Bradford Stations Consultation / Improvements

[Tetchytyke]

Could it be something to do with Bradford suffering the worst long distance services of any major British city, terrible traffic problems, and years of economic stagnation ?

The traffic in Bradford is no worse than anywhere else, and the worst traffic hotspots are nowhere near a railway line.

And, even speaking as a Bradfordian, I'd struggle to say it's a major city any more. It hasn't been since world war one.

Broadway is utterly crap but look how long it took them to build it.

Bradford Crossrail is nothing more than trying to find a problem for a solution that only exists in the minds of crayonistas.

Colne-Skipton would do more for the council district of Bradford.

For me the benefits of a singular ‘Bradford Central’ is the at least doubling of services and individuals arriving and departing from a Bradford city centre site, giving a new focal point for shops, cafes and businesses to hopefully thrive and regenerate the city centre

Both the Interchange and Forster Square are both a flat five minute walk from Broadway, which is supposed to be the shiny new hub for Bradford's businesses.

Bradford city centre doesn't need more "regeneration". It's had quite enough money pumped into it. Bradford needs to accept that it's a provincial town that happens to have a cathedral.

The idea that a central station would somehow attract people into the city, that people would desert Leeds and Manchester for it, is quite frankly laughable.

 

[158756]

The traffic in Bradford is no worse than anywhere else, and the worst traffic hotspots are nowhere near a railway line.

And, even speaking as a Bradfordian, I'd struggle to say it's a major city any more. It hasn't been since world war one.

Broadway is utterly crap but look how long it took them to build it.

Bradford Crossrail is nothing more than trying to find a problem for a solution that only exists in the minds of crayonistas.

Colne-Skipton would do more for the council district of Bradford.



Both the Interchange and Forster Square are both a flat five minute walk from Broadway, which is supposed to be the shiny new hub for Bradford's businesses.

Bradford city centre doesn't need more "regeneration". It's had quite enough money pumped into it. Bradford needs to accept that it's a provincial town that happens to have a cathedral.

The idea that a central station would somehow attract people into the city, that people would desert Leeds and Manchester for it, is quite frankly laughable.

I agree a central station won't do very much, if anything for Bradford, and Bradford is not going to be a great city of the 21st century. The continuing obsession, not unique to Bradford, with new retail space is a puzzle too. But the powers-that-be have to be seen to be doing something. What does it mean to be a provincial town with a cathedral? Poverty and dereliction? The place is too big for everyone to commute to Leeds. It has many of the same problems as other Northern towns and cities, but isn't getting the attention of a Leeds or Manchester and is on a different scale to a Burnley or Barnsley.

 

[johntea]

Well Bradford now has a brand new cinema and restaurant chains about a 10 minute walk from the other cinema and restaurant chains, the mind really does boggle sometimes!

Still, at least you can pay for your cinema ticket and meal by having a bet in the Ladbrokes, Paddy Power, William Hill, Arcade or Betfred all in a row directly opposite!

 

[Tetchytyke]

What does it mean to be a provincial town with a cathedral? Poverty and dereliction?

Do the simple things instead of blowing all your money on overblown grandiose plans that'll never amount to anything. Accept your position and build to that.

Just think what £200m would do if it was spent on high quality bus infrastructure, for instance (and the awful guided bus lane on Manchester Road is anothr example of pointless grandiosity, tbh).

 

[Bantamzen]

There seems to be a growing misconception of what is being proposed on this thread. So to clarify the position, the suggested new alignment & station through / underneath Bradford is not a standalone project, it is part of the wider proposal for a new & faster alignment between Leeds & Manchester. The reason that Bradford has been included as a possible stopping location is that a) It is close to or on a possible preferred alignment for the entire route & b) There will be potential economic benefits to Bradford & it's Metropolitan area. Just as HS2 is not simply a faster way to get from the Midlands / North to London, this proposal is not just about giving Bradford a cross-city link.

If, and in all honesty it is still a very big if, this does get to a planning stage with a view for application for funding, it is highly unlikely that there will be many or indeed any direct services from place like Skipton or Ilkley along the new route towards Manchester proposed. Almost certainly this will be exclusively for Leeds-Manchester services calling at Bradford. However it does open up the opportunity to allow for easier transfers between Aire & Wharfe services onto Calder services if the alignment allowed for a link between the two (i.e. with the new services using the existing Leeds-Shipley-Forster Square alignment, then diving into a new station before linking up with any new line). And despite what many have tried to claim, there is significant North-South (as well as West-East) flow through Bradford which causes no end of traffic congestion every single day. Indeed it has got so bad that the main bus operators like First have all but given up an anything but a handful of local cross city services, citing traffic congestion as the reason for dumping most. Even First Leeds with it's problems has not yet had to take this option on most cross-city operations. So I dispute that Bradford's problems are only as bad as other cities, I'd say from regular personal experience that they are considerably worse & why certain hot-spots amongst many still feature in some of the country's worst problem areas.

Should anything come from this proposal, then in my humble opinion it makes sense to maximise the potential of a new route. Adding a large city & surrounding area, where there are already considerable flows along the proposed route makes economic sense even if it does add to the initial costs. Economically it could open up places like the Aire valley to more business opportunities, improve Bradford's appeal to business, something that the city is desperate to having recently been snubbed by Inland Revenue for a large new government hub, and help service large and increasingly complex commuter & leisure flows as thousands of new homes go up in the area. Its also worth pointing out at this stage that aside from a few delusional councillors, nobody is expecting Bradford to compete with the retail sectors in Leeds & Manchester. However these cities are becoming increasingly congested & difficult to reach, especially by road, and with a growing population Bradford has the chance to at least claw back some of the retail opportunities lost to it over two decades and better service it's own population. I do understand why some might object to Bradford benefiting where others may not, but the case for Bradford & regenerating it's economy is growing and a project like this might help towards that aim. If other areas feel they should come before Bradford then frankly they need to make a more compelling case and not just bemoan somewhere else being the focus.

