,297
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
None of the refurbs of those have been particularly good, to be honest. The Southern (GatEx) one didn't even clean the filth off the ceiling panels.

I think it’s best (worst) feature was Wolverton’s excellent removal of the SWT flower & sky vinyls placed on the walls of the ends of each carriage - Just rip it off. Don’t even clean up the sticky residue, or the little bits of ripped vinyl, or carry out any repairs to any chipped off paint. Nope, nothing. New seats, new carpets, but they couldn’t be bothered to clean the interiors as they went.

It’s a wonder why, with that and other horror stories (SWT 456s coming back with the coupler boxes either upside down or with no electronics etc) Wolverton is still used!
 

greatvoyager

Established Member
Joined
15 Aug 2019
Messages
2,426
Location
Exeter
But the Southern built Mark 1 outline rolling stock until the mid-70s. Sure, lots of main line services still had Mark 1s on them at the time, but the last Southern Mark 1 vehicles were introduced into service after the last Mark 2 air-conditioned vehicles were built, and after the Mark 3 first appeared.

That's pretty unforgivable. It lumbered Southern passengers with obsolete junk decades after it had gone elsewhere.
Seems like the southern region was behind compared to other areas.
 

321over360

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2015
Messages
199
for me the worst was the GA MK3 refurbishment due to the seats no longer feeling comfortable inside, in both classes as the pre refurbishment for what i call the chicken drumstick seats were alot more comfortable than the refurbished version, same with the 321s when the seats got changed into GA colours instead of the old FGE green seats, the seats werent as comfortable as they used to be
 

DustyBin

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
3,632
Location
First Class
But the Southern built Mark 1 outline rolling stock until the mid-70s. Sure, lots of main line services still had Mark 1s on them at the time, but the last Southern Mark 1 vehicles were introduced into service after the last Mark 2 air-conditioned vehicles were built, and after the Mark 3 first appeared.

That's pretty unforgivable. It lumbered Southern passengers with obsolete junk decades after it had gone elsewhere.

The Southern knew what worked and stuck with it, and that inevitably led to the use of old technology. The VEPs could (and probably should) have been MK2 based, I think that's a fair point, but at the same time what functional benefit would this have brought? They were perfect for the job they were built for, i.e. swallowing up huge crowds very quickly and transporting them at mainline speeds. They weren't obsolete junk, they were effective and reliable transport based on tried and tested technology. As you can tell, I'm a fan of them but objectively they weren't really junk were they, just a little 'old fashioned'.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,059
Location
Yorks
Spot on. It would have been better if the VEP's had been built to mk2 crashworthyness standards, but in all other respects they were perfectly good all round trains. They could squeeze you in if you needed a seat in the rush hour, otherwise they were perfectly comfortable to spread out in.

They were particularly pleasant after the NSE refurb.
 

danielnez1

Member
Joined
14 May 2012
Messages
164
Location
Seghill
They were bad.

The CEPs and BEPs were indeed similar to contemporary Mark 1s, but the CIGs came after Mark 2s, and the refurbishment they got was very conservative. The design was woefully outdated by the time they were withdrawn.

There was talk of a "Super CIG" refurbishment, with half of Class 438/4TC coach 76327 getting a prototype refurbishment as a demonstrator:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Refurb4TC001.jpg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Refurb4TC002.jpg
 

DustyBin

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
3,632
Location
First Class
I'm so glad they didn't ruin the CIG's.

Agreed, very few people would argue that the CEP refurbishment improved them once the shiny newness had worn off.

It would have been hard to make them worse.

I'm so glad they were turned into razor blades instead.

Out of interest (genuinely!) what was it you disliked so much about them? You clearly don’t like them which is fine, each to their own, but I don’t recall seeing any actual reasons other than “they were junk”.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,316
Agreed, very few people would argue that the CEP refurbishment improved them once the shiny newness had worn off.
Never had a pre-refurb CEP or BEP. But fitting IC70s to almost any train is going to improve it.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Never had a pre-refurb CEP or BEP. But fitting IC70s to almost any train is going to improve it.
That is subjective opinion, IC70 seating may have been deemed acceptable upon introduction but not from the 1990s onwards when they no longer met safety standards and more to the point still had fixed armrests which made it difficult to get in and out of the seat as opposed to more modern seating that has moveable armrests and meet the latest safety standards.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,059
Location
Yorks
Never had a pre-refurb CEP or BEP. But fitting IC70s to almost any train is going to improve it.

