Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[GRALISTAIR]

so if there was a hypothetical problem taking out Parkside feeder station at 1730 on a Thursday night in February.
what would actually happen out on the railway?

​

Very reduced service fed from Catterall

 

[furnessvale]

Very reduced service fed from Catterall

And how often would that be needed as compared to, say, a derailment at a key junction which would equally sprag up the service?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

And how often would that be needed as compared to, say, a derailment at a key junction which would equally sprag up the service?

I have absolutely not a clue sorry. Anyway, all moot after December because we will have Heyrod by then.

 

[Ken H]

the other issue is can the grid supply more trains?
Today we have 5gig of wind -it quite windy - and its not that cold so demand is low. And its a weekend - less electric trains and people cook at lunchtime rather than the evening. and most workplaces are closed.
I have seen demand up at 50gig and we dont have Eggborough now.
here you can see the state of the grid and historical graphs.
https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

 

[furnessvale]

I have absolutely not a clue sorry. Anyway, all moot after December because we will have Heyrod by then.

Sorry, it was a bit of a rhetorical question aimed in the direction of "we shouldn't stop running trains because of what may theoretically go wrong", safety issues excepted of course.

 

[Elecman]

so if there was a hypothetical problem taking out Parkside feeder station at 1730 on a Thursady night in February.
what would actually happen out on the railway?

A fairly rapid refeeding of the network and an urgent reduction in the electric haulage train plan

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Sorry, it was a bit of a rhetorical question aimed in the direction of "we shouldn't stop running trains because of what may theoretically go wrong", safety issues excepted of course.

Oh absolutely - I am totally on the same page as you. A total grid feed failure or a total junction failure etc are rare events. So we should never go down the path of what you outlined.

 

[ic31420]

the other issue is can the grid supply more trains?
Today we have 5gig of wind -it quite windy - and its not that cold so demand is low. And its a weekend - less electric trains and people cook at lunchtime rather than the evening. and most workplaces are closed.
I have seen demand up at 50gig and we dont have Eggborough now.
here you can see the state of the grid and historical graphs.
https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

What is the maximum total load railway traction.places on the grid now?

 

[td97]

the other issue is can the grid supply more trains?
Today we have 5gig of wind -it quite windy - and its not that cold so demand is low. And its a weekend - less electric trains and people cook at lunchtime rather than the evening. and most workplaces are closed.
I have seen demand up at 50gig and we dont have Eggborough now.
here you can see the state of the grid and historical graphs.
https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

The entire electrified network is ~1% of UK electricity demand. A few 1MW 319s tootling on stopping services are not going to cause your lights to go out. There is a thorough and lengthy (2-3 years I think) feasibility and certification process for any customer who wants to connect a reasonably large load to the National Grid to ensure the local network is adequate.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The entire electrified network is ~1% of UK electricity demand.

That surprises me. I would have thought it was quite a bit more than that

 

[Jonny]

Official Video of the Pendo test from NR

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....es-through-bolton-as-upgrade-nears-completion

The accompanying text contains the following information which may be of interest

"This week’s test runs are the first of two phases to check new electrical infrastructure works correctly. The second, in early January, will check the infrastructure can handle faster train speeds for improved passenger journey times."

Is that going to be the beginning of the end for 185s on the route, as they cannot use the MU speeds and therefore may be a liability?

 

[TBSchenker]

185s are on borrowed time anyway, used only by Northern .They should have finished in May last year but were extended, now expected to finish May 2019 . Don't forget Sprinters will still be going to Clitheroe so they'll be doing 75mph between Salford and Bolton too .

 

[DJH1971]

185s are on borrowed time anyway, used only by Northern .They should have finished in May last year but were extended, now expected to finish May 2019 . Don't forget Sprinters will still be going to Clitheroe so they'll be doing 75mph between Salford and Bolton too .

185s are also used by TPE

 

[59CosG95]

185s are also used by TPE

Obviously, but TPE haven't served the route for many months (due to the electrification work!), preferring to send their 350s (and 185s) non-stop via Chat Moss, WBQ, and Wigan NW. When TPE do return to the Bolton corridor (that is, if they do), they'll be using 397s almost exclusively until the 350s have gone.

 

[notlob.divad]

Obviously, but TPE haven't served the route for many months (due to the electrification work!), preferring to send their 350s (and 185s) non-stop via Chat Moss, WBQ, and Wigan NW. When TPE do return to the Bolton corridor (that is, if they do), they'll be using 397s almost exclusively until the 350s have gone.

In Bold. When did that happen?

 

[jonesy3001]

In Bold. When did that happen?

The TPEs have never gone past Bank quay.

 

[TBSchenker]

Obviously, but TPE haven't served the route for many months (due to the electrification work!), preferring to send their 350s (and 185s) non-stop via Chat Moss, WBQ, and Wigan NW. When TPE do return to the Bolton corridor (that is, if they do), they'll be using 397s almost exclusively until the 350s have gone.

I omitted to mention the only regular 185 operation via Bolton is for Northern .As you kindly highlighted, the 185s that occasionally work the TPE Scottish services run via Eccles and Wigan . It is widely accepted that TPE won't return to Bolton until May 2019, and so it's also likely that 397s may have started being introduced by then, so we might not see a timetabled 185 on a TPE service via Bolton again .Obviously engineering works may route them that way .

