The irony of liberals suddenly trying to do it again is astounding. Relatively speaking we do have influence as a country, its just we are not a major power. Its not binary between superpower and nothing, especially with a declining US that needs as many allies as it can get to contain China. Many of the people who like to knock Britain would be really annoyed if we withdrew from NATO on the grounds that we are a long way from Russia... Or if UK government doesn't support their latest pet issue.
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Boris to resign? (Speculation) And who should replace him?
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The irony of liberals suddenly trying to do it again is astounding. Relatively speaking we do have influence as a country, its just we are not a major power. Its not binary between superpower and nothing, especially with a declining US that needs as many allies as it can get to contain China. Many of the people who like to knock Britain would be really annoyed if we withdrew from NATO on the grounds that we are a long way from Russia... Or if UK government doesn't support their latest pet issue.
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nlogax
Established Member
It's not just the US who is declining here. Citing a recent speech from ex-PM John Major,
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54879209
I couldn't care less about the 'special relationship', a dire and toadying concept and phrase which is only special to certain folks on this side of the Atlantic. However we did have a special advantageous role to play as that intersection between the US and the EU which for myriad pathetic reasons we chose to junk. Our NATO membership is one of the few things we have left - that and our islands' geography which even Boris Johnson can't break.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Harking back to the title of this thread (one that I appear to have inadvertantly overlooked), without having to trawl through all the past threads, has there been any official statement made on the matter?
birchesgreen
Established Member
Sorry i don't get that line, liberals do what again?
Official, no. But it was leaked by "people in the know" that Boris plans to leave office in February.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Now that is in the public domain, should not this now be officially confirmed? Or is it just a "trumpism"?
Go from disparaging the importance of Anglo-American relations to seeing a close relationship as essential. Its pure opportunism. If its OK for British politicians to regularly attack Trump then its OK for the Tories to have a difficult but cordial relationship with Biden. If a trade deal with the US was not worth the conditions they were offering then the bipartisan nature of the US trade position means thats as true now as one week ago. The people who are crowing that Johnson won't be Biden's first call are predominantly people who have been calling the UK a US lapdog since 2003 or earlier.
The UK reaction to Biden's election is mostly about Brexit. The people who never learnt to accept their defeat have been given hope. It does nudge the Tories towards a deal but that would cement brexit not reverse it.
In economic terms, a trade deal with the US is close to irrelevance. In political terms it's nearly impossible to reach agreement that doesn't horrify British producers. The truth is that this is understood in government and they've been trying to dance around it. I wish we could all just accept that there isn't going to be one, and that that's OK. Donald Trump wasn't really that bothered about doing one. Joe Biden isn't really that opposed. It just doesn't really matter that much.
Sad Sprinter
Established Member
I've always been sceptical about this idea we are a bridge between Europe and America. Given the choice, Britain has always, nearly every government, decided to get completely in bed with the Americans leaving the Europeans out to dry. For better or worse...
Britain has been obsessing about its decline since the 1890s, and in earnest after 1945. Decline isn't absoloute-its illusionary, Thatcher was seen to have reversed Britain's decline and placed the UK firmly back on the international stage. Curiously, Blair, only seven years after Thatcher, was lauded with the same achievement-as was Brown in some ways in his short premiership. What has affected British decline I believe, is the Cameron government's lackadaisical view to defence matters/spending and the lingering reluctance to pursue a more assertive foreign policy after Iraq which affects the Americans too.
Perhaps its because I'm a filthy eurosceptic, but I seriously doubt leaving the EU, in real terms, affects our global standing. Sure, the unfortunate portrayal as Brexit being "right-wing populism" (it isn't) will be viewed negatively by liberal, global personalities and institutions, but lets face it, the EU is hardly a juggernaut in itself. It has no real foreign policy, its millitary might is constrained by existing domestic politics and economics and its main goal in the past 10 years seems to be to avert its own impending doom.
To be honest, I couldn't care less what Major thinks, he was one of the biggest causes for Brexit; if it wasn't for him twisting Thatcher's arm into joining the ERM (against her better judgement), Black Wednesday would not have happened which was a critical source for Britain's sustained euroscepticism and he destroyed his own Party by trying to force through the Maastricht Treaty when it should have gone to a referendum considering most other European countries had one.
We have more than our NATO membership; we have the latent talent in the armed forces, an economy large enough (in theory) to support a strong defence policy, world ties and a stable, reliable democratic system. Sure, we went through a rough patch in the past five years, but if Thatcher and Blair can be credited with turning this country around, I'm sure the future leadership is there that can restore our fortunes once again.
This, exactly.
In 2017 exports to the USA were worth £112B and imports were worth £70B. In the same year our trade with the EU was double that - exports around £270B and imports of £330B. Even a complete free trade deal with the USA couldn't hope to replace the potential trade we could lose with the EU. Americans aren't going to buy more Wensleydale because it's 5% cheaper.
nlogax
Established Member
Only partially about Brexit. People are sick and tired of it but a deal with the EU would be the best outcome for the ridiculous situation the UK now finds itself in and a Biden presidency will sway Boris Johnson to make it happen. An EU deal is way, way more important than a US deal.