A modern train perhaps, but to my mind, you couldn't really improve upon the seating in a phase 1CIG. From photos, the pre-refurb CEP's appear to have had similar.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,316
A modern train perhaps, but to my mind, you couldn't really improve upon the seating in a phase 1CIG. From photos, the pre-refurb CEP's appear to have had similar.
No. Any train. Including rancid mark 1 based SR stock.
 

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,374
Location
Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
6,161
Never had a pre-refurb CEP or BEP. But fitting IC70s to almost any train is going to improve it.
It absolutely is/was not. Truly awful seats. Uncomfortable at the top where if you are 5'8"+ digs into your neck and those godawful fixed armrests.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Out of interest (genuinely!) what was it you disliked so much about them? You clearly don’t like them which is fine, each to their own, but I don’t recall seeing any actual reasons other than “they were junk”.
The main issue I have with the CIGs is how conservatively and meanly specified they were, lumbering the Southern with badly aged and increasingly unsafe stock for decades.

For a start, the Mark 1 bodyshell was a serious safety issue, and they were built over a decade after the Mark 2 was available. Even the Mark 3s appeared before the CIGs and VEPs were all built. I know people say accidents are rare, but they were much more common in the past, and we know in the aftermath of disasters like Clapham that the method of construction was a significant factor in the number of deaths and injuries. They crumbled like Coke cans in accidents.

Next, continued use of sliding vents, no pressure ventilation or aircon, no ergonomic seats like the Mark 2s, tungsten lights and no PA until they were refurbished, poor accessibility, draughty interiors that were like saunas in the summer, no tables, no airline seats, no disabled access...the list goes on.

While I agree that a lot of modern features were rare or unavailable when they were new, by the 21st century these things were horrifically obsolete and unsuitable for the job, long after other regions got much better stock.

The idea that these were the pinnacle of perfection really annoys me. It's blinkered, rose-tinted enthusiast nostalgia that shows no understanding of the needs of ordinary passengers.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,059
Location
Yorks
The main issue I have with the CIGs is how conservatively and meanly specified they were, lumbering the Southern with badly aged and increasingly unsafe stock for decades.

For a start, the Mark 1 bodyshell was a serious safety issue, and they were built over a decade after the Mark 2 was available. Even the Mark 3s appeared before the CIGs and VEPs were all built. I know people say accidents are rare, but they were much more common in the past, and we know in the aftermath of disasters like Clapham that the method of construction was a significant factor in the number of deaths and injuries. They crumbled like Coke cans in accidents.

Next, continued use of sliding vents, no pressure ventilation or aircon, no ergonomic seats like the Mark 2s, tungsten lights and no PA until they were refurbished, poor accessibility, draughty interiors that were like saunas in the summer, no tables, no airline seats, no disabled access...the list goes on.

While I agree that a lot of modern features were rare or unavailable when they were new, by the 21st century these things were horrifically obsolete and unsuitable for the job, long after other regions got much better stock.

The idea that these were the pinnacle of perfection really annoys me. It's blinkered, rose-tinted enthusiast nostalgia that shows no understanding of the needs of ordinary passengers.

The last CIG's/BIG's were built in 1970, which I believe was before mk3's were being introduced. It was only the last batch of VEP's that were built after, and these were, to all intents and purposes, a follow on order. It would have been an unusual point at which to introduce a completely different type of rolling stock onto the scene.

The points about sliding ventilators and tungsten lighting are very much subjective. Sliding ventilators are far more effective at keeping out draughts than hoppers (remember, the first mk2's also had sliding ventilators). I for one find tungsten lighting a lot warmer and relaxing compared to flourescent tubes. I do think it's a pity that the individual reading lamps of the phase 1 CIG's weren't brought forward to the phase 2's.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top