BR Managers

[HighlandSpot]

Often thought that York Museum ought to have a display on a "typical BR admin office" - masses of paper , glass covering on the desk for important documents underneath , a Telex and printer machine in the corner. Smell of old paper and slight whiff of leaking gas and BR category polish. Coat hook with comfy office Cardigan hanging. (certain clerical officers were known as "cardigans")

Do you remember the office wear for "cardigans" (aside from the cardigans )? Also, would this be senior management or all management?

The two I knew at Uni both got at least 2/1s - I would assume that was the bar (a "Good Honours Degree").
As for Grade, as Chief Planner has described in #13
Incidentally, the £3.7k salary as a Trainee compares with my (from memory) £2.9k as a CO1 that year though that did include some enhancements.

Was it straight to MS1 for them? How was the promotion path for uni grads?

 

[30907]

Was it straight to MS1 for them? How was the promotion path for uni grads?

No. Supervisor C/D - I know one was D at Preston, the other was at Workington just 40 years ago (personal reasons for remembering these).

 

[Rescars]

Were the wages staff not known as 'Conciliation Grades' ?

The conciliation and arbitration scheme was created by a number of pre-grouping companies in the 1900s to address industrial relations issues.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

By the early 1980s as Supervisory Grade E had been added to the ladder.

 

[Clarence Yard]

On the M&EE, it was STO (Senior Technical Officer) or MS1 for your first job. Usually, it was 18 months and then off to a new job but, in times of severe reorganisation, it could be a bit longer.

Unlike the Ops and Commercial side, it would never be a supervisors job. A “workshop supervisor” would be a time-served tradesman who had worked his way up. M&EE staff were workshop grade (Railway Shopmen) although, at some depots, conciliation grade staff did the cleaning. At others, they were Cat 1 workshop staff. If you were workshop staff you could get bonus, under various schemes, latterly the BR “re-incentive” bonus scheme where you could earn up to 25% extra. Salaried staff didn’t get bonus and Management staff didn’t get bonus or overtime so the staff, even some Cat 2 ‘mates’, often used to take home far more than an MS1 did.

The young engineers I met in the 1970’s and 1980’s often had wives or girlfriends who were teachers or in the health service - they both had to work hard to get a roof over their head or start a family. And they both knew a career on BR would lead them to moving around the country, sometimes relatively frequently.

 

[HighlandSpot]

What was the typical timeline for someone entering at MS1 to reach MS2 or MS3?

Also, does anyone know the difference for those who entered BR with a Master’s degree v. an undergraduate?

 

[Magdalia]

Was doing a Masters a thing in those days?

After first degree, people who wanted to be academics or researchers did a PhD, nearly everyone else got a job.

 

[HighlandSpot]

Was doing a Masters a thing in those days?

After first degree, people who wanted to be academics or researchers did a PhD, nearly everyone else got a job.

I've a few friends who went into the civil service after their Masters back in the 70s, curious about how it worked for BR

 

[ChiefPlanner]

What was the typical timeline for someone entering at MS1 to reach MS2 or MS3?

Also, does anyone know the difference for those who entered BR with a Master’s degree v. an undergraduate?

Having got to an MS1 - the chances of moving on were almost pure luck and situations - I went from C to MS1 , then to MS3 in one go - then a bit further ...but not spectacularly.

MA and BA/ BSC was of no relevance really.

(God knows why - I did an MA in my own time and at some cost - later on - nearly killed me - but it was a sort of compensation - for doing a proper job , as opposed to listening to some academics who whispered in my ear - "come and be a Historian / Geographer" - frankly had a few doubts when doing crappy duties) d

 

[edwin_m]

Does anyone recall the numbers of people chosen? And the requirements for those in the graduate recruitment programme? What grade did such recruits enter BR service at?

You all are a wealth of knowledge. I'd like to thank each and every one of you who has been commenting on this post. Truly a privilege to read these responses.

I was in the Research graduate programme which was somewhat different from the general one, with most of the time spent on placements with different departments in Derby and only a short period of familiarisation with the railway in general. However we still had the all line pass and the invocation to spend our own time acquainting ourselves with the railway. My offer was conditional on getting a 2:1 and I started as a Research Officer which was unique to that programme I think (the Operational Research people in London may have used it too). Towards the end of a two year programme you were encouraged to apply for Scientific Officer (MS1 with a different title) posts.

 

[Busaholic]

There could be a lot of nastiness.

