Bizarre Experience on East Coast

[Tibbs]

I don't think that's right, because 18(3) in the byelaws removes the guilt if there is no way to buy a ticket where the journey started and, in terms of what is usually in practical terms the reason a byelaw 18 offence is detected, the OP wasn't asked for a ticket during the journey.

But JonMorris is saying that the ticket office at the destination should have been open, at which point he's committed an offence by not paying when there was an opportunity to do so.

And remember, based on the Glossop example already linked, the ease of finding such an opportunity is irrelevant.

 

[jon0844]

If you wrote to EC about not being able to buy a ticket, I really can't see them writing back that they now intend to prosecute.

That would make the story of the year for the Daily Mail!

 

[Chapeltom]

I'm sure it's more than that .. there are many times i've bought the return fare at the destination ticket office and they seem astonished that i didn't just buy a single on the way home.

Many guards simply do not bother on the penultimate/last train where I am. Funnily enough (we all had valid tickets by the way) me and two friends were going home last Wednesday on the last train and I said to my mate from the West Midlands, they'll be no inspection on this train unless its a certain guard, it just doesn't happen. Sure enough, it was the said guard and he made a full ticket inspection, and good for him.

 

[NJTom]

the one guard who does always check, and make sure he sells everyone a ticket is the nicest and most helpful one on the route. Even though, most of the time he tries to held someone out and save them some money it just falls on deaf and perhaps dumb ears.

 

[1e10]

i'll call it.
in your situation, if i got to kings cross, and the barriers were unstaffed and open, I would have walked up to the barriers, had a good look about to make sure there definitely is no staff/RPI's about. If not, then i would have walked through the barriers and out the station without paying a penny.
I'm not for fare dodging, but if the railway company has chosen not to bother trying to charge me for a ticket, then it's not my fault if i don't get to buy a ticket.
you saved yourself £90 despite you wanting to be able to pay for the ticket, use it for beer money or a nice meal somewhere! Once you are through the barriers, you're journey is over, and the railway company should have given you an opportunity before then for you to pay.
I don't intentionally dodge fares. I will always pay my fare before or during the journey. But if they have made it actually impossible to pay for a fare like in your journey, then so be it, i chalk it up to a free journey. It rarely ever happens, and consider how much i pay for my season ticket, its the least that could happen!
It only would have gone into lining the pockets of the shareholders anyway!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


how? he hasn't stolen anything.

They haven't made it impossible for him to purchase a ticket. He used the service and should have paid using the ticket office at his destination station.

 

[jon0844]

How many London terminals have a night window though? It's fair to say that not a lot of people might realise, especially as the night window isn't anywhere near the main ticket purchasing facilities and you could miss the sign (and that's assuming it has been put out) to say there's one by platform 8. Even then, I think you'll need to press a bell to get someone to come there too.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Most likely the guard did not have a functional ticket machine, it could have run out of stock, have a flat battery, or a fault.

I think too much of a defence is placed on this argument. I use Avantix machines every working day and can't remember the last time I had one fail on me to the point I couldn't use it. And if it is not impossible to replace batteries at various locations en route if needed (although this doesn't apply everywhere).

A certain amount of it is, as has already been pointed out, laziness. There is also the issue (as discussed on another thread) of conflict avoidance, and how the company will always favour the passenger viewpoint in any conflict, no matter how hyped up the complaint actually is. So it is far easier to do nothing and avoid getting grief from management for upsetting people.

I have done long journeys at various times of the day all around the country, as well as lots of local journeys, and whilst I always have a ticket I can understand why people don't buy tickets - the level of ticket checks, especially on intercity TOCs is woefully inadequate. I have made it from West Yorkshire all the way to Sandling in Kent without so much as having to operate a ticket gate, let alone having a check, before now. (start at ungated station on through service to Kings Cross. No ticket check all the way. Gates open at Kings Cross. gates open at St Pancras. No ticket checks on HS1. Change platforms at Ashford without passing through barriers. No ticket check on South Eastern. Exit at ungated Sandling without anyone or anything having examined my ticket.).

 

[Tibbs]

If you wrote to EC about not being able to buy a ticket, I really can't see them writing back that they now intend to prosecute.

That would make the story of the year for the Daily Mail!

I couldn't see how approaching a member of railway staff asking about the location of a ticket office could lead to prosecution, but examples are here on the forum. Likewise prosecuting over 20p.

