Bradford Stations Consultation / Improvements

[Eric]

Really? Apart from London (which is of course much bigger and unlike anywhere else) what cities of Bradford's size are there in the south? There are of course smaller cities with excellent links to London, and dependent on geography, to other major centres. But in terms of local and regional transport which city is any better served? Bristol (the only comparable city population-wise – in fact it is larger if you compare the urban city areas; Bradford's population is inflated by many satellite towns which are not part of the city proper) has an equally lamentable local service. If my very limited experience is anything go by, the road system is impossibly congested and bus services rubbish.

I don't have the figures to hand but I'd expect that Bradford has some of the worst congestion in the North of England.

The road systems in Bradford are a complete mess with virtually everything becoming gridlocked after 4.00pm until 7.00pm.

It's actually quicker to walk from the city centre to Clayton (three miles) than be stuck on a 636/637 for 50 minutes as it slowly crawls up into Lidget Green.

First Bradford have attempted to improved their services but problems remain due to buses getting caught in the congestion and this then having a knock-on effect.

It's quite common to be waiting 40 mins+ for a supposedly 10 minute service because all the buses are out of sync - stuck in the congested roads.

I've noticed a lot recently that first have started to terminate buses early and run them empty back to the original destination as service zero, due to services running late by over an hour.

 

[urbophile]

I don't have the figures to hand but I'd expect that Bradford has some of the worst congestion in the North of England.

The road systems in Bradford are a complete mess with virtually everything becoming gridlocked after 4.00pm until 7.00pm.

It's actually quicker to walk from the city centre to Clayton (three miles) than be stuck on a 636/637 for 50 minutes as it slowly crawls up into Lidget Green.

First Bradford have attempted to improved their services but problems remain due to buses getting caught in the congestion and this then having a knock-on effect.

It's quite common to be waiting 40 mins+ for a supposedly 10 minute service because all the buses are out of sync - stuck in the congested roads.

I've noticed a lot recently that first have started to terminate buses early and run them empty back to the original destination as service zero, due to services running late by over an hour.

I don't disagree with your comments. As my knowledge of the city dates from many years ago it's not up to date. I can remember the efficient trolleybus system of the 1950s and early 60s, but I suppose even that would struggle against congestion these days.

I was just being slightly nit-picking about your comparison with 'cities in the south of England'. London apart, very few if any are the size of Bradford, and I can't think of any with a decent rail network. Bus services might be better but as they are all subject to deregulation I doubt it.

 

[Eric]

I don't disagree with your comments. As my knowledge of the city dates from many years ago it's not up to date. I can remember the efficient trolleybus system of the 1950s and early 60s, but I suppose even that would struggle against congestion these days.

I was just being slightly nit-picking about your comparison with 'cities in the south of England'. London apart, very few if any are the size of Bradford, and I can't think of any with a decent rail network. Bus services might be better but as they are all subject to deregulation I doubt it.

That's a fair comment David.

I can only really think of Bristol, Wolverhampton, Leicester, maybe Coventry.

All are stations with mainline access.

Here's what remains of the Bradford to Clayton line today.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

To add to Bradford's transport woes, it is impossible for young people to get affordable car insurance. Third world driving standards and practices are tolerated by the police, which maybe puts insurance premiums up, and I suspect many people drive without insurance because they simply can't afford it. Indeed a young relative of mine had to leave town and emigrate to Wakefield as he was quoted £9,000 per year to insure an inexpensive car shortly after passing his test. I drive in Bradford quite a lot (and recognize Farnham Road above) as the train service from Ellesmere Port is so slow and it frightens the life out of me.

 

[47802]

Well I've spent the last 3 months driving all over Bradford and while some of the driving isn't the best I would say there are other parts of the country which have worse drivers but I wont name them to avoid arguments and going off the point.

 

[Eric]

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co....ove_Bradford_Interchange_take_a_step_forward/

Bradford set to get station on high speed Northern Powerhouse Northern Powerhouse Rail line.

BRADFORD is to get a station on the Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) line, it has been confirmed today.

Transport for the North (TfN) has, for the first time, outlined its vision for NPR, a rail network between the North of England's six biggest cities and other economic centres.

