BR Managers

[HighlandSpot]

Hello all,

I'm curious if any of you (particularly ex-BR men) remember or have any resources regarding how managers were promoted in the old BR system. Information like how managers started their careers, how education levels (e.g. university) affected entry/promotion, average age at different managerial levels, etc. Any stories or quips would be most appreciated!

Does anyone recall the exact hierarchy? A chart indicating the 'ranks,' or something of that ilk?

 

[Paul Kelly]

The book "Inside British Rail" by Stephen Poole has some really good anecdotes and quips. I found it particularly interesting how managers seemed to be unquestioningly expected to have full knowledge of all the duties performed by their subordinates, to the extent that they could always step in and do the job if needed.

 

[Magdalia]

The British Railways Board, and before it the British Transport Commission, were public sector bureaucracies, and organisationally borrowed heavily from the armed forces and the civil service.

Recruitment was two separate tracks. Most staff joined straight from school and worked their way up the hierarchy. But there was a graduate recruitment programme to recruit the top management of the future, similar to Sandhurst for future army generals and the "fast stream" for future permanent secretaries.

The British Railways graduate recruitment programme was very competitive, and being a rail enthusiast was frowned upon, unless you were a member of the railway club at Cambridge or Oxford.

I suspect that there was a strict hierarchy, with parallels to the armed forces and civil service hierarchies. I know that army officers would only deal with Ministry of Defence civil servants of equivalent rank and the same thing probably happened between the British Railways Board and the Department of Transport. Status was very important in those days.

It is a subject worthy of some proper research. If I was doing that research then I'd be starting with the British Railways history books written by Gourvish and Bonavia.

 

[edwin_m]

I started as a graduate trainee and was in management grades from 1989 to privatisation. There was a strict grading system (Management Staff then Executive Grade). Someone doctored the first aid poster that describes the five levels of consciousness to read something like "MS1 responds normally to conversation" through to "MS5 will not respond to any stimulus". Travel facilities were by grade, if I recall you got a certain number of boxes then at MS3 you had a regional status pass (standard class I think) and at MS4 a first class network status pass. There was also some petty status symbol stuff - I think you had to be management grade to get a desk diary. Each grade had broad overlapping pay scales and staff were expected to progress up the scale as they gained experience.

All management grade jobs throughout BR were advertised on a weekly vacancy list that everybody had access to, with grade, location and brief job description. This ran to 20 pages or so. There were also arrangements for the frequent re-organisations, where somebody could be put into a lower grade job if there was no suitable role in their own grade, but continue to be paid at the higher grade.

I remember that when you wrote a memo it had to be addressed to the relevant Director, for the attention of the person who you actually wanted to read it, and signed by you per pro your own Director. I think that applied even if the sender and recipient reported (via umpteen layers in between) to the same Director.

 

[Bald Rick]

I remember that when you wrote a memo it had to be addressed to the relevant Director, for the attention of the person who you actually wanted to read it, and signed by you per pro your own Director. I think that applied even if the sender and recipient reported (via umpteen layers in between) to the same Director.

A variation of a term I picked up in my first year: “Management by CO3”.

(Where an issue identified at the clerical level was elevated up throught he chain of management, until two directors decided “something must be done”, at which point it was delegates down another chain to clerical level, when it could have been sorted by the two clerical people themselves had they been allowed to.

 

[Western 52]

It seemed that BR did not want management that were in any way enthusiastic about railways. About 40 years ago I had graduated in transport management, and applied for the graduate programme with BR. Along with some other transport graduates we got some way through the process until they discovered we were all rail enthusiasts. That was it, and I ended up as a trainee manager in road haulage!

 

[Rescars]

I started as a graduate trainee and was in management grades from 1989 to privatisation. There was a strict grading system (Management Staff then Executive Grade). Someone doctored the first aid poster that describes the five levels of consciousness to read something like "MS1 responds normally to conversation" through to "MS5 will not respond to any stimulus". Travel facilities were by grade, if I recall you got a certain number of boxes then at MS3 you had a regional status pass (standard class I think) and at MS4 a first class network status pass. There was also some petty status symbol stuff - I think you had to be management grade to get a desk diary. Each grade had broad overlapping pay scales and staff were expected to progress up the scale as they gained experience.

