Bombardier EDMU

[YorkshireBear]

http://rail-news.com/2010/10/06/bombardiers-electrification-plan-presented-to-ministers/

Looks interesting, how many people think it will happen?

 

[route:oxford]

Depends on what the plan is!

There are a total of 105 22X series sets:

Class 220 - 34 Sets
Class 221 - 44 Sets
Class 222 - 27 Sets

I can't quite work out how 123 pantograph coaches are used to upgrade 21 sets.

The closest that I can work out is for Class 221s (which predominantly run under the wires on the Brum-Scotland) to have two pantograph coaches for redundancy and the Class 220 which tend to run as a mix to have just the one. But then that adds up to 122 coaches with one spare...

Alternatively, upgrade 21 Class 221 with a single Pantograph coach as an initial trial, then upgrade all 34 Class 220 with 1 Pantograph and 2 trailers... But not sure if the 220 would be up to it away from the wires.

 

[me123]

I like the idea. I think it's a good use of £300 million pounds. The Voyagers already spend alarming amounts of time under the wires (most notably on the Birmingham-Scotland runs, but they also spend quite a bit of time on the ECML), and it would look really good for the government's green credentials, and probably save quite a bit of money, if they were to add the pantographs.

Furthermore, I think this could actually spur the government on to infill electrification when times are better. Once you've got CrossCountry trains with pantographs, suddenly it becomes feasible to electrify (say) York-Birmingham, as there will be trains ready and able to make use of the OHLE immediately (with the diesel stock being replaced by EMUs as required). I know some people disagree with me here and think that the opposite will happen (that there will be less of an incentive because the trains are able to run with diesel, and that electrification becomes less of a priority), but I don't realistically think that the cross country routes are all going to be electrified any time soon, and that it is sensible to have these EDMUs for now.

So, I hope that the government see the sense in this and go ahead with it. Sadly, I don't think they will. In a time of cuts, transport always suffers. And I don't think they're going to hand over that much for this. But we can always hope.

 

[asylumxl]

I agree entirely, and hope it goes ahead.

 

[rail-britain]

This has been on the cards for a while
The idea is to take all the sets up to 7 cars, hence the 144 vehicles
For electrification all the sets would require to have two vehicles fitted with pantographs (which seems unusual when all other EMUs only have one)

This is deemed as a short-term improvement to take into account rising passenger numbers
Personally, I can see the order being about one third of that

 

[jopsuk]

I guess with this were electrification to then spread further (say the whole MML wired up), such that the 222 fleet (for example) were running 100% under wires that the diesel engines, tanks etc could be dropped out?

 

[ainsworth74]

(which seems unusual when all other EMUs only have one)

390s and 395s? (Though granted two does seem to be the exception rather than the rule )

Sounds like a good plan (not just because of the bi-mode but also the extra capacity!), just hope that a) it can be delivered on cost and b) it gets funding at all!

 

[chris89]

Got to say is a good plan. Certianly hope it gets the green light as the Extra carriages will be handy and be more greener.

Chris

 

[route:oxford]

Although, with £300M to spend...

Wouldn't that cover 35 8 car Chinese tilting sets?

 

[tbtc]

I like the idea. I think it's a good use of £300 million pounds. The Voyagers already spend alarming amounts of time under the wires (most notably on the Birmingham-Scotland runs, but they also spend quite a bit of time on the ECML), and it would look really good for the government's green credentials, and probably save quite a bit of money, if they were to add the pantographs.

Furthermore, I think this could actually spur the government on to infill electrification when times are better. Once you've got CrossCountry trains with pantographs, suddenly it becomes feasible to electrify (say) York-Birmingham, as there will be trains ready and able to make use of the OHLE immediately (with the diesel stock being replaced by EMUs as required). I know some people disagree with me here and think that the opposite will happen (that there will be less of an incentive because the trains are able to run with diesel, and that electrification becomes less of a priority), but I don't realistically think that the cross country routes are all going to be electrified any time soon, and that it is sensible to have these EDMUs for now.

So, I hope that the government see the sense in this and go ahead with it. Sadly, I don't think they will. In a time of cuts, transport always suffers. And I don't think they're going to hand over that much for this. But we can always hope.

I agree with every word
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although, with £300M to spend...

Wouldn't that cover 35 8 car Chinese tilting sets?

Possibly, but we need longer trains rather than "more" trains, IMHO

 

[ainsworth74]

Possibly, but we need longer trains rather than "more" trains, IMHO

Fully agree, in most areas currently the frequency of the service is not the issue (ok I'm sure there are some areas where it is but on the whole!) but the carrying capacity of trains is the problem. XC frequency are for the most part fine, but they have nowhere near enough capacity on their 4 car Voyagers.

Actually wasn't this shorter trains more frequently rather than longer trains further apart a BR policy originally hence all the 2 car Pacers and Sprinters? I suppose now we need longer trains and more frequently!

 

[tbtc]

Fully agree, in most areas currently the frequency of the service is not the issue (ok I'm sure there are some areas where it is but on the whole!) but the carrying capacity of trains is the problem. XC frequency are for the most part fine, but they have nowhere near enough capacity on their 4 car Voyagers.

