BR Managers

[Springs Branch]

I ended up taking a job in the private sector. The system of perks based on seniority was as complex as BR; chairs with arms, chair with padded arms, leather chair, chair of your own choice, desk on its own, private office, parking space, company car, access to the managers' dining room instead of the canteen. A sign of the times.

I worked for an "old school" and hierarchical PLC* in the early 1980s, and well remember all the overt and covert status and perks indicators to show where you were on the management ladder - not that different to BR, but probably less extreme:- Offices with just lino on the floor, offices with half lino / half carpet, office fully carpeted (director level only here). And how cold and wet you did or didn't get in winter walking between your allocated car park and the front door.

I suppose one aspect of mainstream corporate life everyone in BR missed out on, being British Rail and all, was the whole company car malarkey.

IIRC, at one time the lineup of models in the domestic car market was largely based on the need to have enough gradations in trim level, engine size etc. that company car fleets could reflect every step on the management ladder. In effect, BR substituted company car one-upmanship with its travel privileges schemes.


* OT for BR management, but the company I mentioned actually allowed First Class rail travel (and Club Class in the air) to penetrate a fair way down the management food chain.

This might have been because in the swashbuckling early Thatcherite era, any thrusting, young middle manager (my peers) wouldn't be seen dead on BR, and had to be hurtling down the outside lane of a motorway, or if going to London, dashing to Manchester Airport for the BA Super Shuttle.
So booking rail tickets was a niche activity in the Travel Dept., only usually done for a minority of old-timers approaching retirement redundancy.

Against the trend and prevailing culture, I enjoyed regular InterCity Pullman full breakfasts en route to Euston, and made moderate use of BR for cross country business trips such as Manchester to Cardiff via Hereford, or Merseyside to Durham or Poole, using the peace and quiet of a First compartment in a Mark 1 CK for a couple of hours catching up on reading and thinking.
Anyhow, back to BR management . . .

 

[Rescars]

I worked for an "old school" and hierarchical PLC* in the early 1980s, and well remember all the overt and covert status and perks indicators to show where you were on the management ladder - not that different to BR, but probably less extreme:- Offices with just lino on the floor, offices with half lino / half carpet, office fully carpeted (director level only here). And how cold and wet you did or didn't get in winter walking between your allocated car park and the front door.

I suppose one aspect of mainstream corporate life everyone in BR missed out on, being British Rail and all, was the whole company car malarkey.

IIRC, at one time the lineup of models in the domestic car market was largely based on the need to have enough gradations in trim level, engine size etc. that company car fleets could reflect every step on the management ladder. In effect, BR substituted company car one-upmanship with its travel privileges schemes.


* OT for BR management, but the company I mentioned actually allowed First Class rail travel (and Club Class in the air) to penetrate a fair way down the management food chain.

This might have been because in the swashbuckling early Thatcherite era, any thrusting, young middle manager (my peers) wouldn't be seen dead on BR, and had to be hurtling down the outside lane of a motorway, or if going to London, dashing to Manchester Airport for the BA Super Shuttle.
So booking rail tickets was a niche activity in the Travel Dept., only usually done for a minority of old-timers approaching retirement redundancy.

Against the trend and prevailing culture, I enjoyed regular InterCity Pullman full breakfasts en route to Euston, and made moderate use of BR for cross country business trips such as Manchester to Cardiff via Hereford, or Merseyside to Durham or Poole, using the peace and quiet of a First compartment in a Mark 1 CK for a couple of hours catching up on reading and thinking.
Anyhow, back to BR management . . .

I don't recall flying ever being an option at BR! Sleepers were a different matter altogether of course - though achieving genuine sleep in a Mk I sleeper was always a challenge. I once had to make a "two nights in a row" return trip from London to Aberdeen - I recall the sleep deprivation even now!

 

[Tester]

I don't recall flying ever being an option at BR! Sleepers were a different matter altogether of course - though achieving genuine sleep in a Mk I sleeper was always a challenge. I once had to make a "two nights in a row" return trip from London to Aberdeen - I recall the sleep deprivation even now!