 

[47802]

There seems to be a growing misconception of what is being proposed on this thread. So to clarify the position, the suggested new alignment & station through / underneath Bradford is not a standalone project, it is part of the wider proposal for a new & faster alignment between Leeds & Manchester. The reason that Bradford has been included as a possible stopping location is that a) It is close to or on a possible preferred alignment for the entire route & b) There will be potential economic benefits to Bradford & it's Metropolitan area. Just as HS2 is not simply a faster way to get from the Midlands / North to London, this proposal is not just about giving Bradford a cross-city link.

If, and in all honesty it is still a very big if, this does get to a planning stage with a view for application for funding, it is highly unlikely that there will be many or indeed any direct services from place like Skipton or Ilkley along the new route towards Manchester proposed. Almost certainly this will be exclusively for Leeds-Manchester services calling at Bradford. However it does open up the opportunity to allow for easier transfers between Aire & Wharfe services onto Calder services if the alignment allowed for a link between the two (i.e. with the new services using the existing Leeds-Shipley-Forster Square alignment, then diving into a new station before linking up with any new line). And despite what many have tried to claim, there is significant North-South (as well as West-East) flow through Bradford which causes no end of traffic congestion every single day. Indeed it has got so bad that the main bus operators like First have all but given up an anything but a handful of local cross city services, citing traffic congestion as the reason for dumping most. Even First Leeds with it's problems has not yet had to take this option on most cross-city operations. So I dispute that Bradford's problems are only as bad as other cities, I'd say from regular personal experience that they are considerably worse & why certain hot-spots amongst many still feature in some of the country's worst problem areas.

Should anything come from this proposal, then in my humble opinion it makes sense to maximise the potential of a new route. Adding a large city & surrounding area, where there are already considerable flows along the proposed route makes economic sense even if it does add to the initial costs. Economically it could open up places like the Aire valley to more business opportunities, improve Bradford's appeal to business, something that the city is desperate to having recently been snubbed by Inland Revenue for a large new government hub, and help service large and increasingly complex commuter & leisure flows as thousands of new homes go up in the area. Its also worth pointing out at this stage that aside from a few delusional councillors, nobody is expecting Bradford to compete with the retail sectors in Leeds & Manchester. However these cities are becoming increasingly congested & difficult to reach, especially by road, and with a growing population Bradford has the chance to at least claw back some of the retail opportunities lost to it over two decades and better service it's own population. I do understand why some might object to Bradford benefiting where others may not, but the case for Bradford & regenerating it's economy is growing and a project like this might help towards that aim. If other areas feel they should come before Bradford then frankly they need to make a more compelling case and not just bemoan somewhere else being the focus.

Having lived on and off around the Bradford district for most of my life along with working in many other of the UK cities for some periods of time to say that Bradford's Traffic problems are any worse than most other UK cities is I think complete nonsense, although semi retired I worked part time delivering parcels around Bradford in the run up to Christmas so I know what the traffic is like and where the worst bottlenecks are. I think its also interesting to note that the village I live in 5 miles from Bradford and 7 miles from Leeds and if you go back 40 years the Bus service to Bradford from my village was far better than the Bus service to Leeds but now its the other way around no doubt reflecting where the jobs are now i.e. Leeds not Bradford. Retail wise Broadway is nice but all it has done is transfer shops from one part of town to another leaving a load of empty shops in its wake because there is insufficient demand.

If Bradford can be added to the proposed new line at minimal cost because its the best route anyway then fair enough, but if its extra substancial cost just to serve Bradford then you have to question its value.

I'm sure many people who live in or near to Bradford actually hate the place including myself who never goes to the centre by choice which kind of says a lot really.

 

[Bantamzen]

Having lived on and off around the Bradford district for most of my life along with working in many other of the UK cities for some periods of time to say that Bradford's Traffic problems are any worse than most other UK cities is I think complete nonsense, although semi retired I worked part time delivering parcels around Bradford in the run up to Christmas so I know what the traffic is like and where the worst bottlenecks are. I think its also interesting to note that the village I live in 5 miles from Bradford and 7 miles from Leeds and if you go back 40 years the Bus service to Bradford from my village was far better than the Bus service to Leeds but now its the other way around no doubt reflecting where the jobs are now i.e. Leeds not Bradford. Retail wise Broadway is nice but all it has done is transfer shops from one part of town to another leaving a load of empty shops in its wake because there is insufficient demand.

If Bradford can be added to the proposed new line at minimal cost because its the best route anyway then fair enough, but if its extra substancial cost just to serve Bradford then you have to question its value.

I'm sure many people who live in or near to Bradford actually hate the place including myself who never goes to the centre by choice which kind of says a lot really.

I don't know when you were working around Bradford, but I can promise you that the issue of traffic being worse is not nonsense at all. Its all very well telling us what it used to be like, and even in years gone by it was bad, but it is getting worse and is easily as bad & worse than many other places. As I have said, First have all but pulled cross-city services to protect timings as it is near impossible to keep them running along two or more major corridors in Bradford at peak times to anything like the published timings, and the same is true even for considerable times in the off-peaks. Even a city as busy as Leeds the same company continues to manage such services with a bit of padding in the timetables.

But back on topic, the cross city link that might form part of the proposals isn't just about linking parts of Bradford, that will be no more than a welcome side-effect. The various Transport for the North proposals are more about opening up better links between centres, and opening up economic opportunities as part of that.

