Bradford Stations Consultation / Improvements

[deltic08]

As a Bradfordian, I really don't think a central railway station should be top priority for the city. The cost would be astronomical, just as it would have been before Broadway was (finally) finished. The existing stations need a spruce up and better trains need to serve them. But a Bradford Crossrail would not bring much to the table; that Keighley-Pudsey market is not lucrative.

Spend the money on a decent bus network, instead of the run-down shambles we have now (Transdev excepted).

You re as short-sighted as a Bradford Councillor. You are looking at the wrong corridor. Try looking Aire Valley- Calder Valley-Manchester through trains about 40 minutes quicker than via Leeds and without a change.

 

[superkev]

You re as short-sighted as a Bradford Councillor. You are looking at the wrong corridor. Try looking Aire Valley- Calder Valley-Manchester through trains about 40 minutes quicker than via Leeds and without a change.

Sadly with the law courts and Broadway shed in the way any sort of through station like the once proposed road tunnel round Saltaire will be unaffordable.
Probably best to make best of a bad job and try for a link between the station's and in to wherever hs3 finishes up. The road to huddersfield is mostly wide enough for light rail.
As I said with decent north south links both road and rail across Bradford allowing industry to get its goods to market the aire valley would boom.
What a shambles successive councils have made of Bradford transportation Three unfinished ring roads, a motorway to nowhere, white elephant guided bus way and station's further apart than ever.
Bah
K

 

[Tetchytyke]

Try looking Aire Valley- Calder Valley-Manchester

...which would be much better served with a re-opening of Colne-Skipton. Which would be cheaper and easier too.

It's fun to get the crayons out, don't get n me wrong. But back in reality spending the thick end of a billion quid on Bradford Crossrail would be a quite spectacular waste of money.

There's a reason why these grand schemes never come to anything, and that is because they are a waste of time and money. The north and west of Bradford is still mostly sheep.

 

[Eric]

...which would be much better served with a re-opening of Colne-Skipton. Which would be cheaper and easier too.

It's fun to get the crayons out, don't get n me wrong. But back in reality spending the thick end of a billion quid on Bradford Crossrail would be a quite spectacular waste of money.

There's a reason why these grand schemes never come to anything, and that is because they are a waste of time and money. The north and west of Bradford is still mostly sheep.

What absolute rubbish.

No gives too hoots about Colne to Skipton.

Bradford is the sixth biggest city in the country and has suffered years of transportation neglect.

 

[Eric]

I'd go as far to say that no other city has suffered the same transportation hardship as Bradford.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What absolute rubbish.

No gives too hoots about Colne to Skipton.

The quickest way to Manchester from the Aire Valley is in that direction. Not through Bradford.

Any transport project needs an origin and a destination. That Shipley to Pudsey market is not lucrative. Certainly not worth £600m+.

Bradford's transport has many issues, but the two stations is not one of them.

 

[xotGD]

The quickest way to Manchester from the Aire Valley is in that direction. Not through Bradford.

Any transport project needs an origin and a destination. That Shipley to Pudsey market is not lucrative. Certainly not worth £600m+.

Bradford's transport has many issues, but the two stations is not one of them.

Trains from Colne don't go to Manchester. Would a reopened Skipton - Colne line actually result in a direct Skipton - Manchester service or would there just be an extension of the existing Colne trains?

When the current options are via Leeds or a walk across Bradford, a direct service via a cross-Bradford tunnel would be a godsend.

 

[30907]

Without HS3, NPR or whatever, Aire Valley-Manchester will still be as quick via Leeds as via Bradford (even with a cross-city link). I waa half-joking when I suggested NPR should run via Shipley, but a station connected to Forster Square would make sense.
The Colne route is only relevant from the Craven end, which is not where the population is.

 

[deltic08]

The quickest way to Manchester from the Aire Valley is in that direction. Not through Bradford.

Any transport project needs an origin and a destination. That Shipley to Pudsey market is not lucrative. Certainly not worth £600m+.

Bradford's transport has many issues, but the two stations is not one of them.

Why are you going on again about Shipley-Pudsey not being a lucrative market? We all know that and that is why I said and will say again, you are looking at the wrong corridor.
Aire Valley-Calder Valley through trains across central Bradford would have been popular as it is a shorter journey than via Leeds. I would even say it would be quicker to Manchester Vic than via Skipton-Colne but you are forgetting the substantial settlements of Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge, Todmorden and Rochdale on the way that would not be served by Skipton-Colne trains.
£600m would be extremely good value for money compared to £550m spent on a new roof and extension at Kings Cross, £799m spent on a new station at Reading, £1.0B on a one mile extension of London Underground to Battersea and £270m on Waterloo platform extensions.
This was and is a very important transport issue in Bradford but plodders on BCC could not organise a "party" at a brewery and the opportunity to link both stations by rail has been lost for generations.