Flying most unusual, but not unheard of!

I recall being on a training course at the Railway Engineering School, Derby in the late 1970s with a couple of lads from, I think, Inverness, who had flown down. I remember thinking that extraordinary at the time.

They considered that as they were in the far south they might as well go to London for the evening, and duly appeared the next morning, the worse for wear, having returned on the newspaper train.

 

[gg1]

This is one of the most interesting threads I've read on here for a while, a real eye opener as to the (often comically) hierarchical workplace structures which still existed in certain industries until relatively recently.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Work trips to Eire and once Hamburg were always done on classic routes. BR would issue free passes from the stash held in 222 Marylebone Road , quarded by a peculiar lot of clerical officers who would demand a written authorisation before release of said passes.

I was flown once to Scotland as there were some issues there - which ended up with a December week of 12 hour nights from Monday to Saturday. Went on the BA shuttle and paid cash - retrieved from the petty cash supply. Very rare......

 

[Dr Hoo]

As a BR manager with relatively peripatetic responsibilities at one time I was entitled to hold a BR credit card, with hotels particularly in mind. Air travel was permitted between London <-> Scotland in certain circumstances and on one occasion, when an urgent trip was called for, I did 'buy my own ticket' using the card. This caused major ructions and I was left in no doubt that air travel had to be booked through the recognised travel agent in future.

 

[Alfie1014]

Lots of good reminiscing here, so my two penneth to be added to the mix. One job I ended up in the mid 1980s was in the Business Travel section of Euston Travel Centre. Didn’t particularly like to location or the role as much of my time was spent organising air tickets for senior managers and in those days all the bookings were done via the telephone so lots of time spent holding to awful Muzak. BR did however put me (and the other team members) through the IATA ticketing course, so I could write out the tickets (open jaw anyone!).

When I joined BR in the early 1980s much clerical promotion was done on the basis of signiority rather than ability and it was only as the railway modernised and became more business focussed that this changed to the best person being appointed rather than someone who had ‘served’ their time! This was very frustrating personally as I applied for many jobs that looked more interesting and I knew I could do but was frustrated by my lack of service.

I too just remember the Officers Mess(es) in Euston House from the early 80s again and also officers toilets!

Lastly on the subject of tea trollies the picture attached is of Vi the tea lady in Harwich House (at Liverpool Street) on her last day in service in 1987 (I think) before we moved into the new Hamilton House where there were new fangled machines for the dispensing of beverages!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Fantastic picture. Just what so many BR (large) offices were like.

 

[36270k]

Remember visiting Hamilton House.
Had a strange yellow liquid with lumps in called MaxPax soup.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Mention of the 'Office Move' in the context of Hamilton House reminds me of how difficult that was in the era of paper records and untidy desks. However, they could provide opportunities!

I was working in the old Railway Clearing House building in Eversholt Street near Euston in 1975 (I think) when the London Division of the LM Region had to move out and squeeze into part of Euston House. On the last day in one of the grand clerical offices (that had filing cupboards on a gallery accessed by spiral stairs) the Divisional [delete function name] Manager came in to personally oversee matters. He was carrying a large sack.

"Is this your 'In' tray?"
"Yes, Mr X."
(Empties tray into sack.) "Lost in the move".

Next desk, repeat.

One of the more conscientious clerks had the temerity to ask what on earth was happening.

"This the best chance that we've had in years to get current with our work. If it's important you'll get a 'repeat'; if not, I've saved you having to do anything with it. (Empties tray into sack.) Lost in the move..."

 

[6Gman]

When I joined BR in the early 1980s much clerical promotion was done on the basis of signiority rather than ability and it was only as the railway modernised and became more business focussed that this changed to the best person being appointed rather than someone who had ‘served’ their time! This was very frustrating personally as I applied for many jobs that looked more interesting and I knew I could do but was frustrated by my lack of service.