You're probably right, but why expose yourself to unnecessary risk?

 

[island]

I wouldn't write, clear conscience or not. If there's a ticket window and it was open at the time you arrived, you're guilty of a byelaw 18 offence.

No, you aren't. Possibly an RRA offence, but not byelaw 18.

 

[MichaelAMW]

But JonMorris is saying that the ticket office at the destination should have been open, at which point he's committed an offence by not paying when there was an opportunity to do so.

And remember, based on the Glossop example already linked, the ease of finding such an opportunity is irrelevant.

Yes, possibly an offence, as Island has just mentioned, but not byelaw 18, as you originally suggested.

 

[Tibbs]

No, you aren't. Possibly an RRA offence, but not byelaw 18.

Even more of a reason to keep your mouth shut then.

 

[34D]

No, you aren't. Possibly an RRA offence, but not byelaw 18.

Maybe not that, but surely a request to send the fare due?

Personally I would send a nice donation to a preserved railway of your choice and forget the matter.

 

[yorkie]

Are you not returning? If you are, the difference in fares is £1 in this case.

If you are not returning, then in future you may wish to consider a 'half price' single from Leeds - London by purchasing before 2359 the day before travel on the East Coast website.

The through off-peak single from Bingley to London Terminals is very poor value indeed.

I don't think there's any more anyone can add to this thread now, it's just going round in circles and getting very hypothetical.

 

[BestWestern]

Surely the train could not have left Leeds without a guard on board ? And the train wouldn't have been that busy at that time of night? Given that many barriered stations are left open late at night, you would have thought a sweep through the train would have been a sensible move ?

Many staff - myself included - would often suggest that, actually, trying to sell tickets "late at night" when the barriers are left open is anything but sensible! Patrol the train, yes, without exception. But grip tix? No, not often. Just not worth the potential aggro/assaults etc sadly. Most TOCs would prefer that you didn't put yourself at risk over revenue that they in all honesty couldn't really care less about. Show a presence, get the train there on time, and leave it at that. Most trouble won't kick off if you don't ask for tickets/money, and once it does kick off you have precious little help at that time of the day, so best not to go there a lot of the time. It's not right I know, but it's how it is sadly.

Most likely the guard did not have a functional ticket machine, it could have run out of stock, have a flat battery, or a fault.

Absolutely not an excuse to spend the entire journey hiding from the punters! Machine or not, the bare minimum is that you walk through your train, make yourself visible to the passengers and available to assist should they require it. Far too many Guards appear to think that the only reason for going through is to sell tickets, and if they have no machine they are being paid to sit in the back cab/van the whole shift, frankly it's out of order and will do us no favours when DOO comes knocking! I assume from the OP's description that the Guard didn't appear at any time, for revenue or any other reason.

 

[Flamingo]

100% agree with all the above points.

 

[Be3G]

Can I ask, where is the obligation spelled out to purchase a ticket at one's destination if there've been no prior opportunities? Prior to this thread, I probably wouldn't have ever purchased a ticket at the destination as to me it's adding an unnecessary delay to my journey through no fault of my own. (I would, however, make proper attempts to purchase from the guard or, if viable, at an interchange.) However, if that would be an offence, then clearly I need to adjust my thinking. In which case, how long should I be expected to delay myself at the destination?

 

[Flamingo]

As long as it takes to pay for your journey, if facilities are available, I would say.

 

[Tom B]

In the case that the guard's machine has broken down are they not issued with carbonless books, as bus drivers are, as "emergency tickets"?

 

[bb21]

In the case that the guard's machine has broken down are they not issued with carbonless books, as bus drivers are, as "emergency tickets"?

Not as far as I am aware, no.

Not all bus drivers these days carry emergency tickets, either. I have seen my local Arriva drivers let people go free when the ticket machine breaks down.

 

[Flamingo]

In the case that the guard's machine has broken down are they not issued with carbonless books, as bus drivers are, as "emergency tickets"?

No. Apart from anything else, it would be too open to abuse and fraud, I would imagine. Processing cards would be near-impossible as well.

The closest would be an Unpaid Fare Notice, and imagine the whinging (no to mention the threads on here) of the "I wanted to pay, and now have to go to the post-office with a cheque" variety!

 

[island]

There are such tickets in circulation but I do not think they are a general issue item. Miseryrail seems to use them quite a bit.