P.S. Your final remark rather smacks of the cynical comments that often appear in the T&A comments sections, often from people proudly telling anyone that will listen that they made the right move in getting away from Bradford. But actually go to Bradford, for example the Broadway or the City's blooming indy bar scene around places like North Parade, and a very different picture emerges. I'm sure it wasn't your intention to sound like that, but this is how easy it becomes to make comment from afar without considering the position as it is. Bradford still has it's problems that's for sure, but it isn't as bad as some like to make out & frankly save more people milling about has the same problems that places like Leeds does.

 

[quantinghome]

There seems to be a growing misconception of what is being proposed on this thread. So to clarify the position, the suggested new alignment & station through / underneath Bradford is not a standalone project, it is part of the wider proposal for a new & faster alignment between Leeds & Manchester. The reason that Bradford has been included as a possible stopping location is that a) It is close to or on a possible preferred alignment for the entire route & b) There will be potential economic benefits to Bradford & it's Metropolitan area. Just as HS2 is not simply a faster way to get from the Midlands / North to London, this proposal is not just about giving Bradford a cross-city link.

If, and in all honesty it is still a very big if, this does get to a planning stage with a view for application for funding, it is highly unlikely that there will be many or indeed any direct services from place like Skipton or Ilkley along the new route towards Manchester proposed. Almost certainly this will be exclusively for Leeds-Manchester services calling at Bradford. However it does open up the opportunity to allow for easier transfers between Aire & Wharfe services onto Calder services if the alignment allowed for a link between the two (i.e. with the new services using the existing Leeds-Shipley-Forster Square alignment, then diving into a new station before linking up with any new line). And despite what many have tried to claim, there is significant North-South (as well as West-East) flow through Bradford which causes no end of traffic congestion every single day. Indeed it has got so bad that the main bus operators like First have all but given up an anything but a handful of local cross city services, citing traffic congestion as the reason for dumping most. Even First Leeds with it's problems has not yet had to take this option on most cross-city operations. So I dispute that Bradford's problems are only as bad as other cities, I'd say from regular personal experience that they are considerably worse & why certain hot-spots amongst many still feature in some of the country's worst problem areas.

I can see the thread has mutated from a discussion on NPR through Bradford to the perennial debate about Bradford Crossrail i.e. a North-South line linking the two existing stations or replacing them with a single station somewhere (where?).

I can't see NPR using the Leeds-Shipley-Forster Square alignment in all honesty. It's too indirect and although much of it was four-track at one time it would basically need a new alignment to produce the linespeeds needed for NPR - the plan is for a sub-10 minute Leeds-Bradford journey time. If you want to link Airedale and Wharfedale to the Bradford NPR station (wherever that is), a light rail line running from Shipley to Forster Square along the old four-track alignment, then street-running through Bradford city centre, may be a more realistic option.

 

[47802]

I don't know when you were working around Bradford, but I can promise you that the issue of traffic being worse is not nonsense at all. Its all very well telling us what it used to be like, and even in years gone by it was bad, but it is getting worse and is easily as bad & worse than many other places. As I have said, First have all but pulled cross-city services to protect timings as it is near impossible to keep them running along two or more major corridors in Bradford at peak times to anything like the published timings, and the same is true even for considerable times in the off-peaks. Even a city as busy as Leeds the same company continues to manage such services with a bit of padding in the timetables.

But back on topic, the cross city link that might form part of the proposals isn't just about linking parts of Bradford, that will be no more than a welcome side-effect. The various Transport for the North proposals are more about opening up better links between centres, and opening up economic opportunities as part of that.

P.S. Your final remark rather smacks of the cynical comments that often appear in the T&A comments sections, often from people proudly telling anyone that will listen that they made the right move in getting away from Bradford. But actually go to Bradford, for example the Broadway or the City's blooming indy bar scene around places like North Parade, and a very different picture emerges. I'm sure it wasn't your intention to sound like that, but this is how easy it becomes to make comment from afar without considering the position as it is. Bradford still has it's problems that's for sure, but it isn't as bad as some like to make out & frankly save more people milling about has the same problems that places like Leeds does.

A comment from afar what sitting here writing this 5 miles from the centre with a Bradford Post Code. I was working around all Bradford Post codes, In the run up Christmas last year, when Traffic is usually at its worst, and yes there areas which are really bad sometimes, but at the end of the no worse than many other Northern Cities or many other cities in the UK, Try commuting around Manchester/Stockport then you will know what Traffic congestion is.

In any case this proposed fast alignment between Leeds and Manchester is likely to be of limited benefit for many local Bradford commuters, is likely to fix the queues through Shipley, or the queues coming from the south on the A650, M606 etc I doubt it.

 

[Bantamzen]

A comment from afar what sitting here writing this 5 miles from the centre with a Bradford Post Code. I was working around all Bradford Post codes, In the run up Christmas last year, when Traffic is usually at its worst, and yes there areas which are really bad sometimes, but at the end of the no worse than many other Northern Cities or many other cities in the UK, Try commuting around Manchester/Stockport then you will know what Traffic congestion is.

In any case this proposed fast alignment between Leeds and Manchester is likely to be of limited benefit for many local Bradford commuters, is likely to fix the queues through Shipley, or the queues coming from the south on the A650, M606 etc I doubt it.

My comment wasn't aimed at you, it was just commentary on how your comment sounded in a wider context. I appreciate that you live in the area, as do I & so you'll be more than aware that bus companies no longer feel capable of running cross-city services in a city that had a lot of them. That's no coincidence, for example getting from Bradford, through Shipley and beyond can take 30, 40 even 60 minutes at times. Even just a few years ago it wasn't this bad, I know because I used to commute from Bradford and often took the bus over the train. I wouldn't dream of this now as bus times simply cannot keep to even very padded timetables originating from the city centre. And as for moving between Shipley & Leeds, it is probably fair to say you could probably cycle along the canal in the same amount of time & if there is any really bad disruption you could probably walk it too. But for the record I have regularly used buses or taxis in Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham & to a lesser extent Liverpool, so I do have a fair idea & am not just making flippant comments.