Actually wasn't this shorter trains more frequently rather than longer trains further apart a BR policy originally hence all the 2 car Pacers and Sprinters? I suppose now we need longer trains and more frequently!

I'm struggling to think of many routes where there are clearly too few trains.

On a lot of routes we have a good enough frequency (Manchester to Leeds every fifteen minutes, Newcastle to Birmingham every half hour, most big cities have a half hourly service to London) the issue is that the trains are too short (3 car 158s, 4 car Voyagers). If these were seven coaches then we would avoid a lot of problems, and there'd be spare seats for XC to flog some cheap tickets too...

 

[Crossforth]

This idea may not need the full £300m funding from the government as (assuming they win the next west coast franchise) Virgin said they would fund the addition of pantograph cars to their Voyagers

 

[tbtc]

Another thought; if this happens (IF) then seven car voyagers probably mean we don't need any doubled Voyagers (a fourteen car one won't fit in many platforms anyway - despite the shorter coaches)... so that would free up a couple of Voyagers for additional services, or to mean XC no longer need the HSTs (on second thoughts it wouldn't spare sufficient Voyagers to replace all XC HSTs)

 

[ukrob]

This has been on the cards for a while
The idea is to take all the sets up to 7 cars, hence the 144 vehicles
For electrification all the sets would require to have two vehicles fitted with pantographs (which seems unusual when all other EMUs only have one)

This is deemed as a short-term improvement to take into account rising passenger numbers
Personally, I can see the order being about one third of that

Any sources for the two bits in bold? I suspect they won't be forthcoming somehow. It wasn't long ago you told use that Pendolinos will need three pantographs when lengthened to 11 cars :roll:

 

[Geezertronic]

I wonder whether this would require any infrastructure work to lengthen platforms to accomodate the longer trains? My assumption is not many as the vast majority of stations should be able to take 8 carriages (even if the extended 22x's will be shorter than this).

Also I presume extra stabling/maintenance facilities would be required to accomodate the longer trains?

 

[sprinterguy]

Crivens! So Bombardier have actually drawn up a plan that reaches a logical conclusion to both the issues surrounding extending the Voyagers, and extensive running of diesel engines on electrified routes. Well, that's a pleasant change to the usual way of thinking concerning the UKs railways hock:

I'm really pleased to hear this news, though I'm much less than certain that Bombardier will be able to secure funding for the project, more's the pity.

It seems that in the UK, once EMUs get above a certain number of carriages, two pantograph cars are required, even though only one pantograph is raised at any one time. There must be some reasoning for that, I wonder what it is. Concerning depot requirements, I wonder if Central Rivers depot is set up to deal with longer Voyagers, or whether modifications will be required to things like lifting jacks or fuel points, and fuel points at other stabling points, such as Tyne Yard, etc. Where the stabling points are existing HST depots, then there shouldn't need to be any modifications, and the same with stations on Crosscountry routes, as prior to the Voyagers being introduced XC operated seven carriage trains anyway.

 

[route:oxford]

Concerning depot requirements, I wonder if Central Rivers depot is set up to deal with longer Voyagers, or whether modifications will be required to things like lifting jacks or fuel points, and fuel points at other stabling points, such as Tyne Yard, etc. Where the stabling points are existing HST depots, then there shouldn't need to be any modifications, and the same with stations on Crosscountry routes, as prior to the Voyagers being introduced XC operated seven carriage trains anyway.

It can't be impossible. There were 9 car 222s operating on the Midland Mainline for a while.

 

[charlesn132]

It would be nice for them to make the 22x's electric and diesel, I wonder what class they would be then? Will they be renumbered into 3xx's?

 

[MCR247]

No, 3xx is for EMUs

 

[Jordeh]

I'm very confused by this, will only 21 units become EDMUs and the rest remain purely Diesel? And all units are increased to become 7 car?

 

[Bastiaan]

No, in the proposal all 22x sets would become EDMUs by constructing 123 new pantrograph cars and converting 21 existing cars into pantograph cars.

 

[MCR247]

When people say all 22x trains, the meridians won't be done will they? If so why?

 

[Crossforth]

When people say all 22x trains, the meridians won't be done will they? If so why?

In preparation for the electrification of the MML (if it happens)
And the Saturday service which runs to York (Scarborough in the summer); it can run with a panto up between Donny and York

 

[MCR247]

hock:hock:hock:hock:

Does....this...mean....the government might use.....foresight?!?!

 

[Crossforth]

haha, are you having a laugh?

Bombardier are using foresight

 

[ukrob]

In preparation for the electrification of the MML (if it happens)
And the Saturday service which runs to York (Scarborough in the summer); it can run with a panto up between Donny and York

How many miles is under the wires at the southern end of the MML?

Are the MML platforms at St Pancras wired?

 

[Crossforth]

How many miles is under the wires at the southern end of the MML?

Are the MML platforms at St Pancras wired?

They are but I don't know if EMT stop at any stations with wires north of STP

 

[MCR247]

2tph out of 5tph EMT trains call at Bedford, which is where the wires end. Although I'm not sure if the fast line platform heading North is electrified

 

[Crossforth]

2tph out of 5tph EMT trains call at Bedford, which is where the wires end. Although I'm not sure if the fast line platform heading North is electrified

Better than none I spose