Best and worst refurbished train since privatisation

[Wolfie]

The main issue I have with the CIGs is how conservatively and meanly specified they were, lumbering the Southern with badly aged and increasingly unsafe stock for decades.

For a start, the Mark 1 bodyshell was a serious safety issue, and they were built over a decade after the Mark 2 was available. Even the Mark 3s appeared before the CIGs and VEPs were all built. I know people say accidents are rare, but they were much more common in the past, and we know in the aftermath of disasters like Clapham that the method of construction was a significant factor in the number of deaths and injuries. They crumbled like Coke cans in accidents.

Next, continued use of sliding vents, no pressure ventilation or aircon, no ergonomic seats like the Mark 2s, tungsten lights and no PA until they were refurbished, poor accessibility, draughty interiors that were like saunas in the summer, no tables, no airline seats, no disabled access...the list goes on.

While I agree that a lot of modern features were rare or unavailable when they were new, by the 21st century these things were horrifically obsolete and unsuitable for the job, long after other regions got much better stock.

The idea that these were the pinnacle of perfection really annoys me. It's blinkered, rose-tinted enthusiast nostalgia that shows no understanding of the needs of ordinary passengers.

Absolutely spot on. If passengers want nostalgia they can go to a heritage railway. For their daily travel though....

Given half a chance some on here would still have Stephenson's Rocket in frontline service...

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed, very few people would argue that the CEP refurbishment improved them once the shiny newness had worn off.





Out of interest (genuinely!) what was it you disliked so much about them? You clearly don’t like them which is fine, each to their own, but I don’t recall seeing any actual reasons other than “they were junk”.

I do think that some on this forum are blinded by modernity.

 

[Wolfie]

I do think that some on this forum are blinded by modernity.

Possibly. I'm happy to concede that if you concede that others are blinded by nostalgia and impracticality.

 

[yorksrob]

Possibly. I'm happy to concede that if you concede that others are blinded by nostalgia and impracticality.

No doubt some people are.

(Not me though ).

 

[cactustwirly]

The best and worst was to be found on the same train at the same time, the GWR HST.

First Class was, and still is on the Scotrail sets, probably the best to be found anywhere.

Standard was dystopian and completely disrespectful to the long distance passenger: terrible ambience with rows and rows of airline seats crammed in, terrible legroom, terrible lighting, terrible colour scheme. The transformation brought by the Scotrail refurb on the same coaches and the same seats in a different layout, and that shows some regard to the user, is a fantastic turnaround.

I quite liked the FGW HST standard interior, ok the lights were a bit bright but on the whole a nice ambience.

The airline seats legroom was very good ( as a tall person myself) I had no issues. Much better than the Pendolinos and Voyagers where I have major problems.

You also have to remember the Bristol and Cardiff intercity services these sets were designed for were extremely busy. Where absolute seating capacity was better than providing luggage racks and lots of tables. These did the job very well. Having almost 100 more seats than the 9 car East Coast sets

 

[Journeyman]

Absolutely spot on. If passengers want nostalgia they can go to a heritage railway. For their daily travel though....

Given half a chance some on here would still have Stephenson's Rocket in frontline service...

Exactly. Why don't we send six year olds back down mines while we're at it?

No doubt some people are.

(Not me though ).

Then why do you keep banging on about how great CIGs, VEPs and EPBs were?

The last CIG's/BIG's were built in 1970, which I believe was before mk3's were being introduced. It was only the last batch of VEP's that were built after, and these were, to all intents and purposes, a follow on order. It would have been an unusual point at which to introduce a completely different type of rolling stock onto the scene.

The last CIGs were delivered in 1972, by which time aircon Mark 2s were common, and the prototype Mark 3 had appeared. The very last Mark 1 vehicles built new were the second batch of REP motor coaches in 1974. Admittedly they had to run with converted loco hauled coaches so I can understand the need for those to stick to Mark 1 outline, but there's no decent excuse for the rest.

It would have been possible to change VEP production to Mark 2 standards easily. A design already existed - the Class 310. It would not have been difficult to produce a third rail version with gangwayed cabs and full backwards compatibility with all other EPB-equipped stock.

 

[yorksrob]

Exactly. Why don't we send six year olds back down mines while we're at it?


Then why do you keep banging on about how great CIGs, VEPs and EPBs were?

My observations are a result of evaluating around forty years of train travel.

You'll notice that I go on about seat comfort, lighting, ventilation, ambience etc in relation to those unit types, as I do with more modern types. I evaluate them all in the same way, which is why there are some modern unit types (158, 185 etc) that I prefer over others as well.

Exactly. Why don't we send six year olds back down mines while we're at it?


Then why do you keep banging on about how great CIGs, VEPs and EPBs were?