I'm not sure why you think that a fast alignment won't benefit Bradford Commuters, take a look at the trains & X6 / 72 between the two cities in each direction in both peaks and you'll find them very busy, as I'm sure you will agree as are the roads in general. And better connectivity to the south and west would get used well too, just stand on the Shipley-Airedale Road on any given day and watch the volumes of traffic heading in those directions. There really does seem to be some real aversion to making any kind of investment in Bradford, from within the city boundaries and beyond, and frankly I am nonplussed why people within Bradford feel so strongly about it. Maybe its the long term pessimism that prevails, the old "Pity Poor Bradford" syndrome. A lot has changed in the last few years and possible projects like this can & would act as a further catalyst to growth.

 

[Bantamzen]

I can see the thread has mutated from a discussion on NPR through Bradford to the perennial debate about Bradford Crossrail i.e. a North-South line linking the two existing stations or replacing them with a single station somewhere (where?).

I can't see NPR using the Leeds-Shipley-Forster Square alignment in all honesty. It's too indirect and although much of it was four-track at one time it would basically need a new alignment to produce the linespeeds needed for NPR - the plan is for a sub-10 minute Leeds-Bradford journey time. If you want to link Airedale and Wharfedale to the Bradford NPR station (wherever that is), a light rail line running from Shipley to Forster Square along the old four-track alignment, then street-running through Bradford city centre, may be a more realistic option.

I haven't been the one diverting it, I have been pointing out that any proposal that saw a cross-Bradford link would be part of a bigger TfN scheme, which is exactly what is being looked at as we speak. So again, and I can't stress this enough I am not seeing it as a Aire/Wharfe link to the Calder Valley and beyond, indeed I have pointed this out quite clearly. However unless the Bradford-Leeds section gets an additional 7-9 miles worth of bore, Bradford sits in a deep bowl with the only flat(ish) exit to the North towards Shipley and this is the only viable above-surface route towards Leeds. And frankly Shipley-Leeds can be done in 10 minutes, and a faster alignment from Bradford need only take a couple more. The big sticking point is Shipley itself with something of a dogleg, although the canal basin does widen there so it is not beyond the bounds of possibility to bypass the station altogether.

Of course as there will be quite a lot of tunnelling required to head to Manchester tunnelling east may well be considered. But even then, would the government and Network Rail really advocate 3 stations for Bradford, or a new combination of the existing two? It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that the existing alignment around Forster Square could be sunk to approach the new bores to allow better connectivity for passengers changing trains with a direct link to the Interchange for classic services. This would achieve exactly what I have advocating, better connectivity but not necessarily direct services.

 

[cle]

I'm no zealot for the Bradford 'Crossrail' and do realise that it isn't Manchester or Leeds, and is unlikely to be. It's an oversized 'small northern town' like Oldham or Burnley, as others said.

However if thinking about linking up networks, new opportunities, and where continued electrification and metro route development in the north might occur, now that the NW wires project is nearing completion, it isn't a horrible idea given the Forster Square lines are all wired and well-used (perhaps moreso to Leeds). And we need to think bigger, that if this would happen then of course works would need to be done to increase capacity along Calder - signalling, passing loops/platforms and so on. It links a lot more places than the Huddersfield line between Manchester and Leeds after all.

 

[B&I]

Having lived on and off around the Bradford district for most of my life along with working in many other of the UK cities for some periods of time to say that Bradford's Traffic problems are any worse than most other UK cities is I think complete nonsense, although semi retired I worked part time delivering parcels around Bradford in the run up to Christmas so I know what the traffic is like and where the worst bottlenecks are. I think its also interesting to note that the village I live in 5 miles from Bradford and 7 miles from Leeds and if you go back 40 years the Bus service to Bradford from my village was far better than the Bus service to Leeds but now its the other way around no doubt reflecting where the jobs are now i.e. Leeds not Bradford. Retail wise Broadway is nice but all it has done is transfer shops from one part of town to another leaving a load of empty shops in its wake because there is insufficient demand.

If Bradford can be added to the proposed new line at minimal cost because its the best route anyway then fair enough, but if its extra substancial cost just to serve Bradford then you have to question its value.

I'm sure many people who live in or near to Bradford actually hate the place including myself who never goes to the centre by choice which kind of says a lot really.

In fairness your posts suggest that you hate everywhere. Unfortunately, the longer I spend living in England, the clearer it becomes to.me that investment decisions are largely made on the basis of these kinds of prejudices against particular places

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I agree with the poster who pointed out that despite the city's reputation, there are sections of Bradford's economy that are thriving... though as they (the indie-bars and so on) slightly rely on Bradford maintaining its "underdog" status.

A great deal of the anti-Bradford sentiment is in my opinion thinly-veiled racism though. The same old "jokes" from school playgrounds in Huddersfield about how in Bradford one must cover their face and so on. Except now the people making those jokes are in their 30s and 40s and have some power. Dewsbury, though much smaller, suffers similarly due to having an ethnically-diverse population.

I still don't see a need for Bradford Crossrail, it'd just make maps look neater. If Bradford gets a stop on NPR I'd look at locating the platforms between the two classic stations, with interchange facilities for both. A travelator or people-mover could be incorporated for transfers between BDI/buses and BDQ and linked to the high-speed station.

 

[Eric]

Well Bradford now has a brand new cinema and restaurant chains about a 10 minute walk from the other cinema and restaurant chains, the mind really does boggle sometimes!