One example I recall. I was trying to sort out a complex charter requirement one Friday - I can't remember the details but it needed a "higher up" authorisation than I was able to give. Explained it to my boss and he gave me a "Leave it with me, I'll get it sorted". So I handed over the file.

Came in on Monday morning to a "go in and see the big boss; you're in trouble".

Went in and found him with my boss and said file.

"Why wasn't this sorted on Friday?"
"I handed it over to xxx (my boss) on Friday; he said he'd sort it."
"I said no such thing - and it was on your desk this morning."

*******.

I assume he'd put it to one side, forgotten all about it, and then decided the **** was going to fall on someone else.

I got a variation on that at London Transport HQ, 55 Broadway, as a management trainee. Black mark on my record, totally unjustifiably, and from that moment I knew I was going to have to find a new career.

 

[6Gman]

There was a "standard" BR office desk , but there were no sort of civil service demarkations on status etc as I recall.

There were some superb bits of office furniture around from pre-grouping , GER chairs at Ipswich , LNWR ditto in the Traffic Managers Office at Penrith and Swansea High St had original GWR carpets in the Area Managers office. I hope they went to good , deserving homes.

Often thought that York Museum ought to have a display on a "typical BR admin office" - masses of paper , glass covering on the desk for important documents underneath , a Telex and printer machine in the corner. Smell of old paper and slight whiff of leaking gas and BR category polish. Coat hook with comfy office Cardigan hanging. (certain clerical officers were known as "cardigans")

Pretty sure I've still got my LMS clipboard somewhere (and I didn't join the railway until 1977).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A 2/1 was really (I guess) what they were looking for. Of course if you went to Oxon , you got an MA for more or less nothing) - apart from a good degree , they were looking for other skills etc. One was "social skills" - as well as all those covert stuff outside the interviews and tests that they did. Not quite how you held a fork at dinner , but almost....

 

[6Gman]

There were a number of enthusiastic managers , (honestly) , but one soon learned that one had to show a professional attitude and interest. I laughingly recall mentioning that one was paid for taking numbers - physically checking TOPS lists etc , but at various antisocial times on the clock. (and in all weathers)

"Railway Officers" - and "messes" - lasted well into the 80's , really for the higher grades and often usually just at Regional HQ and 222 Marylebone Road. (until abolished !) - it was a real sign of the past , and one had to be invited to join. 222 had a Senior , Middle and Junior mess - and a canteen for the others. Certainly a level of snobbery there.

Canteens at major stations such as Paddington were divided into a wages staff one (drivers etc) , and a salaried staff one. Both served pretty identical meals , - but there was a demarcation based on uniform /or lack of.

There still exists a "Retired Railway Officers Society" (founded 1901) , which meets monthly at Waterloo. A lecture society , and one that is open only to those who were Senior Officers ,you have to be nominated by two members and the voted in by the attendees. Far from being elitist I have to say. Yes - I am a member....

I was slightly surprised to discover - on my first day at work - that the Chief Operating Manager, London Midland Region used the same lavatory as a newly appointed (Temporary) Clerical Officer 1.

There was certainly a plan to move people around the country - North Walians would have got a place on the Southern Region , self being South West Wales got a first job in East Anglia , and so on.

One of the great things though was the weekly salaried and management staff vacancy list - so you could , if you fancied apply for a vacancy the other end of the country and in all probability if you were fairy senior in the grade , get an interview which meant a trip out and scale expenses - maybe a sleeper berth.

I once had a nice (free) day out in London courtesy of applying to be manager of Crewe station buffet - a role for which I had no suitable skills or experience - which was interviewed at the Travellers Fare Office at Victoria! I didn't get the job. I understood there were two unsuitable applicants and it was readvertised.

But I got my day out.

 

[HighlandSpot]

There were a number of enthusiastic managers , (honestly) , but one soon learned that one had to show a professional attitude and interest. I laughingly recall mentioning that one was paid for taking numbers - physically checking TOPS lists etc , but at various antisocial times on the clock. (and in all weathers)

"Railway Officers" - and "messes" - lasted well into the 80's , really for the higher grades and often usually just at Regional HQ and 222 Marylebone Road. (until abolished !) - it was a real sign of the past , and one had to be invited to join. 222 had a Senior , Middle and Junior mess - and a canteen for the others. Certainly a level of snobbery there.