The last CIGs were delivered in 1972, by which time aircon Mark 2s were common, and the prototype Mark 3 had appeared. The very last Mark 1 vehicles built new were the second batch of REP motor coaches in 1974. Admittedly they had to run with converted loco hauled coaches so I can understand the need for those to stick to Mark 1 outline, but there's no decent excuse for the rest.

It would have been possible to change VEP production to Mark 2 standards easily. A design already existed - the Class 310. It would not have been difficult to produce a third rail version with gangwayed cabs and full backwards compatibility with all other EPB-equipped stock.

My mistake - '72 was slightly later than I'd thought, but my point still stands. The mk 3 was experimental at that stage.

I think maybe if the Southern had adopted mk 2 at the time of the Bournemouth line electrification, you might have had something akin to the 312's on the Eastern Region. In terms of passenger environment, I don't think that these would have been an improvement over the phase1 CIG interior.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It absolutely is/was not. Truly awful seats. Uncomfortable at the top where if you are 5'8"+ digs into your neck and those godawful fixed armrests.

Agreed, awful. I'd rather sit in a Sophia for 4 hours than an IC70 for one. And that's saying something.

 

[Journeyman]

Agreed, awful. I'd rather sit in a Sophia for 4 hours than an IC70 for one. And that's saying something.

Definitely. I don't get the nostalgia for the IC70 at all. It was awkward as hell getting in and out of a table seat. Last time I travelled in an IC70 Mark 3 a few years ago, I was really struck by how dated it looked and felt. I'm glad they've gone.

 

[43096]

Agreed, awful. I'd rather sit in a Sophia for 4 hours than an IC70 for one. And that's saying something.

To be fair, you’re the “Lady Whiteadder” of the forum... you’d rather sit on a spike. Two would be an extravagance.

 

[Journeyman]

To be fair, you’re the “Lady Whiteadder” of the forum... you’d rather sit on a spike. Two would be an extravagance.

Wicked child! *slaps*

 

[mightyena]

Definitely. I don't get the nostalgia for the IC70 at all. It was awkward as hell getting in and out of a table seat. Last time I travelled in an IC70 Mark 3 a few years ago, I was really struck by how dated it looked and felt. I'm glad they've gone.

Agreed, awful. I'd rather sit in a Sophia for 4 hours than an IC70 for one. And that's saying something.

I agree. I remember having a journey from St Pancras to Leicester on one of the EMT HSTs with IC70s. I can honestly say I'd have rather done the journey on a 700.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree that the 2nd class IC70's are a bit restrictive perhaps, but the first class ones were superb.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that the 2nd class IC70's are a bit restrictive perhaps, but the first class ones were superb.

They force my legs straight forwards, directly into the pointy supports for the table. Horrid. I can see how someone quite skinny might like them, though.

The First Class ones are tolerable, but the "InterCity 80" used in the Mk3bs are loads better both in appearance and comfort.

 

[py_megapixel]

I quite liked the FGW HST standard interior, ok the lights were a bit bright but on the whole a nice ambience.

From an aesthetic perspective it was horrid IMO. I wish that they had made the walls either a plain white, or something more subdued than FirstGroup colours. It felt like they'd put prominence of their brand over the onboard ambience. This combined with the harsh fluorescent lighting made it feel like a slightly outdated supermarket or something - not a great impression on what is supposed to be an inter-city service.

The 800s have the opposite problem. They're's barely any branding whatsoever. It feels bland and generic.

TPE is an excellent example of how another brand with somewhat garish colours incorporated their colours into a refurb tastefully.

The airline seats legroom was very good ( as a tall person myself) I had no issues. Much better than the Pendolinos and Voyagers where I have major problems.

Yes, I agree (though the high seat backs did make it feel a little confined). And that's one thing the 80x get absolutely spot-on too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 800s have the opposite problem. They're's barely any branding whatsoever. It feels bland and generic

The lime green stripe and handrails say "1990s bus" to me.

The difference made by just adding a bit of colour - LNER and TPE - is massive.

 

[Mikey C]

The lime green stripe and handrails say "1990s bus" to me.

The difference made by just adding a bit of colour - LNER and TPE - is massive.

Beige and brown with a touch of green, yuk

 

[bramling]

Beige and brown with a touch of green, yuk

Must say I find both the GWR and LNER IEP interiors absolutely rancid. The LNER first class in particular has all the ambience of an early 1980s motorway service station diner.

 

[py_megapixel]

Must say I find both the GWR and LNER IEP interiors absolutely rancid. The LNER first class in particular has all the ambience of an early 1980s motorway service station diner.

I wouldn't say rancid so much as uninspired. The GWR interior minus the tacky lime green would be perfect if you wanted a train which resembled a stereotypical boring office environment. Not actively disgusting, but at the same time unimaginative and not especially comfortable.

As it is, though, I prefer trains to resemble comfortable and well-designed equipment designed to get me from A to B.