Still, at least you can pay for your cinema ticket and meal by having a bet in the Ladbrokes, Paddy Power, William Hill, Arcade or Betfred all in a row directly opposite!

There seems to be a growing misconception of what is being proposed on this thread. So to clarify the position, the suggested new alignment & station through / underneath Bradford is not a standalone project, it is part of the wider proposal for a new & faster alignment between Leeds & Manchester. The reason that Bradford has been included as a possible stopping location is that a) It is close to or on a possible preferred alignment for the entire route & b) There will be potential economic benefits to Bradford & it's Metropolitan area. Just as HS2 is not simply a faster way to get from the Midlands / North to London, this proposal is not just about giving Bradford a cross-city link.

If, and in all honesty it is still a very big if, this does get to a planning stage with a view for application for funding, it is highly unlikely that there will be many or indeed any direct services from place like Skipton or Ilkley along the new route towards Manchester proposed. Almost certainly this will be exclusively for Leeds-Manchester services calling at Bradford. However it does open up the opportunity to allow for easier transfers between Aire & Wharfe services onto Calder services if the alignment allowed for a link between the two (i.e. with the new services using the existing Leeds-Shipley-Forster Square alignment, then diving into a new station before linking up with any new line). And despite what many have tried to claim, there is significant North-South (as well as West-East) flow through Bradford which causes no end of traffic congestion every single day. Indeed it has got so bad that the main bus operators like First have all but given up an anything but a handful of local cross city services, citing traffic congestion as the reason for dumping most. Even First Leeds with it's problems has not yet had to take this option on most cross-city operations. So I dispute that Bradford's problems are only as bad as other cities, I'd say from regular personal experience that they are considerably worse & why certain hot-spots amongst many still feature in some of the country's worst problem areas.

Should anything come from this proposal, then in my humble opinion it makes sense to maximise the potential of a new route. Adding a large city & surrounding area, where there are already considerable flows along the proposed route makes economic sense even if it does add to the initial costs. Economically it could open up places like the Aire valley to more business opportunities, improve Bradford's appeal to business, something that the city is desperate to having recently been snubbed by Inland Revenue for a large new government hub, and help service large and increasingly complex commuter & leisure flows as thousands of new homes go up in the area. Its also worth pointing out at this stage that aside from a few delusional councillors, nobody is expecting Bradford to compete with the retail sectors in Leeds & Manchester. However these cities are becoming increasingly congested & difficult to reach, especially by road, and with a growing population Bradford has the chance to at least claw back some of the retail opportunities lost to it over two decades and better service it's own population. I do understand why some might object to Bradford benefiting where others may not, but the case for Bradford & regenerating it's economy is growing and a project like this might help towards that aim. If other areas feel they should come before Bradford then frankly they need to make a more compelling case and not just bemoan somewhere else being the focus.

My feelings in a more constructed way.

For those asking the proposed location of the new underground central station is between the job centre and the old Exchange station (directly over the road from little Germany and Broadway).

I'm suprised Bradford Council don't make Little Germany the business district.

 

[Eric]

I'm no zealot for the Bradford 'Crossrail' and do realise that it isn't Manchester or Leeds, and is unlikely to be. It's an oversized 'small northern town' like Oldham or Burnley, as others said.

However if thinking about linking up networks, new opportunities, and where continued electrification and metro route development in the north might occur, now that the NW wires project is nearing completion, it isn't a horrible idea given the Forster Square lines are all wired and well-used (perhaps moreso to Leeds). And we need to think bigger, that if this would happen then of course works would need to be done to increase capacity along Calder - signalling, passing loops/platforms and so on. It links a lot more places than the Huddersfield line between Manchester and Leeds after all.

What a ridiculous post.

 

[47802]

Personally I think that we might be better off with electrification and significant capacity improvements to both the main TPE route and the Calder Valley route rather than NPR

 

[tbtc]

the powers-that-be have to be seen to be doing something. What does it mean to be a provincial town with a cathedral? Poverty and dereliction? The place is too big for everyone to commute to Leeds. It has many of the same problems as other Northern towns and cities, but isn't getting the attention of a Leeds or Manchester and is on a different scale to a Burnley or Barnsley.

My impression of Bradford people is that they think the place is in the "Leeds or Manchester" league, whereas its really not. A bit like the way that Leeds United fans seem to think that they have a "rivalry" with Manchester United (which I don't think Manchester United fans lose much sleep over).

Delusions.

But at least other secondary places have tried to be a bit more creative - Wakefield is investing in arts, Bradford is investing in shops - as an outsider I'm more likely to want to visit somewhere that offers something different to what there is in the town/city I live in - and I'm not going to go all the way to Bradford to visit a NEXT/ TopMan that's fairly similar to the one a couple of miles away from my house.

despite what many have tried to claim, there is significant North-South (as well as West-East) flow through Bradford which causes no end of traffic congestion every single day. Indeed it has got so bad that the main bus operators like First have all but given up an anything but a handful of local cross city services, citing traffic congestion as the reason for dumping most. Even First Leeds with it's problems has not yet had to take this option on most cross-city operations. So I dispute that Bradford's problems are only as bad as other cities, I'd say from regular personal experience that they are considerably worse & why certain hot-spots amongst many still feature in some of the country's worst problem areas

It could be something as mundane as the fact that...

Bradford has a fairly small/compact city centre (whereas, in Leeds, there will be passengers wanting the Markets or Headrow or Station, so a cross city service is more necessary
Bradford doesn't have as many big "out of town" destinations (e.g. White Rose Centre, Meadowhall), so there's less need for a service to somewhere the other side of town
Terminating many/most services at the Interchange allows First to squeeze more capacity out of a finite number of buses (e.g. an incoming Thornton service can become an outgoing Clayton service)

Can't have it both ways though - the argument looks like "there's so much cross-city traffic in Bradford that the bus company has abandoned cross-city services".

aside from a few delusional councillors, nobody is expecting Bradford to compete with the retail sectors in Leeds & Manchester. However these cities are becoming increasingly congested & difficult to reach, especially by road

Bradford has such bad traffic congestion, worse than other places, but it'll compete well against Leeds and Manchester because their roads are becoming increasingly congested?