Canteens at major stations such as Paddington were divided into a wages staff one (drivers etc) , and a salaried staff one. Both served pretty identical meals , - but there was a demarcation based on uniform /or lack of.

There still exists a "Retired Railway Officers Society" (founded 1901) , which meets monthly at Waterloo. A lecture society , and one that is open only to those who were Senior Officers ,you have to be nominated by two members and the voted in by the attendees. Far from being elitist I have to say. Yes - I am a member....

Can you tell us more about the officers and messes? Who was entitled to be in the senior, middle, and junior messes - that is to say, what was the difference in rank? What denoted a senior officer vs a middle? Sorry if the questions sound a bit daft, just very curious to hear any stories you may have.

 

[36270k]

I think that 1st class travel for MS1 grade changed sometime in the 1980's
When I went up to MS1 grade in 1989 I got 20 instead of 16 boxes but still 2nd class.

 

[edwin_m]

The combination of travel facilities and a culture where many had to take jobs in different parts of the country led to a lot of long-distance commuting. I suspect the First Class on an early train from Derby to London or vice versa would have had more staff passes than fare payers.

 

[furnessvale]

I once had a nice (free) day out in London courtesy of applying to be manager of Crewe station buffet - a role for which I had no suitable skills or experience - which was interviewed at the Travellers Fare Office at Victoria! I didn't get the job. I understood there were two unsuitable applicants and it was readvertised.

But I got my day out.

There were indeed "professional" interviewees in the system.

When I was in the civil engineers drawing office at Preston a young man turned up for an interview for (I think) an STO job in the works section. When asked the difference between English and Flemish bonds (types of brickwork) he replied, " I don't know, I don't keep dogs". Needless to say,he didn't get the job.

When talking to the lads afterwards over a cup of tea, he admitted he only applied for jobs for the day out.

 

[Dai Corner]

I was interested to read that enthusiasm for the railways was considered a negative factor. I was interviewed by the Area Civil Engineer (or similar) at Bristol Temple Meads in 1979. Perhaps I'd have got the job if I hadn't mentioned the set number of the DMU that brought me there, paused to listen to a Cl 37 passing or said that I was going to hang around afterwards until I could get something interesting home!

I ended up taking a job in the private sector. The system of perks based on seniority was as complex as BR; chairs with arms, chair with padded arms, leather chair, chair of your own choice, desk on its own, private office, parking space, company car, access to the managers' dining room instead of the canteen. A sign of the times.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Can you tell us more about the officers and messes? Who was entitled to be in the senior, middle, and junior messes - that is to say, what was the difference in rank? What denoted a senior officer vs a middle? Sorry if the questions sound a bit daft, just very curious to hear any stories you may have.

The biggest pool of "mess" attendees was obviously 222 Marylebone Road - hence 3 messes - one for very senior officers including the Chairman , 2 others dependant on grades - say above EG4 , and below (but above MS5) - remember the numbers of officers could be quite modest , for example the Waterloo RHQ ended up as a reservation in the Charing Cross Hotel.

Remember I was pretty junior when all this was extant , so no real experience.

Amused to hear that other perks were provided , including trays of morning and afternoon tea delivered to personal offices for the exalted (or they did at York)

Meanwhile in the real world , one fondly recalls the 222 tea trolley - pushed down the dark corridors by a lady of a certain age , who used to ring a handbell ("bring out your dead" was a common joke , not appreciated) - quite poor tea and a crusted / caked sugar bunker. Other comments on the tea were it was (following military precedent) , it was almost certainly laced with bromide.

Remember - even large commercial organisations fielded senior management dining rooms in this era , and often uniformed attendance. Therefore not unusual.

Do you remember the office wear for "cardigans" (aside from the cardigans )? Also, would this be senior management or all management?

Office based clerical officers - think beige colour clothing. Maybe a "racy" maroon cardigan would add a dash of colour.

Non uniformed managers - say Assistants would get a decent , dark pinstripe suit , some are still in use today. I still have my "issue" overcoat , pass for a funeral director anytime , and supremely warm and still in use for very cold weather.

Still have my supervisors 3 piece grey suit - same as issued to TTI staff , - cannot fit in it for a long time, but retained for nostalgia. Grey polyester tie soon replaced by a plethora of area and business ties.