All management grade jobs throughout BR were advertised on a weekly vacancy list that everybody had access to, with grade, location and brief job description. This ran to 20 pages or so. There were also arrangements for the frequent re-organisations, where somebody could be put into a lower grade job if there was no suitable role in their own grade, but continue to be paid at the higher grade.

I remember that when you wrote a memo it had to be addressed to the relevant Director, for the attention of the person who you actually wanted to read it, and signed by you per pro your own Director. I think that applied even if the sender and recipient reported (via umpteen layers in between) to the same Director.

Much as I recall things back in the day. I had forgotten the diary entitlement. You could also work and be paid at a higher grade without being confirmed in the grade. But an acting MS3 didn't get the travel priviliges of a substantive MS3 for example. This was significant as the MS3 regional "leather" pass was for travel on or off duty. At MS4 you got an all system pass. If you had been around long enough this would also include former parts of the railway empire as well, such as the exLMS Caledonian MacBrayne ferries. All lower MS grades were entitled to first class duty passes if their role involved travel and also to first class privilege tickets. The correspondence "Following the conversations between our representatives....." was something else, but then a number of senior staff apparently had no first names and referred to each other by surname only. As has been noted before, the past is indeed a foreign country.....

Above the management grades were the Senior Officers. They were so grand and remote that I know nothing of their terms and conditions (apart from their being entitled to be members of the British Transport Officers Guild)

 

[ungreat]

When I started as a secondman there were hardly any traction inspectors that hadnt driven or fired steam or fought in WW2!

 

[Magdalia]

Much as I recall things back in the day. I had forgotten the diary entitlement.

What about office furniture? In the civil service chairs with armrests, desks with two pedestals and carpet were strictly according to status.

 

[Andy R. A.]

Unfortunately being a Rail Enthusiast was interpreted as being contrary to what was required of a Manager in the last 30 years or so of BR. Most of the time the tasks required were increasingly of 'Cuts and Closures', which an 'Enthusiast' would find to be at odds with their conscience.
While there were a number of decent managerial types (I worked for a few), there were also a number of those who were 'parachuted' into jobs who were to put it mildly 'a bit two faced'. They would be relatively as nice as pie face to face, but beware of turning your back less you got stabbed in the back.
I remember one particular example, on his first day he summoned the Senior Staff to his Office. He plonked his feet up on the desk, leaning back in the chair, hands behind his head. "I've been sent to sort this Area out !" He certainly did, co-operation virtually ceased, performance plummeted, and this person commanded as much respect as a cockroach, and far less personable. The new broom ended up being 'swept out' within months.

 

[Goldfish62]

I've just finished reading "Bob Reid's Railway Revolution" which apart from discussing sectorisation provides an excellent commentary the management of BR from its inception. The book concurs with many comments on this thread.

 

[6Gman]

I started as a graduate trainee and was in management grades from 1989 to privatisation. There was a strict grading system (Management Staff then Executive Grade). Someone doctored the first aid poster that describes the five levels of consciousness to read something like "MS1 responds normally to conversation" through to "MS5 will not respond to any stimulus".

I'm glad somebody else remembers that!

Unfortunately being a Rail Enthusiast was interpreted as being contrary to what was required of a Manager in the last 30 years or so of BR. Most of the time the tasks required were increasingly of 'Cuts and Closures', which an 'Enthusiast' would find to be at odds with their conscience.
While there were a number of decent managerial types (I worked for a few), there were also a number of those who were 'parachuted' into jobs who were to put it mildly 'a bit two faced'. They would be relatively as nice as pie face to face, but beware of turning your back less you got stabbed in the back.
I remember one particular example, on his first day he summoned the Senior Staff to his Office. He plonked his feet up on the desk, leaning back in the chair, hands behind his head. "I've been sent to sort this Area out !" He certainly did, co-operation virtually ceased, performance plummeted, and this person commanded as much respect as a cockroach, and far less personable. The new broom ended up being 'swept out' within months.

There could be a lot of nastiness.

One example I recall. I was trying to sort out a complex charter requirement one Friday - I can't remember the details but it needed a "higher up" authorisation than I was able to give. Explained it to my boss and he gave me a "Leave it with me, I'll get it sorted". So I handed over the file.

Came in on Monday morning to a "go in and see the big boss; you're in trouble".

Went in and found him with my boss and said file.