Retail wise Broadway is nice but all it has done is transfer shops from one part of town to another leaving a load of empty shops in its wake because there is insufficient demand

That's how it felt when I visited - Bradford was much like Derby/ Stoke/ Sunderland, where the indoor shopping centre looks/feels lovely/ busy but its sucked life out of the traditional streets - the only remotely busy shop between Broadway and the big fountains was Waterstones - otherwise the remaining bits of the city centre felt a bit redundant. It worries me that "Sevenstone" will have a similar affect on Sheffield (lots of existing shops are moving there or to the new retail space on the Moor, but will leave behind some big gaps on Fargate etc).

A great deal of the anti-Bradford sentiment is in my opinion thinly-veiled racism though

I don't think that's how things are on the Forum at least - its more the disconnect between locals (who proudly point out that Bradford is one of the five biggest cities in the country) and outsiders (who put the place in the same bracket as Derby/ Stoke/ Sunderland - not insignificant but not as significant as people from there think it is).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With regard to the "veiled racism" comment I made, I should've clarified that I wasn't referring to any comments on this thread or elsewhere on the forum. To avoid any further confusion, I'll state categorically that I meant in general when people IRL slag off Bradford (or indeed Dewsbury).

 

[cle]

What a ridiculous post.

Don’t you approve of an extension to the wired Northern network?

 

[Eric]

Don’t you approve of an extension to the wired Northern network?

The poster comparing Bradford to a large town the size of Burnley.

Bradford is the fifth biggest UK city going on 2011 census data with a population of

• Bradford – 522,452

It's sad that there's so much anti Bradford bias on here.

I would have thought that everyone would be behind the new central station and a link between the Calder and Aire valleys.

 

[47802]

The poster comparing Bradford to a large town the size of Burnley.

Bradford is the fifth biggest UK city going on 2011 census data with a population of

• Bradford – 522,452

It's sad that there's so much anti Bradford bias on here.

I would have thought that everyone would be behind the new central station and a link between the Calder and Aire valleys.

I don't see it as a massive benefit for the cost and would rather see substancial money spent on improving the existing Transpennine routes including the Calder Valley route, and also possibly look at a some tram/tram train solutions for the city, and yes some road improvement schemes. The Topology of Bradford is such that it will be difficult for Rail Based solutions to solve a lot of Bradford's Transport issues.

 

[quantinghome]

The poster comparing Bradford to a large town the size of Burnley.

Bradford is the fifth biggest UK city going on 2011 census data with a population of

• Bradford – 522,452

It's sad that there's so much anti Bradford bias on here.

I would have thought that everyone would be behind the new central station and a link between the Calder and Aire valleys.

Bradford (and Leeds to be fair) both have their population numbers boosted by the inclusion of surrounding towns - Keighley, Bingley, Ilkley, Guiseley, Garforth, Morley etc. However, even taking this into account, I agree it's not a sensible thing to say that Bradford and Burnley are comparable in size.

I don't think that a cross-Bradford link between the Aire and Calder Valleys is worth doing. I can't see enough people wanting to travel from Bingley to Halifax to make it worthwhile. You think differently. Differences of opinion are not unknown on internet discussion boards and are certainly not 'anti Bradford bias'. I want to see Bradford do well - I just don't think the project you propose is part of the solution.

 

[Eric]

Bradford (and Leeds to be fair) both have their population numbers boosted by the inclusion of surrounding towns - Keighley, Bingley, Ilkley, Guiseley, Garforth, Morley etc. However, even taking this into account, I agree it's not a sensible thing to say that Bradford and Burnley are comparable in size.

I don't think that a cross-Bradford link between the Aire and Calder Valleys is worth doing. I can't see enough people wanting to travel from Bingley to Halifax to make it worthwhile. You think differently. Differences of opinion are not unknown on internet discussion boards and are certainly not 'anti Bradford bias'. I want to see Bradford do well - I just don't think the project you propose is part of the solution.

If they are planning on tunneling under the Interchange and linking up with the Aire Valley line, then why not link the two existing stations?

I'm not expecting trains to run from Keighley to Halifax via Bradford, but if the new central station could have two bays either side of the new proposed high speed line then it would make connectivity a lot easier than present.

 

[Bantamzen]

Bradford (and Leeds to be fair) both have their population numbers boosted by the inclusion of surrounding towns - Keighley, Bingley, Ilkley, Guiseley, Garforth, Morley etc. However, even taking this into account, I agree it's not a sensible thing to say that Bradford and Burnley are comparable in size.

I don't think that a cross-Bradford link between the Aire and Calder Valleys is worth doing. I can't see enough people wanting to travel from Bingley to Halifax to make it worthwhile. You think differently. Differences of opinion are not unknown on internet discussion boards and are certainly not 'anti Bradford bias'. I want to see Bradford do well - I just don't think the project you propose is part of the solution.

I've been trying, in vain it seems, to get the point across that the scheme being talked about isn't just a Bradford Crossrail, it is a new North Pennine Route (NPR) that will connect Leeds, Bradford, & Manchester via a quicker alignment. In all likelihood there will be no proposal for Aire & Wharfe services to have cross-city connections, any such line would probably be used exclusively by the Leeds-Manchester services calling at Bradford. This thread needs to stop trying to micro-manage the idea by breaking off the cross-Bradford section from the rest of what is being proposed. Of course should such a line ever come into existence, then a number of questions arise. Amongst those is which way will the line connect Leeds & Bradford?