 

[yorksrob]

They force my legs straight forwards, directly into the pointy supports for the table. Horrid. I can see how someone quite skinny might like them, though.

The First Class ones are tolerable, but the "InterCity 80" used in the Mk3bs are loads better both in appearance and comfort.

I'm guessing they're the ones on the Anglia mk 3's ? I never liked those as much. They leant back a bit too much for me.

 

[Journeyman]

I'm guessing they're the ones on the Anglia mk 3's ? I never liked those as much. They leant back a bit too much for me.

No, the IC80 seat was based on the design used on the APT. I think most, if not all, the Mark 3bs ended up on the Night Riviera when Virgin were done with them (it was a small build). They've all been extensively altered now.

 

[yorksrob]

No, the IC80 seat was based on the design used on the APT. I think most, if not all, the Mark 3bs ended up on the Night Riviera when Virgin were done with them (it was a small build). They've all been extensively altered now.

Ah, well I have sat on the APT at crewe, but the seats seemed a bit hard for me !

 

[py_megapixel]

Ah, well I have sat on the APT at crewe, but the seats seemed a bit hard for me !

I have tried to sit in the APT at Crewe, and I physically couldn't get my legs behind the seat in front! (Granted, I have long legs, but still it's the worst legroom I've ever seen on an inter-city train)

 

[43096]

No, the IC80 seat was based on the design used on the APT. I think most, if not all, the Mark 3bs ended up on the Night Riviera when Virgin were done with them (it was a small build). They've all been extensively altered now.

Ummmmmm, no. The IC80 seats were used in the Mark 3B builds of 38 FOs and 3 BFOs. The BFOs are on the Night Riviera but now have new seats. The Anglia first class was all of 3B FOs (bar those in the buffet cars) and was IC80s. So “yorksrob” is correct - Anglia fixed the seats in the reclined position, presumably because the reclining mechanisms were broken, but didn’t make the effort to either repair them or fix them in a better position. Shame, as they were nice vehicles otherwise.

 

[yorksrob]

Ummmmmm, no. The IC80 seats were used in the Mark 3B builds of 38 FOs and 3 BFOs. The BFOs are on the Night Riviera but now have new seats. The Anglia first class was all of 3B FOs (bar those in the buffet cars) and was IC80s. So “yorksrob” is correct - Anglia fixed the seats in the reclined position, presumably because the reclining mechanisms were broken, but didn’t make the effort to either repair them or fix them in a better position. Shame, as they were nice vehicles otherwise.

That's interesting, thanks. Yes, in other respects they were nice after their refurb.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, the IC80 seat was based on the design used on the APT. I think most, if not all, the Mark 3bs ended up on the Night Riviera when Virgin were done with them (it was a small build). They've all been extensively altered now.

No, the Anglia sets do have IC80s. Unfortunately they disabled (plated over) the recliner and left them stuck on full recline, meaning they do lean too far back.

I have tried to sit in the APT at Crewe, and I physically couldn't get my legs behind the seat in front! (Granted, I have long legs, but still it's the worst legroom I've ever seen on an inter-city train)

I thought they were all tables? Is there also an airline row like original Mk3s?

They do make Pendolinos look spacious from the pictures I've seen, but I guess TASS balises weren't really viable back then.

 

[fgwrich]

Ummmmmm, no. The IC80 seats were used in the Mark 3B builds of 38 FOs and 3 BFOs. The BFOs are on the Night Riviera but now have new seats. The Anglia first class was all of 3B FOs (bar those in the buffet cars) and was IC80s. So “yorksrob” is correct - Anglia fixed the seats in the reclined position, presumably because the reclining mechanisms were broken, but didn’t make the effort to either repair them or fix them in a better position. Shame, as they were nice vehicles otherwise.

And just to make it more odd, the ex Virgin IC70 and IC80's that arrived with the Mk3s on the Night Rivera were replaced with FC IC70s from the HST fleet undergoing their refurbishment at the time, now of course replaced with Transcal (Primarius design). Meanwhile bits of 10232 live in my garage...

 

[py_megapixel]

I thought they were all tables? Is there also an airline row like original Mk3s?

I'm not 100% sure but looking at some online photos, it looks like there might be two airline rows, both at the same end, in each carriage, then the rest is tables.
Honestly I'm not sure the tables would have been much more comfortable as they look very low, so long-legged passengers such as myself would have their knees jammed in somewhat.

 

[40129]

I remember travelling from Nottingham to Leicester about 4-5 years ago and being pleased when I saw an IC125 turn up rather than a Meridian. That was until I sat down.

That day I'd travelled on Turbostars, Desiros and even a Parry People Mover and I'm sorry to say that the IC125 was the least comfortable.

 

[Recessio]

Does the Class 424 count as a refurbishment?

British Rail Class 424 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org