"Why wasn't this sorted on Friday?"
"I handed it over to xxx (my boss) on Friday; he said he'd sort it."
"I said no such thing - and it was on your desk this morning."

*******.

I assume he'd put it to one side, forgotten all about it, and then decided the **** was going to fall on someone else.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There will be a rich , unwritten seam from ex BR members here.

Grades were 1 -5 for Clerical Officers , A to D for Supervisors and MS1 -5 for managers. Senior Officers went from EG (or SO) 1 to "unclassified" - but there were not many of those. Technical departments were different.

A "Traffic Management Trainee" in 1979 got £3700 per annum plus travel and LT (as it was then) priv rate. We got an all stations BR standard class for the training period , to encourage us to go out and about as much as possible - some were stamped "available also in brake vans and rear cabs" The wage then was reasonable , but the job was much coveted. About 30 that year , and I regret to say the dropout rate was quite high - some not making it beyond 12 months. There were staff entrants , and another course based on "Traffic Students" -which was part College time and part BR training.

When you qualified , you were promised a supervisors role - usually a C or if lucky a D - these jobs entailed anti-social hours , weekends of course - direct on calls and a launch into the real world of bad weather and direct staff relationships. Quite hard after the university period and "cushy" training when you swanned around , learned a lot (sometimes not) , and had no direct responsibility.

Everyone wanted an MS1 for the 1st class travel , (an MS2 gave you a Regional Pass which you could change on geographical location) , BUT - you made lots of money in supervisor jobs with overtime etc , and management was pretty much "flat time" - plus you did unpaid overtime - every job description has "and any other duties as requested" - as a "C" I did 5x12 Mon-Friday , often a 0700 - finish on Saturdays , and too many Sundays. Ergo - lots of money and no social life.

(when I moved to London as an MS , I doubled my mortgage for a similar property , but for 6 months I did some "extra" work outside the railway to get over the loss of earnings.

As time went on , the railway cut back on "starter" jobs - so junior Assistant / Station Managers were culled and so on in the "on the way out" regions Even "smalled" areas went (Marylebone being only an MS1 pre modernisation)

Could really write more - but this is a flavour.

 

[edwin_m]

What about office furniture? In the civil service chairs with armrests, desks with two pedestals and carpet were strictly according to status.

I'm pretty sure there was something about desks but I don't recall any details. I do recall the chairs we had at the RTC were seemingly designed to cripple the back of anyone who had to use a computer (nearly everyone by my time) but as far as I remember everyone suffered with the same type.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I'm pretty sure there was something about desks but I don't recall any details. I do recall the chairs we had at the RTC were seemingly designed to cripple the back of anyone who had to use a computer (nearly everyone by my time) but as far as I remember everyone suffered with the same type.

There was a "standard" BR office desk , but there were no sort of civil service demarkations on status etc as I recall.

There were some superb bits of office furniture around from pre-grouping , GER chairs at Ipswich , LNWR ditto in the Traffic Managers Office at Penrith and Swansea High St had original GWR carpets in the Area Managers office. I hope they went to good , deserving homes.

Often thought that York Museum ought to have a display on a "typical BR admin office" - masses of paper , glass covering on the desk for important documents underneath , a Telex and printer machine in the corner. Smell of old paper and slight whiff of leaking gas and BR category polish. Coat hook with comfy office Cardigan hanging. (certain clerical officers were known as "cardigans")

 

[Mag_seven]

It seemed that BR did not want management that were in any way enthusiastic about railways.

Yes I was always told to keep quiet any "rail enthusiasm" when going for promotion!

I suspect that there was a strict hierarchy, with parallels to the armed forces and civil service hierarchies.

There was - terms such as "officer" and "leave" (as opposed to "holidays") were rife.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There were a number of enthusiastic managers , (honestly) , but one soon learned that one had to show a professional attitude and interest. I laughingly recall mentioning that one was paid for taking numbers - physically checking TOPS lists etc , but at various antisocial times on the clock. (and in all weathers)

"Railway Officers" - and "messes" - lasted well into the 80's , really for the higher grades and often usually just at Regional HQ and 222 Marylebone Road. (until abolished !) - it was a real sign of the past , and one had to be invited to join. 222 had a Senior , Middle and Junior mess - and a canteen for the others. Certainly a level of snobbery there.