 

[Tetchytyke]

From Bradford to the Calder Valley and Manchester, there's already a perfectly good train service. A few extra carriages and away we go.

The Keighley-Halifax market can't even support a bus service. An essential transport link it ain't. As for the other towns in the Aire Valley, they're all small market towns. Have you been to Shipley recently? A slightly faster link to Manchester is the least of its worries.

£600m is being generous as a cost. I reckon you could probably double or even treble it, factoring in everything. For what? To save a half mile walk? To stop the driver gettimg wet changing ends? Even if you build the tunnel, the train will still run Leeds-Bradford-Manchester. Seriously, what would it achieve?

 

[Eric]

From Bradford to the Calder Valley and Manchester, there's already a perfectly good train service. A few extra carriages and away we go.

The Keighley-Halifax market can't even support a bus service. An essential transport link it ain't. As for the other towns in the Aire Valley, they're all small market towns. Have you been to Shipley recently? A slightly faster link to Manchester is the least of its worries.

£600m is being generous as a cost. I reckon you could probably double or even treble it, factoring in everything. For what? To save a half mile walk? To stop the driver gettimg wet changing ends? Even if you build the tunnel, the train will still run Leeds-Bradford-Manchester. Seriously, what would it achieve?

Bradford's public transport network is a mess.

Other cities of Bradford's size across the UK, especially in the south, have been far better served over the last half century where transport is concerned. Unless something happens soon, then we're going to be consigned to the dustbin of history as far as this being a city worth investing in.

The new underground central station linking the Interchange and Forster Square would be the game changing catalyst for Bradford.

At the council meeting I attended last month about the new proposed station our case for a new station is being supported by Leeds and the other authorities in the WYCA area.

They too realise the benefits of finally connecting Bradford and putting it on the heart of the transport map.

My only concern is does our inept council have the competency to deliver the major infrastructure projects this city needs?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The new underground central station linking the Interchange and Forster Square would be the game changing catalyst for Bradford.

Truthfully, I think the most accurate description would be "white elephant".

I'd rather they spent the money sorting out the local transport, rather than a shiny station that adds nothing to Bradford's transport.

Bradford is on a branch line from Leeds and a shiny station won't alter that. The closure of the Spen Valley in the 60s saw to that.

 

[snowball]

Bradford is on a branch line from Leeds and a shiny station won't alter that. The closure of the Spen Valley in the 60s saw to that.

But isn't the whole point of the shiny new station that it would be on a new fast Manchester-Leeds route?

 

[Tetchytyke]

But isn't the whole point of the shiny new station that it would be on a new fast Manchester-Leeds route?

Build a Northern High Speed and there's a strong case for putting Bradford as one of the stations, and you may as well build a new one.

But if you don't, then what does it achieve? The Calder Valley line is not fast, even with a Bradford Crossrail the route via Huddersfield would still be faster.

I can think of better ways to spend a billion quid.

 

[snowball]

Build a Northern High Speed and there's a strong case for putting Bradford as one of the stations, and you may as well build a new one.

But if you don't, then what does it achieve?

We've known for weeks that Transport for the North wants to build a high-speed line via Bradford. The station proposal is clearly part of that, and will not be built if the line isn't built. We may find out more in January.

See posts #139, #140 and #160 in this thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hs3-timeline-and-ideas.130416/

 

[47802]

We've known for weeks that Transport for the North wants to build a high-speed line via Bradford. The station proposal is clearly part of that, and will not be built if the line isn't built. We may find out more in January.

See posts #139, #140 and #160 in this thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hs3-timeline-and-ideas.130416/

Is there a strong case for I'm sure many people would find the idea of building a high speed line via Bradford as utter nonsense and a complete waste of Money as are some of the Other suggested schemes.

If you want to spend money on Bradford Transport Infrastructure then I suggest that a road tunnel under Saltaire and Shipley would be more useful, along with a direct link onto the M606 from the East off the M62 at Chain Bar which was previously cancelled and some way of extending the M606 closer to the centre.

As someone who lives in the Bradford Area all the above road schemes would be far more useful to me than a high speed line to Manchester via Bradford.

As I see it the Topography of Bradford and rail infrastructure is such that it is more suited in many cases to Road investment rather than Rail Investment.

 

[bluenoxid]

I guess it depends what Bradford wants. More road building means more cars. Considering how dominated the city is by cars, reflecting its big cousin Leeds, is more roads going to help the city?

NPR should consider a Bradford route but it should be considered within the boundaries of reason. Bradford is in a bowl (as is Leeds tbh) so this could create a bit of an infrastructure monster. I would also consider Bradford Parkway near Low Moor or Oakenshaw, with a rapid system for transporting people into Bradford. I will be very interested to see TfNs proposals when they are released next month.