 

[1e10]

In the case that the guard's machine has broken down are they not issued with carbonless books, as bus drivers are, as "emergency tickets"?

Not as far as I am aware, no.

Not all bus drivers these days carry emergency tickets, either. I have seen my local Arriva drivers let people go free when the ticket machine breaks down.

First Bus in my area don't carry such books. Travel is free if the ticket machine is broken.

 

[theblackwatch]

Not as far as I am aware, no.

Not all bus drivers these days carry emergency tickets, either. I have seen my local Arriva drivers let people go free when the ticket machine breaks down.

This happens here as well - only last week I got a free bus ride (as did everyone else on board). I almost went to the effort of trying to work out the vehicle's diagram so I could hopefully go back for free as well.

 

[dcsprior]

First Bus in my area don't carry such books. Travel is free if the ticket machine is broken.

I've been on Lothian Buses I've a number of times when the driver has been unable to give tickets - most often just because it has ran out of roll. When this has happened, passengers buying singles put their money in the hopper as normal, those buying day-tickets are told to pay on their next bus.

Possibly the fact that the driver can't touch the money on Lothian means its safe to take payment without issuing a ticket - whereas on other buses where the driver holds the money they'd risk being accused of fiddling?

 

[BestWestern]

First Bus in my area don't carry such books. Travel is free if the ticket machine is broken.

I've been on Lothian Buses I've a number of times when the driver has been unable to give tickets - most often just because it has ran out of roll. When this has happened, passengers buying singles put their money in the hopper as normal, those buying day-tickets are told to pay on their next bus.

Possibly the fact that the driver can't touch the money on Lothian means its safe to take payment without issuing a ticket - whereas on other buses where the driver holds the money they'd risk being accused of fiddling?

Yes, definitely. Taking payment without issuing tickets is a cardinal sin for which you can expect to be sacked from most firms. Having said that, some companies may issue the emergency ticket books already mentioned above for such as occasion.

 

[SephenWorceste]

Guards and Train Manager seem so variable even on the same route. I did Worcester to Moreton in Marsh two weeks back. No show in coach G. Other times I have hardly had chance to sit down. Also no announcements at all. No welcome to the train or details of which doors to use at short platforms. That annoyed me.

On the Cotswold Line at many stations your only opportunity to buy a ticket is on the train. That time I did have a ticket (I purchased online earlier) but in the past I have had free first class journeys on that line. Do the train operators not care about the lost revenue? I wish I was in that sort of business.

I have seen a guard catch two people on Cross Country. Unrelated but both in the same carriage as me. Both had tickets but no Young Person Railcards. It took about quarter an hour each of excuses and arguing but the guard got a large sum of money out of each of them. Enough to make me wince. They definitely felt they had been wronged. Well done to the guard.

A culture has developed where many people dont expect to have to pay and are quite open about it. By appearing not to care the train companies are only allowing this to become the norm. Surely in the long run that cannot be good for the railway.

 

[pjnathanail]

I've been on Lothian Buses I've a number of times when the driver has been unable to give tickets - most often just because it has ran out of roll. When this has happened, passengers buying singles put their money in the hopper as normal, those buying day-tickets are told to pay on their next bus.

Possibly the fact that the driver can't touch the money on Lothian means its safe to take payment without issuing a ticket - whereas on other buses where the driver holds the money they'd risk being accused of fiddling?

Is it not compulsory to issue a ticket as it acts as the passengers receipt for the money they have paid?

 

[34D]

Is it not compulsory to issue a ticket as it acts as the passengers receipt for the money they have paid?

That was my understanding, in England anyway.

Believe we have a member who droives for lothian, so perhaps he can clarify either way?

 

[island]

I am not aware of a law requiring a receipt be issued for a payment received in general. There is the requirement that a VAT-registered person issue a VAT invoice for a transaction with another VAT-registered person, but most passengers are not VAT-registered and from memory there is no VAT on passenger travel anyway.

 

[Deerfold]

I am not aware of a law requiring a receipt be issued for a payment received in general. There is the requirement that a VAT-registered person issue a VAT invoice for a transaction with another VAT-registered person, but most passengers are not VAT-registered and from memory there is no VAT on passenger travel anyway.

There is no VAT on bus or train travel. That does not stop a VAT receipt being issued.