Canteens at major stations such as Paddington were divided into a wages staff one (drivers etc) , and a salaried staff one. Both served pretty identical meals , - but there was a demarcation based on uniform /or lack of.

There still exists a "Retired Railway Officers Society" (founded 1901) , which meets monthly at Waterloo. A lecture society , and one that is open only to those who were Senior Officers ,you have to be nominated by two members and the voted in by the attendees. Far from being elitist I have to say. Yes - I am a member....

 

[Mag_seven]

There still exists a "Retired Railway Officers Society" (founded 1901) , which meets monthly at Waterloo. A lecture society , and one that is open only to those who were Senior Officers ,you have to be nominated by two members and the voted in by the attendees. Far from being elitist I have to say. Yes - I am a member....

I was told by a couple of people I know in it that it is strictly only "EG" grades and above although I suspect there might be the odd high "MS" grade amongst them.

 

[Falcon1200]

Everyone wanted an MS1 for the 1st class travel , (an MS2 gave you a Regional Pass which you could change on geographical location) , BUT - you made lots of money in supervisor jobs with overtime etc , and management was pretty much "flat time" - plus you did unpaid overtime - every job description has "and any other duties as requested" - as a "C" I did 5x12 Mon-Friday , often a 0700 - finish on Saturdays , and too many Sundays. Ergo - lots of money and no social life.

When I started my Control career in 1984 the most senior staff were MS Grades, and were paid overtime (O/T)- The only MS Grades who were, I believe. However their O/T was only paid every 13 weeks, and the first twenty hours was not paid at all. Over several reorganisations more and more Control posts became MS Grades, and I eventually reached MS1; By which time only MS2 and above were entitled to First Class staff travel !

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I was told by a couple of people I know in it that it is strictly only "EG" grades and above although I suspect there might be the odd high "MS" grade amongst them.

There are Associate members - voted in - for example Roger Ford. (of Modern Railways)

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Often thought that York Museum ought to have a display on a "typical BR admin office" - masses of paper , glass covering on the desk for important documents underneath , a Telex and printer machine in the corner. Smell of old paper and slight whiff of leaking gas and BR category polish. Coat hook with comfy office Cardigan hanging. (certain clerical officers were known as "cardigans")

including 'omnibus' pads, why so called I have no idea, and often submitted with the box 'the above return is nil' ticked!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

When I started my Control career in 1984 the most senior staff were MS Grades, and were paid overtime (O/T)- The only MS Grades who were, I believe. However their O/T was only paid every 13 weeks, and the first twenty hours was not paid at all. Over several reorganisations more and more Control posts became MS Grades, and I eventually reached MS1; By which time only MS2 and above were entitled to First Class staff travel !

The trigger for 1st class travel moved up a few times.

At one time - there was a grade known as "Special A" , - before my time as a sort of senior clerical officer , and they got it , ironically some of these grades were transferred across to the National Freight Corporation after 1968 but they still retained this perk or salary enhancement.......

including 'omnibus' pads, why so called I have no idea, and often submitted with the box 'the above return is nil' ticked!

Same as "skins" (no - not Rizla papers) , - but memos with double carbons which would be sent out to staff for comments (often for delays or similar) , allowing the recipient to reply and send the top copy back and retain the bottom for their records. Saved typing on both sides.

Such was the buraucracy of the time , and sometimes to make work for the clerks at the Divisional Office (another part of the empire abolished) , various trivial things would be sent out to the Area Manager on a periodic basis - at one locations , a fishing vessel in trouble landed some fresh fish as a one off at a place somewhere in East Anglia and shipped by rail. Cue an orgy of fresh fish forwarded returns demanded on the poor local Assistant Area Manager who lobbed it in the bin several times , until the DMO took the hint.

 

[RT4038]

Canteens at major stations such as Paddington were divided into a wages staff one (drivers etc) , and a salaried staff one. Both served pretty identical meals , - but there was a demarcation based on uniform /or lack of.

Were the wages staff not known as 'Conciliation Grades' ?

 

[matchmaker]

Very interesting read. I was a civil servant (starting in 1978) and a lot of the above seems familiar! One thing I remember well was that at my grade (EO - Executive Officer) and above you were a mobile grade - ie you went where you were damn well told in the country! This was explained as "the exigencies of the service".