 

[Rescars]

The biggest pool of "mess" attendees was obviously 222 Marylebone Road - hence 3 messes - one for very senior officers including the Chairman , 2 others dependant on grades - say above EG4 , and below (but above MS5) - remember the numbers of officers could be quite modest , for example the Waterloo RHQ ended up as a reservation in the Charing Cross Hotel.

Remember I was pretty junior when all this was extant , so no real experience.

Amused to hear that other perks were provided , including trays of morning and afternoon tea delivered to personal offices for the exalted (or they did at York)

Meanwhile in the real world , one fondly recalls the 222 tea trolley - pushed down the dark corridors by a lady of a certain age , who used to ring a handbell ("bring out your dead" was a common joke , not appreciated) - quite poor tea and a crusted / caked sugar bunker. Other comments on the tea were it was (following military precedent) , it was almost certainly laced with bromide.

Remember - even large commercial organisations fielded senior management dining rooms in this era , and often uniformed attendance. Therefore not unusual.

Do you remember the office wear for "cardigans" (aside from the cardigans )? Also, would this be senior management or all management?

Office based clerical officers - think beige colour clothing. Maybe a "racy" maroon cardigan would add a dash of colour.

Non uniformed managers - say Assistants would get a decent , dark pinstripe suit , some are still in use today. I still have my "issue" overcoat , pass for a funeral director anytime , and supremely warm and still in use for very cold weather.

Still have my supervisors 3 piece grey suit - same as issued to TTI staff , - cannot fit in it for a long time, but retained for nostalgia. Grey polyester tie soon replaced by a plethora of area and business ties.

Ah yes, the tea trolley - bring your own mug.

On the topic of mess gradations, did others enjoy the benefits of a separate room provided for the lower grades, furnished with tired armchairs, where you could spend the remainder of your lunch hour with a very indifferent cup of instant coffee?

 

[Wagonshop]

I remember being spoken to for taking my tie off at 222.

 

[HighlandSpot]

Does anyone know where I can find an organisational chart of all BR pay grades and divisions?

 

[6Gman]

Remember - even large commercial organisations fielded senior management dining rooms in this era , and often uniformed attendance. Therefore not unusual.

A friend of mine worked for a pharmaceutical company which had separate dining rooms for management/ staff (1980s).

Being an egalitarian sort he used the staff diner even though he was a manager.

Unfortunately it meant he spent every lunchtime dealing with a queue of staff moaning about the management!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Ah yes, the tea trolley - bring your own mug.

On the topic of mess gradations, did others enjoy the benefits of a separate room provided for the lower grades, furnished with tired armchairs, where you could spend the remainder of your lunch hour with a very indifferent cup of instant coffee?

There was a "coffee" room as part of the canteen set up on the country end of Platform 1 at Paddington. Dire instant "coffee" in plastic cups - and seating which would have made my old 6th form common room seem a veritable palace.

Sealink on Eversholt St had a similar set up - went there once after a meeting , it had nets below the ceiling plaster - mate admired this "nautical" touch ,only to be told it was a safety feature as the ceiling was likely to collapse.

Does anyone know where I can find an organisational chart of all BR pay grades and divisions?

No such organisation chart would have existed for long - there were constant changes , cut backs etc - a very broad BRB , Regional or Divisional one would exist , broken down into Areas and so on. Ditto other functions like Sealink / BREL and so - let alone the civils and S&T etc functions.

 

[Bald Rick]

Non uniformed managers - say Assistants would get a decent , dark pinstripe suit , some are still in use today.

I well remember a feature article in Modern Railways in the mid 80s, where Roger Ford shadowed the AM St Pancras* for a day. He went to a meeting where all the attendees were wearing a blue pin stripe suit evidently cut from the same cloth.

* A certain Mr Shooter.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I well remember a feature article in Modern Railways in the mid 80s, where Roger Ford shadowed the AM St Pancras* for a day. He went to a meeting where all the attendees were wearing a blue pin stripe suit evidently cut from the same cloth.

* A certain Mr Shooter.

Ah, yes. The 'KNS' suit. (Don't know what it stood for.) Still got one.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Ah, yes. The 'KNS' suit. (Don't know what it stood for.) Still got one.

Many people have ! - well made - the hats came from Compton Webb , and the bowler hats were from Messrs Dunn.

 

[farleigh]

Fantastic thread - really enjoying reading the memories and anecdotes

 

[Dave W]

Thanks for this - fascinating thread. As a reasonably senior civil servant (not SCS) I note the comparisons to the service of old with some amusement. Wish I had some of these perks now!