 

[Eric]

I guess it depends what Bradford wants. More road building means more cars. Considering how dominated the city is by cars, reflecting its big cousin Leeds, is more roads going to help the city?

NPR should consider a Bradford route but it should be considered within the boundaries of reason. Bradford is in a bowl (as is Leeds tbh) so this could create a bit of an infrastructure monster. I would also consider Bradford Parkway near Low Moor or Oakenshaw, with a rapid system for transporting people into Bradford. I will be very interested to see TfNs proposals when they are released next month.

Build a Northern High Speed and there's a strong case for putting Bradford as one of the stations, and you may as well build a new one.

But if you don't, then what does it achieve? The Calder Valley line is not fast, even with a Bradford Crossrail the route via Huddersfield would still be faster.

I can think of better ways to spend a billion quid.

One of the proposals was to go under the Interchange towards the Broadway and then arch right up Leeds Road to meet the existing line.

You would then create an underground walkway joining the new central station with Forster Square and the Interchange.

 

[Eric]

The last thing Bradford needs is more cars on the road.

I live in Clayton and the journey on the 636/637 from the the town centre to Clayton is ridiculous, with journeys regularly taking over 45 minutes to go three miles.

 

[47802]

The last thing Bradford needs is more cars on the road.

I live in Clayton and the journey on the 636/637 from the the town centre to Clayton is ridiculous, with journeys regularly taking over 45 minutes to go three miles.

And what realistic alternative are you going to come up with to get to Clayton other than Road Transport? and similarly for many other parts of Bradford. Traffic has been bad up to the run up to XMAS as it is in all cities its the worst time of year for Traffic. There are many local roads in Bradford which struggle to cope with the traffic levels but I don't see a High Speed link Manchester really fixing most of that Problem or a rail link between the two stations for that matter.

 

[xotGD]

We've found that the quickest way from the end of the M606 to Keighley and beyond is by driving through the city centre. Something is badly wrong with the road system in the city for this to be the case.

 

[superkev]

Things seem to have moved fast as the BBC have just announced Broadway station opening
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-42472653
Seasons greetings
K

 

[mwmbwls]

I am not sure "What Bradford wants" as seen by the Council, will be the sole criterion for routing NPR even in Bradford. We will have to wait to see which intermediate stops all along the route from Liverpool to Manchester, Leeds, Hull, Middlesbrough, Newcastle etc., are deemed to be in scope. The tunnelled sections into Liverpool and Manchester increase agglomeration benefits by sharing costs with HS2. In Bradford, this is not the case - the cost/benefits will rest solely on NPR. We do not know yet, the precise route through the Pennines - are we talking of a new long tunnel or a series of base tunnels - say cutting directly across from Rochdale to/ or under Halifax? Will there be calls for NPR trains to stop at either of these stations - after all Warrington is in the frame.
Will the inter-city connection time between Leeds and Manchester weigh more than that from Bradford? I found the suggestion earlier that head-line trains from Leeds to Manchester could avoid Bradford, to make the bubble diagram for NPR timings come true, pragmatic but unsatisfactory. I wonder how that will go down in Bradford - having waited for years on the regional side-lines, how will continuing to be partially off-route help the city? I hesitate to write this but, as a non resident, can I respectfully suggest that what Bradford needs may differ from what it wants. It needs to be on the main line where all NPR trains stop offering a regular drum-beat service across the Pennines and regular direct links to the East Coast, North East and Scotland to the East and Liverpool, Crewe and Chester in the West. George Kettering's aphorism that "a problem well stated is a problem half solved" springs to mind. This problem should not be seen as an either/or question - there needs to an answer containing logical "and" answer as in: "Bradford needs improved communication to the entire NPR network and that a dedicated station, which maximises the local regenerative impact, be built. Discuss".

P.S. The idea of creating an entirely new section of city is not without precedent - as seen in the case of Old Oak Common.

 

[B&I]

I am not sure "What Bradford wants" as seen by the Council, will be the sole criterion for routing NPR even in Bradford. We will have to wait to see which intermediate stops all along the route from Liverpool to Manchester, Leeds, Hull, Middlesbrough, Newcastle etc., are deemed to be in scope. The tunnelled sections into Liverpool and Manchester increase agglomeration benefits by sharing costs with HS2. In Bradford, this is not the case - the cost/benefits will rest solely on NPR. We do not know yet, the precise route through the Pennines - are we talking of a new long tunnel or a series of base tunnels - say cutting directly across from Rochdale to/ or under Halifax? Will there be calls for NPR trains to stop at either of these stations - after all Warrington is in the frame.
Will the inter-city connection time between Leeds and Manchester weigh more than that from Bradford? I found the suggestion earlier that head-line trains from Leeds to Manchester could avoid Bradford, to make the bubble diagram for NPR timings come true, pragmatic but unsatisfactory. I wonder how that will go down in Bradford - having waited for years on the regional side-lines, how will continuing to be partially off-route help the city? I hesitate to write this but, as a non resident, can I respectively suggest that what Bradford needs may differ from what it wants. It needs to be on the main line where all NPR trains stop offering a regular drum-beat service across the Pennines and regular direct links to the East Coast, North East and Scotland to the East and Liverpool, Crewe and Chester in the West. George Kettering's aphorism that "a problem well stated is a problem half solved" springs to mind. This problem should not be seen as an either/or question - there needs to an answer containing logical "and" answer as in: "Bradford needs improved communication to the entire NPR network and that a dedicated station, which maximises the local regenerative impact, be built. Discuss".