 

[jonesy3001]

Is there anymore testing planned or is that it til the extension lead is done over the christmas period?

 

[furnessvale]

That surprises me. I would have thought it was quite a bit more than that

A sobering reminder of just how unimportant railways are in the big scheme of things.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

A sobering reminder of just how unimportant railways are in the big scheme of things.

Yes, but recently the UK has pretty much run out of generation capacity and only got through buy heavy buyins from France - another 1% or two of the UK total added is not going to help in the teeth of the mass-closures of coal stations, and the glacial progress with building new sources (e.g. nuclear). Or shall we just run electric trains on sunny, breezy days?

 

[STANDISH]

For the record one TPE service on a Sunday morning earlier this year did go through Bank Quay. The route was Man Picc. to Crewe reverse and then north to Preston. My colleague was on the train do undertake this unusual journey. Not sure whether there was on one journey south using the same route.

 

[Greybeard33]

185s are on borrowed time anyway, used only by Northern .They should have finished in May last year but were extended, now expected to finish May 2019 . Don't forget Sprinters will still be going to Clitheroe so they'll be doing 75mph between Salford and Bolton too .

I seem to recall suggestions that 158s will be used to speed up the Blackburn and Clitheroe via Bolton services?

But the Stalybridge - Wigan NW service has to stop at Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate. Even when the 769s take over, that will be the slowest service on the Bolton line.

In Bold. When did that happen?

TPE has run non-stop through Wigan NW since the May timetable change. Currently the Northern Manchester Airport - Blackpool N EMU service stops there instead. From May 2019, the Airport - Barrow/Windermere DMU service will probably take over the Wigan NW calls.

I omitted to mention the only regular 185 operation via Bolton is for Northern .As you kindly highlighted, the 185s that occasionally work the TPE Scottish services run via Eccles and Wigan . It is widely accepted that TPE won't return to Bolton until May 2019, and so it's also likely that 397s may have started being introduced by then, so we might not see a timetabled 185 on a TPE service via Bolton again .Obviously engineering works may route them that way .

The October Rail North Committee papers said that TPE would not serve Bolton even after May 2019, implying that they will continue to use the Golborne route. But I guess that might still change.

 

[Norb]

The October Rail North Committee papers said that TPE would not serve Bolton even after May 2019, implying that they will continue to use the Golborne route. But I guess that might still change.

Considering that there are no stops between Manchester Piccadilly and Preston on those TPE services, I would have thought that routing is up in the air as the route via Bolton is shorter

 

[Greybeard33]

Considering that there are no stops between Manchester Piccadilly and Preston on those TPE services, I would have thought that routing is up in the air as the route via Bolton is shorter

Yes, but the TPE franchise agreement requires (most of) the Scottish services to stop at Bolton, if only to pick up northbound and set down southbound. It seems that this requirement is not being implemented in May 2019.

 

[InOban]

Maybe the statement that they wouldn't serve Bolton refers to not carrying passengers between Manchester and Bolton?

 

[42626]

Yes, but the TPE franchise agreement requires (most of) the Scottish services to stop at Bolton, if only to pick up northbound and set down southbound. It seems that this requirement is not being implemented in May 2019.

Didn't the TPE service also serve Chorley?

 

[jonesy3001]

Didn't the TPE service also serve Chorley?

When i caught the train to piccadilly from lancaster, was always preston-chorley-bolton-oxford rd-piccadilly-airport, before they electrified the chat moss and TPE introduced the 350's.

 

[Ianno87]

Didn't the TPE service also serve Chorley?

Yes. Though not sure whether that means the stop will be re-instated (it was only really there in the first place as Scotland services took the paths of Barrow/Windermere services, which stopped at Chorley, so it had to be maintained for that reason).

 

[Greybeard33]

Yes. Though not sure whether that means the stop will be re-instated (it was only really there in the first place as Scotland services took the paths of Barrow/Windermere services, which stopped at Chorley, so it had to be maintained for that reason).

The TPE franchise agreement TSR, from December 2017, was Manchester - Bolton - Preston (no requirement to stop at Chorley), with Bolton replacing the previous Wigan North Western stop. Due to the electrification delay, the change was initially postponed to May 2018, then the further delay caused the current, bodged, timetable, with no stops between Piccadilly and Preston. In May 2019 Northern is planning to introduce the post-electrification timetable on the Bolton line, as originally developed for May 2018. But it seems TPE will maintain the current timetable for the Scottish services, at least until December 2019.

I believe this is all still subject to final Network Rail approval at this stage in the development of the May timetable.

 

[themiller]

The TPE franchise agreement TSR, from December 2017, was Manchester - Bolton - Preston (no requirement to stop at Chorley), with Bolton replacing the previous Wigan North Western stop. Due to the electrification delay, the change was initially postponed to May 2018, then the further delay caused the current, bodged, timetable, with no stops between Piccadilly and Preston. In May 2019 Northern is planning to introduce the post-electrification timetable on the Bolton line, as originally developed for May 2018. But it seems TPE will maintain the current timetable for the Scottish services, at least until December 2019.

I believe this is all still subject to final Network Rail approval at this stage in the development of the May timetable.

I thought that Wigan was removed from the stops to help prevent overcrowding on the TPE services as they were handy for local journeys.