My idea would be to use the rather handy, and relatively straight forward to re-align (compared to a several mile long bore under east Bradford, Stanningley, Bramley) route along the Aire. Four tracking this, as well as finding a way to speed up services through Shipley would provide a potential timing of 12-14 minutes (10 minutes is possible from Shipley-Leeds even as it stands), and close to the aspiration of a 10 minute link the NPR has. The four tracked section could then dive under Bradford city centre somewhere to the North of Forster Square (which could then be closed, making room for more retail space that would be lost with a dive-under) & serve a new Central station which would continue south & west for the NPR services to Manchester & allow Aire/Wharfe services to terminate, offering a simple connection across onto NPR for passengers travelling onwards. The new station, which may be located somewhere between The Broadway centre & the Interchange could then keep the existing station, with a passenger link to Central meaning that all existing connections could be kept although with NPR stopping services along the Calder Valley could once again call at all stations, giving them potentially better services & of course a simple link to NPR at Bradford for those travelling onto Leeds and beyond (as I imagine the NPR services would be more like Liverpool-Manchester-Bradford-Leeds-York & beyond).

And for those questioning why Bradford might be on any NPR, it is West Yorkshire's second biggest city & Metropolitan area by some measure. And although it's economy has suffered badly it is slowly starting to recover and having finally & sensibly given up trying to compete with the Leeds retail sector, Bradford Council are focusing more on leisure opportunities to draw in more tourists whilst keeping enough of a localised retail sector to serve the city's residents. Any such proposal like NPR released would help further galvanise the economy's long term recovery and growth, which is the whole point of looking at routing it through Bradford in the first place. I hope that makes things a bit clearer and we don't descend into another Groundhog Day-like round of "Why Bradford & not CleckHuddersFax?" or "Bradford is a dump why bother?", because these just ignore the whole aim of large scale schemes like HS2 & NPR which is to stimulate growth in the areas they might one day serve.

Edit:

If they are planning on tunneling under the Interchange and linking up with the Aire Valley line, then why not link the two existing stations?

I'm not expecting trains to run from Keighley to Halifax via Bradford, but if the new central station could have two bays either side of the new proposed high speed line then it would make connectivity a lot easier than present.

Great minds like alike it seems, as my suggestion above!!!

 

[quantinghome]

If they are planning on tunneling under the Interchange and linking up with the Aire Valley line, then why not link the two existing stations?

If they were planning to do that, then fine. However, we don't know yet what NPR route is planned (or even if there is one!) But I must say sending NPR from Leeds to Bradford via the Aire Valley would be a huge dogleg. I wouldn't be surprised if the NPR route were to go via Pudsey - it's the most direct and has a four-track formation over a good proportion of its length.

 

[Bantamzen]

If they were planning to do that, then fine. However, we don't know yet what NPR route is planned (or even if there is one!) But I must say sending NPR from Leeds to Bradford via the Aire Valley would be a huge dogleg. I wouldn't be surprised if the NPR route were to go via Pudsey - it's the most direct and has a four-track formation over a good proportion of its length.

I'd say HS2 Euston-Birmingham Int-Leeds as it is planned is something of an indirect route, but that doesn't seem to be an issue because it serves a wider purpose, as would using the Aire route. The route via Pudsey would be far more difficult to 4 track in my opinion, would pose some interesting solutions to dive it at an even steeper descent into a underground station than the current line down to the interchange, and would not necessarily be quicker overall. The Aire line is largely already set at between 75-90mph, the Pudsey route isn't going to be as quick without some serious redesign. Of course all this might be negated by a bored solution emerging just to the west of Leeds, but it would be a far more expensive solution.

 

[tbtc]

With regard to the "veiled racism" comment I made, I should've clarified that I wasn't referring to any comments on this thread or elsewhere on the forum. To avoid any further confusion, I'll state categorically that I meant in general when people IRL slag off Bradford (or indeed Dewsbury).

Fair enough

Don’t you approve of an extension to the wired Northern network?

I certainly approve - wiring the Calder Valley line (plus the line through Brighouse) would be a big improvement to rail oop north - no need for new lines.

The poster comparing Bradford to a large town the size of Burnley.

Bradford is the fifth biggest UK city going on 2011 census data with a population of

• Bradford – 522,452

It's sad that there's so much anti Bradford bias on here.

I would have thought that everyone would be behind the new central station and a link between the Calder and Aire valleys.

I don't know how many times it needs to be pointed out but the "fifth biggest city" stuff only works if you include Keighley/ Ilkley etc. It stretches from Tong to Haworth, from Menston to Oxenhope. Three hundred and seventy square kilometres.

The normal definition of Burnley (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borough_of_Burnley) doesn't include Nelson/ Colne to the north east or Accrington/ Hyndburn to the west. It's only a hundred and ten square kilometres. To be the same geographical size as Bradford you'd probably include most of the M65 corridor, from Colne to Blackburn.

That's not "anti Bradford bias", that's just trying to explain that the city is nothing like as big/important as its residents think.

And, given that rail budgets are relatively limited/ finite, I'd rather that we focussed more on busy flows before worrying about the "nice to have" stuff like the Hebden Bridge - Ilkley Tea Room Express.

I don't think that a cross-Bradford link between the Aire and Calder Valleys is worth doing. I can't see enough people wanting to travel from Bingley to Halifax to make it worthwhile. You think differently. Differences of opinion are not unknown on internet discussion boards and are certainly not 'anti Bradford bias'. I want to see Bradford do well - I just don't think the project you propose is part of the solution.