P.S. The idea of creating an entirely new section of city is not without precedent - as seen in the case of Old Oak Common.

It should not be beyond the bounds of reason to extend at least some London-Leeds HS2 services to Bradford via NPR. This, and using Bradford as a terminus for services to Yorkshire from the Midlands and East Anglia, would transform the city's connectivity

 

[MarkyT]

It should not be beyond the bounds of reason to extend at least some London-Leeds HS2 services to Bradford via NPR. This, and using Bradford as a terminus for services to Yorkshire from the Midlands and East Anglia, would transform the city's connectivity

The existing Interchange station footprint could be extended north with buffer stops moved towards the Broadway centre. That would almost certainly require redevelopment of the court complex but could allow a second entrance to the station to be constructed leading directly into the shopping centre with platforms over 400m long and suitable for full length HS2 trains. Three regular interval trains an hour heading south via Manchester could provide services to each of London, Birmingham and Liverpool, all also calling at Manchester Airport. Which way Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds fast trains go would be unimportant in this scenario. They could skirt Bradford on a fast bypass or go via another route entirely, maybe via Huddersfield-Dewsbury.

 

[deltic08]

£600m is being generous as a cost. I reckon you could probably double or even treble it, factoring in everything. For what? To save a half mile walk? To stop the driver gettimg wet changing ends? Even if you build the tunnel, the train will still run Leeds-Bradford-Manchester. Seriously, what would it achieve?

Can't argue with you about cost but how much did Farnworth tunnel cost as a bored tunnel?
You are right on the mark though for the reason to connect both station. To save half a mile walk, not easy with luggage, with children, in bad weather or if you are elderly or disabled.
What would be achieve? Integration, easier, quicker travel from north Bradford to the Calder Valley and Manchester without changing trains, increasing capacity without trains terminating and reversing and reduction in dwell time increasing efficiency of train crew and trains and untapped growth.

 

[billio]

Trains from Colne don't go to Manchester. Would a reopened Skipton - Colne line actually result in a direct Skipton - Manchester service or would there just be an extension of the existing Colne trains? ....

Although it's a long way round to Manchester, a good service from the Aire valley via Skipton, Burnley, Blackburn, Bolton, Salford and Manchester would connect a lot of large towns together.

 

[Eric]

The existing Interchange station footprint could be extended north with buffer stops moved towards the Broadway centre. That would almost certainly require redevelopment of the court complex but could allow a second entrance to the station to be constructed leading directly into the shopping centre with platforms over 400m long and suitable for full length HS2 trains. Three regular interval trains an hour heading south via Manchester could provide services to each of London, Birmingham and Liverpool, all also calling at Manchester Airport. Which way Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds fast trains go would be unimportant in this scenario. They could skirt Bradford on a fast bypass or go via another route entirely, maybe via Huddersfield-Dewsbury.

I can't see them moving the Interchange back to where the old Exchange station was located.

It's just not going to happen, although you could build on the carpark between the Cinema complex and the Great Victoria Hotel.

I think the underground station at the corner of Well Street (directly opposite Broadway) is the best way forward and would work wonders in regenerating that side of Little Germany.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

And what realistic alternative are you going to come up with to get to Clayton other than Road Transport? and similarly for many other parts of Bradford.

There used to be a railway station at Clayton but it closed in 1955. It was well situated for the eponymous suburb as were Great Horton and Thornton. Queensbury however wasn't, being several hundred feet below the village. Too much of the track bed has now been built on for restoration to be sensible.

 

[urbophile]

Bradford's public transport network is a mess.

Other cities of Bradford's size across the UK, especially in the south, have been far better served over the last half century where transport is concerned.

Really? Apart from London (which is of course much bigger and unlike anywhere else) what cities of Bradford's size are there in the south? There are of course smaller cities with excellent links to London, and dependent on geography, to other major centres. But in terms of local and regional transport which city is any better served? Bristol (the only comparable city population-wise – in fact it is larger if you compare the urban city areas; Bradford's population is inflated by many satellite towns which are not part of the city proper) has an equally lamentable local service. If my very limited experience is anything go by, the road system is impossibly congested and bus services rubbish.