Positive reactions here to a Biden win are mostly due to Britons absolutely loathing Donald Trump.
That's quite the faith you have in our future. If we don't get things right and start the groundwork now then I believe it's misplaced. Where's this future leadership coming from?
Sad Sprinter
Established Member
Therein lies the problem, but people have the capacity to surprise.
Why does it even matter how big and important the UK is on the world stage? What counts is the quality of life enjoyed by its citizens. I get the impression that vast swathes of the country are quite happy to be in poverty as long as their country has "sovereignty", whatever that means. Living in a big economy, mostly because you live in a country with a lot of people in it, is irrelevant if you are poor. Per capita, Norway, Luxembourg and Switzerland are far richer. Luxembourg won't ever have an army to rival that of the UK. But why does that matter if a typical person in Luxembourg is well off and has a good life?
The two are often related - though admittedly not always. The idea is that more influential countries are able to shape world events in their favour, where less influential countries have to find a niche that allows their economies to flourish. Countries like Switzerland and Luxembourg have done this successfully, countries like Greece and Portugal less so.
The Brexiteers continue to shout "sovereignty!" loudly as if it was some magical incantation that was going to cause gold to rain from the heavens and everything would be wonderful, when all they actually have is an empty and meaningless word.
In addition, the government's plan to deliberately break international law is a disgrace and will tarnish this country's reputation world-wide causing other nations to realise that any agreements they might make with the UK could be torn up at any time.
birchesgreen
Established Member
When have the Lib Dems done that? Though to be honest one seldom hears much from them these days.
birchesgreen
Established Member
So with the Lord's racism towards Harris yesterday and the Photoshop-gaffe with the congratulation from Johnson today things arn't really off to a good start with the new administration are they?
nlogax
Established Member
Felt less like Photoshop and more like MS Paint on Windows 95.
birchesgreen
Established Member
I do feel obliged to point out that Lord Kilclooney is not and never has been a Conservative!
Biden and Boris' call and some more positive stuff put out by Biden's allies yesterday does indicate he is taking a delicate approach to brexit. As much as many in the UK and the EU would like him to weigh in against it, that simply isn't in his or American interests. He seems to be focusing his influence on the single issue of the internal markets bill. Biden won't start punishing governments for working with the Trump administration. If that attitude were normalised it would make governments wary of working with a US government for fear of a backlash the next time the other party wins.
My money is on Boris getting a reasonable trade deal (i.e. more or less on terms EU are offering) and being forced out by his own party next year over handling of the pandemic (or him jumping before he is pushed).
wireforever
Member
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Hopefully it won't be Jake Berry after his comments about people up north preferring football to ballet and the arts he namechecks several northern football clubs bet he has never visited the areas in question.If memory serves didn't he used to be the northern powerhouse minister another ex minister windbag
He referenced Blackburn Rovers, Accrington Stanley, Barrow, Carlisle and Sunderland. I think its reasonable to assume the MP for Rossendale and Darwin has visited Blackburn and Accrington.... Barrow, Carlisle and Sunderland are on odd choice if he hasn't been.
Perhaps he phrased it badly but football is an important part of northern culture! According to Wikipedia he studied in Liverpool and Sheffield which take their football clubs seriously! I certainly wasn't offended by it.
What is going on in No 10? Boris had offered Lee Cain, his director of communications, the role of No 10 chief of staff. However that offer prompted deep concerns among MPs, some ministers, other members of the PM's staff and even his fiancee, Carrie Symonds. Apparently the tensions were too much and Cain has decided to resign. Cain and Cummings are long time colleagues and both heavily involved in Vote Leave. There was speculation that Cummings might go also, but it now appears that he is staying (shame). Just at a time when the government needs to be fully focussed on the pandemic and brexit, they are instead engaging in an internal power struggle. So who is actually running the country?
birchesgreen
Established Member
I find it amusing and quite sad. One thing i haven't seen discussed anywhere is why exactly does Symonds not like Cain?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Such political comings and goings have been a political fact of life for centuries.
Darwen, not Darwin. That would be a seriously big constituency otherwise!
I wasn’t offended by what he said, but it’s lazy stereotyping. Per capita there could be as many people in the north interested in ballet as there are in the south (I’ve no idea) but most access to world class ballet is concentrated in the south.
What did make me laugh on a related topic was that buffoon Oliver Dowden said when they were talking about reopening the live music sector after the first lockdown. Ever the man of the people, finger on the pulse, down with the kids etc etc, he urged the public to attend these “recitals”.
Certainly not the Prime Minister. Surely he took out soundings before this latest reshuffle of posts. If he takes his partner's views so seriously, did he not sound her out before considering Cain's promotion? Did he not make it clear to Allegra Stratton that Lee Cain would be her boss? He is starting to make Theresa May look efficient - at least Fiona Hill and Nick Timothy were removed relatively quickly and someone brought in at some pace. Sir Graham Brady needs to pay a visit - shape up or ship out.
At least Kier Starmer will be whistling a happy tune!
It appears nobody. They're all engaged in a heated discussion as to if that is or is not an iceberg dead ahead.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Whether you agree with them politically or not, I'd say it's pretty clear that any of his predecessors were more competent than the Bozo, back to the 1970s at least.
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