View attachment 109916

Indeed. The assumption was always that the senior candidate would get the job unless they were very, very poor (or had blotted their copybook) or there was an outstanding more junior candidate.

"Outstanding" in this context generally meaning they were the boss's nephew, or the boss's mistress.

(Joke. Sort of.)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Had a strange yellow liquid with lumps in called MaxPax soup.

Possibly Maxpax's chicken soup. Or maybe their Knorr vegetable soup. Either way, you didn't want to spill the contents anywhere.

 

[306024]

Lastly on the subject of tea trollies the picture attached is of Vi the tea lady in Harwich House (at Liverpool Street) on her last day in service in 1987 (I think) before we moved into the new Hamilton House where there were new fangled machines for the dispensing of beverages!
View attachment 109916

Vi the tea lady, where did you dig that one up from! And the other three who we’ll allow to remain anonymous!! Hope she had some rich tea biscuits on the trolley (a running joke with one of the managers as all the good ones had usually gone by the time the trolley reached him). If you worked in room 21 the tea was fresh, by the time it got to room 24 it was somewhat stronger.

Harwich House at Liverpool St was an old building above the East Side booking office at Liverpool St. All the East Anglian train planning was done there. It had a typing pool, and when I started a nurse stationed on the ground floor who presumably did medicals, and once syringed my ears!

 

[Rescars]

This is a splendid thread! So much of the material here reflects the corporate culture of the organisation. This led to some interesting outcomes, such as a curious view of the economic use of time and resources. For instance, the expense of a photocopier at my depot was quite impossible, but it was fine for a MS1 to spend one day each fortnight travelling up to London for the sole purpose of copying the duty rosters. Also there was a marked reluctance to outsource anything which could be done internally, irrespective of the cost. Does anyone remember the wonderful aroma of coffee emanating from the elderly BTH coffee roasting plant tucked away in the vaults of St Pancras?

 

[telstarbox]

Was it very centralised in London or were places like Derby and York still their own centres of power?

 

[matchmaker]

One thing I can remember about the Civil Service promotion process was that it was sometimes used to get rid of an unpopular/incompetent member of staff, by promoting them to a post in a totally different location! Okay for the original office, not good for the new one. We were landed with one such individual, who was rapidly landed with the nickname "FLUB", for Fat Lazy Useless B*stard

He didn't last, eventually being invalided out with a nervous breakdown.

 

[43096]

One thing I can remember about the Civil Service promotion process was that it was sometimes used to get rid of an unpopular/incompetent member of staff, by promoting them to a post in a totally different location! Okay for the original office, not good for the new one. We were landed with one such individual, who was rapidly landed with the nickname "FLUB", for Fat Lazy Useless B*stard

He didn't last, eventually being invalided out with a nervous breakdown.

Typical Civil Service - move the problem rather than deal with it. Although my employer had a very poor manager who was transferred onto a contract that we were on the point of losing. So dealing with the problem involved TUPEing him to a competitor!

 

[Western 52]

One thing I can remember about the Civil Service promotion process was that it was sometimes used to get rid of an unpopular/incompetent member of staff, by promoting them to a post in a totally different location! Okay for the original office, not good for the new one. We were landed with one such individual, who was rapidly landed with the nickname "FLUB", for Fat Lazy Useless B*stard

He didn't last, eventually being invalided out with a nervous breakdown.

Not just BR and civil service! When I worked in the Post Office in the 80s we had plenty of FLUBs who were just waiting to retire.

 

[edwin_m]

One thing I can remember about the Civil Service promotion process was that it was sometimes used to get rid of an unpopular/incompetent member of staff, by promoting them to a post in a totally different location! Okay for the original office, not good for the new one. We were landed with one such individual, who was rapidly landed with the nickname "FLUB", for Fat Lazy Useless B*stard

He didn't last, eventually being invalided out with a nervous breakdown.

I saw that happen at least once in BR.

 

[6Gman]

Was it very centralised in London or were places like Derby and York still their own centres of power?

It was by no means centralised in London.