I was with a Scottish Office department, but my biggest move was still from Dumfries to Lerwick! (Fortunately this worked out as I met my now wife in Shetland.) I know from reading Gerry Fiennes "I tried to run a railway" that railway staff had to deal with similar rules.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Very interesting read. I was a civil servant (starting in 1978) and a lot of the above seems familiar! One thing I remember well was that at my grade (EO - Executive Officer) and above you were a mobile grade - ie you went where you were damn well told in the country! This was explained as "the exigencies of the service".

I was with a Scottish Office department, but my biggest move was still from Dumfries to Lerwick! (Fortunately this worked out as I met my now wife in Shetland.) I know from reading Gerry Fiennes "I tried to run a railway" that railway staff had to deal with similar rules.

There was certainly a plan to move people around the country - North Walians would have got a place on the Southern Region , self being South West Wales got a first job in East Anglia , and so on.

One of the great things though was the weekly salaried and management staff vacancy list - so you could , if you fancied apply for a vacancy the other end of the country and in all probability if you were fairy senior in the grade , get an interview which meant a trip out and scale expenses - maybe a sleeper berth.

One of the most bizarre jobs I ever saw advertised was an MS2 in charge of the Harwich dredger - I had visions of a keen young man applying and coveting a gold braid cap that would have gone with the job.

Senior managers had a lot less choice in where they might have ended up , expected to be mobile as many previous generations of staff had been.

 

[Mag_seven]

By which time only MS2 and above were entitled to First Class staff travel !

Which later became MS4. BR were constantly moving the goalposts for travel facilities. After the first class threshold became MS4, MS2 and MS3 were entitled to a "Regional Status Pass" but even that was eventually withdrawn with just free residential travel put in its place.

 

[steamybrian]

I started on BR (Southern Region) in 1966 as a junior clerk in a Divisional Managers Office, learnt ticket office and enquiry office work whilst working my way up through the grades to grade MS2 when I retired from Railtrack in 1996.
I fully agree with the above comments that enthusiasts were frowned upon and I think may have held back some of my opportunities for promotion. You had to know which of your Managers were enthusiasts so that you could share knowledge. In early 1996 had one "old school" Manager who threatened to discipline me for being a working member of a Preservation Society. Needless to say I threatened him back and said if his action was taken he would be reported to the union and action taken against him.!
Another story was early in the 1970s when steam loco workings were banned on the Southern Region but the first steam loco movement was agreed to overnight subject to top secrecy. The timings of the movement was given the same level of secrecy as the Royal Trains.
Plenty more stories of how different like was in BR days compared with today...

 

[HighlandSpot]

The British Railways graduate recruitment programme was very competitive, and being a rail enthusiast was frowned upon, unless you were a member of the railway club at Cambridge or Oxford.

Does anyone recall the numbers of people chosen? And the requirements for those in the graduate recruitment programme? What grade did such recruits enter BR service at?

You all are a wealth of knowledge. I'd like to thank each and every one of you who has been commenting on this post. Truly a privilege to read these responses.

 

[30907]

Does anyone recall the numbers of people chosen? And the requirements for those in the graduate recruitment programme?

The two I knew at Uni both got at least 2/1s - I would assume that was the bar (a "Good Honours Degree").
As for Grade, as Chief Planner has described in #13
Incidentally, the £3.7k salary as a Trainee compares with my (from memory) £2.9k as a CO1 that year though that did include some enhancements.

 

[Albaman]

I have enjoyed reading the various comments and recollections in this section. I was not aware of the publication " Bob Reid's Railway Revolution " but it looks like a very interesting book and it has been added to my " must buy " list.

One of my regrets at the time of privatisation was I wish I had kept an Omnibus pad, BR20145, if I recall.

Regarding the attitude to an invidual who was an enthusiast, I never made my interest known to my colleagues although I am not aware of any particular bias against such individuals. I recall an occasion when my boss wanted me to arrange a meeting, the success of which was dependant on the attendance of a senior manager who I knew was also intersted in railways as a hobby. The day that my boss wanted the meeting to take place was also the day of a steam hauled charter to be hauled by " Green Arrow " and " Evening Star ". It came as no surprise to me when on 'phoning his secretary I learned that Mr X was on leave that day - my boss was not amused.

Finally, one senior manager whose sobriquet reflected his use of very strong language , used to give this advice to aspiring managers :-

" You can be a good b******, or you can be a bad b******, but don't be a silly b******. "