Agreed - there are much better ways of improving the railway in Bradford - e.g. wiring the Calder Valley route - boring compared to mega-projects though!

And for those questioning why Bradford might be on any NPR, it is West Yorkshire's second biggest city & Metropolitan area by some measure

Bigger than Halifax, bigger than Wakefield, bigger than Huddersfield, fair enough. But is it big enough to divert NPR for?

A direct line from Manchester to Leeds, just short of forty miles, passes relatively close to the centres of Oldham/ Huddersfield/ Brighouse/ Batley.

Manchester - Shipley - Leeds is knocking on fifty miles. Shorter if you tunnel it, but then you're dealing with Bradford's topography, which isn't ideal for trains (much like that of Sheffield).

Really, there's a question about what NPR/ HS3 is intended for. Is it about fast services between the two main conurbations in the north (Manchester and Leeds) or is it about linking in as many places as possible? Do we want one simple route or a dog-leg line that tries to tick as many boxes as possible? If Bradford, why not also Oldham and Brighouse? Where do you draw the line...

Maybe, since the platforms at Foster Square/ Interchange are about half a mile apart, we could just do a Crossrail and have an entrance at both to the underground platforms for NPR - the double-ended stations are all the rage in London!

 

[quantinghome]

My idea would be to use the rather handy, and relatively straight forward to re-align (compared to a several mile long bore under east Bradford, Stanningley, Bramley) route along the Aire. Four tracking this, as well as finding a way to speed up services through Shipley would provide a potential timing of 12-14 minutes (10 minutes is possible from Shipley-Leeds even as it stands), and close to the aspiration of a 10 minute link the NPR has.

Leeds-Shipley has, I believe, a linespeed up to 90mph. I understand this was made possible by easing some of the track curves to make best use of the original four-track alignment. Reinstating the original four-track will therefore require a reduction in linespeed as the curves will tightened. To obtain the desired timings for NPR (actually 7 minutes for Leeds to Bradford), you would need an entirely new rail alignment and an average end-to-end speed of 120mph. The existing Leeds-Pudsey-Bradford line is also mostly four-track so doesn't need anywhere near the amount of tunnelling you believe is required. Being considerably shorter, it can also meet the desired timings at an average of 80mph, or 55mph for the 10 minute journey you suggest, which would obviously make it easier to use the existing alignment.

The four tracked section could then dive under Bradford city centre somewhere to the North of Forster Square (which could then be closed, making room for more retail space that would be lost with a dive-under) & serve a new Central station which would continue south & west for the NPR services to Manchester & allow Aire/Wharfe services to terminate, offering a simple connection across onto NPR for passengers travelling onwards.

Hang on, you want to construct a four-track tunnel alignment through the centre of Bradford and then terminate two of the tracks in the centre?! If you are going to that expense you may as well create the north-south connection for Aire-Calder services, if only to reduce the number of (underground?) platforms required at your new station.

The new station, which may be located somewhere between The Broadway centre & the Interchange could then keep the existing station, with a passenger link to Central meaning that all existing connections could be kept although with NPR stopping services along the Calder Valley could once again call at all stations, giving them potentially better services & of course a simple link to NPR at Bradford for those travelling onto Leeds and beyond (as I imagine the NPR services would be more like Liverpool-Manchester-Bradford-Leeds-York & beyond).

Sorry, I'm really confused now. You would keep Interchange, build a brand new station where the Court Centre is, and have a passenger link between them? Again, if you're going to the expense, why not have a single station?

And for those questioning why Bradford might be on any NPR, it is West Yorkshire's second biggest city & Metropolitan area by some measure. And although it's economy has suffered badly it is slowly starting to recover and having finally & sensibly given up trying to compete with the Leeds retail sector, Bradford Council are focusing more on leisure opportunities to draw in more tourists whilst keeping enough of a localised retail sector to serve the city's residents. Any such proposal like NPR released would help further galvanise the economy's long term recovery and growth, which is the whole point of looking at routing it through Bradford in the first place. I hope that makes things a bit clearer and we don't descend into another Groundhog Day-like round of "Why Bradford & not CleckHuddersFax?" or "Bradford is a dump why bother?", because these just ignore the whole aim of large scale schemes like HS2 & NPR which is to stimulate growth in the areas they might one day serve.

On this at least we agree - NPR should go through Bradford as it is by far the largest population centre between Leeds and Manchester. Huddersfield has a reasonable service to Leeds and Manchester already, shortly to be improved further by TPU.

 

[edwin_m]

The four tracked section could then dive under Bradford city centre somewhere to the North of Forster Square (which could then be closed, making room for more retail space that would be lost with a dive-under) & serve a new Central station which would continue south & west for the NPR services to Manchester & allow Aire/Wharfe services to terminate, offering a simple connection across onto NPR for passengers travelling onwards. The new station, which may be located somewhere between The Broadway centre & the Interchange could then keep the existing station, with a passenger link to Central meaning that all existing connections could be kept although with NPR stopping services along the Calder Valley could once again call at all stations, giving them potentially better services & of course a simple link to NPR at Bradford for those travelling onto Leeds and beyond (as I imagine the NPR services would be more like Liverpool-Manchester-Bradford-Leeds-York & beyond).

This route, and most other Bradford NPR options I can think of, would enter/exit Bradford southwards through the Low Moor area. However the severe gradient of the existing route demonstrates how quickly the ground rises at the edge of the city centre. A station in a tunnel under the relatively low-lying centre of Bradford would be starting even lower than Interchange does, and might have to extend beyond Low Moor to get to the surface with a reasonable gradient. This suggests that a more practicable alignment might be for trains from Manchester to join the existing route near Low Moor then on or near to the old avoiding line, with a station on the south-east fringe of the city centre, before heading off towards Pudsey.