The London Midland Region had its HQ and commercial side at Euston but the operating side was concentrated in Crewe from c.1967/8 (absorbing the previous "Line" offices in Derby and Manchester).
When we dealt with the Eastern Region we generally spoke to York (for the ECML) or Liverpool Street for the Great Eastern.
I suspect the Western had something akin to the LM with a Paddington/Swindon split.
The Scottish Region was run from Glasgow.
That there tramway south of the river ( ) was very much divisional-based - I think the South Eastern was based at Beckenham (?), not sure of the others.

One thing I can remember about the Civil Service promotion process was that it was sometimes used to get rid of an unpopular/incompetent member of staff, by promoting them to a post in a totally different location! Okay for the original office, not good for the new one. We were landed with one such individual, who was rapidly landed with the nickname "FLUB", for Fat Lazy Useless B*stard

He didn't last, eventually being invalided out with a nervous breakdown.

We definitely carried some "passengers" at our location (to use an appropriate figure of speech).

At each reorganisation there was a general understanding that they would transfer to a different office so the general uselessness could be distributed fairly.

 

[Gloster]

Recollection from the mid-1980s was that on the WR Swindon was very much dominant. The SR had Divisional Headquarters at Beckenham Junction, East Croydon (?) and Wimbledon: as was normal on the SR they had a fair amount of autonomy.

I was never management, but early in my career (i.e. before they had tumbled to me) I used to get sent my own copy of the circular announcing the railway’s internal management programme: one for the mess room, one for me. (“He went to a public school, he must be management material”.)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The numbers at locations , varied obviously as to where the greater "BR" was in management ideaology - (territories) was the great idea in the 1970's - thus amalgamating regions and divisions - with plans for big new management centres in places like Cardiff (Brunel House) , This then changed (abandoned) to a relocation of "regions" outside London , ergo Western to Swindon and London Midland to Stanier House in Birmingham. With divisions retained for a while.

Then the divisions were "run down" - especially under sectorisation , and of course with the idea of bigger Area Management teams , such that for a while there was stress between Areas / Sectors and Regions. (Swansea for example was about half of Wales - Fishguard / Bridgend to Craven Arms (admittedly a lot of it was green fields or bracken covered hills)

All very complicated - and add in the sales of Sealink , British Transport Hotels and BREL before the major changes of the mid 1990's.

 

[Bald Rick]

Was it very centralised in London or were places like Derby and York still their own centres of power?

Regional HQ were very much centres of power, with different cultures. Even now, the difference between how things are done in, say NR Anglia and NR Southern is noticeable, even though their HQs are a couple of miles apart.

 

[Grumpy]

The biggest pool of "mess" attendees was obviously 222 Marylebone Road - hence 3 messes - one for very senior officers including the Chairman , 2 others dependant on grades - say above EG4 , and below (but above MS5) - remember the numbers of officers could be quite modest , for example the Waterloo RHQ ended up as a reservation in the Charing Cross Hotel.

At 222 in the mid 1970's entry to the Senior messes started at MS4. Below that there was the common canteen. MS4 was also the grade where you gained your personal all stations first class unrestricted travel pass

 

[Dr Hoo]

Recollection from the mid-1980s was that on the WR Swindon was very much dominant. The SR had Divisional Headquarters at Beckenham Junction, East Croydon (?) and Wimbledon: as was normal on the SR they had a fair amount of autonomy.

I was never management, but early in my career (i.e. before they had tumbled to me) I used to get sent my own copy of the circular announcing the railway’s internal management programme: one for the mess room, one for me. (“He went to a public school, he must be management material”.)

Whilst this was certainly true, regional HQ at 'Waterloo' could and did intervene very firmly when it felt the need.

 

[furnessvale]

Whilst this was certainly true, regional HQ at 'Waterloo' could and did intervene very firmly when it felt the need.

Was that the home of a certain Lance Ibbotson, famous for "coming out" as a railway conversion league member AFTER his retirement?

 

[Tio Terry]

I can remember my boss being regraded from MS4 to MS5 as part of a reorganisation. This, apparently, meant he was entitled to an office carpet and a hat stand - which he was very quick to claim!

There were some rather strange travel restrictions imposed at times. I was MS4 with a full First Class All Stations And By Ships - a throwback to when BR also owned Sealink - but my wife and children still had the cards with boxes that you had to date when you travelled, they would only get the same travel pass as me when I reached MS5. This created a few anomalies, On the 17:00 out of Liverpool St to Norwich I could travel First Class, with my dog, but the wife and children had to travel Standard!

When I first went to Croydon there was still an Officers Mess on the top floor of Wellesley Grove. To be allowed in I had to be taken there by an existing member who introduced me to the lady in charge - a rather intimidating dragon like woman - who needed to be convinced that I was allowed in. The food was exactly the same as that served in the normal staff canteen but there was waiter service and they would also serve you with your alcoholic beverage at the table! You got a Mess Bill every month.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Was that the home of a certain Lance Ibbotson, famous for "coming out" as a railway conversion league member AFTER his retirement?

He published his memoirs privately , and I got a copy of said book in the Oxfam bookshop.

Whilst there is no doubt he made a strong contribution in the war , he does not come over as a particularly amenable character , albeit one who had a strong like of the Mess culture - a swan served at one dinner , and complaints about the lack of crystalized ginger at Waterloo (it was available at Paddington) ......

Let's concentrate on the really important things.

 

[Dave W]

The numbers at locations , varied obviously as to where the greater "BR" was in management ideaology - (territories) was the great idea in the 1970's - thus amalgamating regions and divisions - with plans for big new management centres in places like Cardiff (Brunel House) , This then changed (abandoned) to a relocation of "regions" outside London , ergo Western to Swindon and London Midland to Stanier House in Birmingham. With divisions retained for a while.

Plus ça change, and all that... Nothing I see in my 9.5 years in the civil service is new, anymore. I strongly suspect - based on this thread amongst others - that the railway went in similar cycles.

It would be an interesting exercise - probably not for this thread - to see how privatisation changed all of this, and if any of the quirks remain!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

When I first went to Croydon there was still an Officers Mess on the top floor of Wellesley Grove. To be allowed in I had to be taken there by an existing member who introduced me to the lady in charge - a rather intimidating dragon like woman - who needed to be convinced that I was allowed in. The food was exactly the same as that served in the normal staff canteen but there was waiter service and they would also serve you with your alcoholic beverage at the table! You got a Mess Bill every month.

There was also a bar on the top floor of Southern Hse although in early 80's when i was there only opened on Fridays from recollection but didn't last that long before it was shut.

Canteens at major stations such as Paddington were divided into a wages staff one (drivers etc) , and a salaried staff one. Both served pretty identical meals , - but there was a demarcation based on uniform /or lack of.

Waterloo had a operating staff canteen (did great fry ups all day long at good price) over on the Windsor side before it got knocked down for WIT and there were two canteens accessed off the concourse roughly where the higher level entrance to Waterloo East was subsequently created. As i remember left for plebs and right for senior management but they could invite you in and pretty sure it was table service.

Another benefit was you were allowed to claim expenses with the highest grade you were with and as you would expect in our fair society the higher graded you were the better the expense rate and you got to claim it whether you spent any money or not. Anyhow if you had a job that took you out your home location everyday was a nice supplement to the salary in the 80's. Of course best income booster was to get a job that plenty of overtime at enhanced rates. My mistake though was to go straight from STO B to MS 1 where you got no enhancements so your earnings were lower than most of staff working for you. That was a flaw in the system and plenty of talented people would never move on from PTO as they couldn't afford to.

I also recollect that many technical and management grades had an annual increment for each year you did upto a number of years irrespective of performance in those days plus whatever the unions got for inflation. That all got done away with when the HAY Management scoring system came in which TSSA sold us down the drain on and i resigned from them and my position with P&T Section at Southern Hse.