NPR, which would see a new railway line linking Leeds with Manchester via Bradford as well as much faster connections between Leeds and Sheffield, Newcastle and Hull, would mean that an extra 46 per cent of the population, more than 1.4 million residents, would be able to access three major cities within 90 minutes from home.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co...._on_high_speed_Northern_Powerhouse_Rail_line/

Biggest news to hit Bradford in years. Congratulations to everyone involved in making this happen.

 

[snowball]

Those press reports are based on this:

http://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/TfN-Strategic-Plan_draft_lr.pdf

 

[YorkshireBear]

Never over till the fat lady sings. It will get one if NPR goes ahead.

 

[Bantamzen]

As pleased as I am about this news, I am still treating it with caution. There's an awful long way to go before this goes even to a planning stage let alone a final buisness case. There is after all just the small matter of finding a new route to Bradford, and then through or around it!!

 

[edwin_m]

Having been involved in a similar study (not this one) I would expect they have devised at least one workable route before they go public, so they can be reasonably confident a feasible solution exists. They won't publish the route in any detail because of the issue of property blight and other impacts on communities that it passes near. In my book that's fair enough because the scheme might not happen at all, and if it does it could quite well go somewhere else instead, so there's no point in unnecessarily worrying people or landing the taxpayer with big bills for compensation.

The initial route is used to estimate cost sand benefits, and if this persuades the relevant people that it's worth developing then more funding will be released. The next stage is be to look more closely at options and come up with a single route which they think is the best one. Only then would they go public and also open a channel for those genuinely affected to claim compensation. Even then there is the possiblity of the route being changed further due to public consultation or other reasons.

 

[Andyh82]

Indeed, remember the fiasco with the HS2 routes through Meadowhall and South Yorkshire.

Still, it isn’t a celebration until a shovel digs into the ground, it could be changed and abandoned 100 times by then.

 

[hawk1911]

Anyone able to share a photo of one of these Bradford pavement markers?

I was in Bradford a few days ago. This is one of the pavement markers, which marks the route between Forster Square and Interchange:

 

[Eric]

I attended a Bradford Council meeting last night and Next Stop Bradford were incredibly confident that TfN would give the green light to the new underground station next to the Broadway.

What wasn't clear was if the line would verge north and join the existing New Pudsey-Leeds line or continue under and out at the end of the Forster Square retail park and potentially give Bradford that link it has desperately needed for 160 years.

 

[quantinghome]

...and potentially give Bradford that link it has desperately needed for 160 years.

A link so desperately needed that it was never built, even when Bradford was one of the richest cities in the world?

I've never understood the argument that crossrail benefits Bradford itself. Its existing stations connect it to most major destinations, and for those it doesn't connect to there are no infrastructure issues that stop a train operator running a service. At best, crossrail gives towns north and south of Bradford a direct link that removes a somewhat inconvenient schlep across Bradford city centre. But that's about it.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe the cross-Bradford link was originally suggested by the Midland Railway to shorten their London-Scotland route and avoid the reversal in Leeds. If that had happened it would indeed have put Bradford more on the railway map. Like York for example, it would have had services calling on their way to other places, giving it a better service frequency and choice of destinations than justified by its population alone. However, this would not have been enough to prevent the extinction of the Midland Main Line as an Anglo-Scottish route, so the benefit to Bradford would have disappeared in the 60s and 70s.

 

[cle]

Where would the electric trains go? Nowhere currently, but they would need to be sent somewhere.

Wiring to Manchester Victoria would be the obvious win - and would enable many more trains to run through there to Rochdale. Thought could also be given to wiring along to Preston, which of course gives access to more wired lines such as Blackpool and the WCML. You'd then need to do Interchange to Leeds just to tidy things up.

The options for services could be quite interesting - Skipton and Ilkley terminators running on to Manchester seems the biggest benefit, plus very high frequency between Bradford, Halifax, Rochdale and Manchester.

 

[quantinghome]

Where would the electric trains go? Nowhere currently, but they would need to be sent somewhere.

Wiring to Manchester Victoria would be the obvious win - and would enable many more trains to run through there to Rochdale. Thought could also be given to wiring along to Preston, which of course gives access to more wired lines such as Blackpool and the WCML. You'd then need to do Interchange to Leeds just to tidy things up.

The options for services could be quite interesting - Skipton and Ilkley terminators running on to Manchester seems the biggest benefit, plus very high frequency between Bradford, Halifax, Rochdale and Manchester.

If they were to continue to Manchester they would be taking paths that currently serve Leeds, which is a much bigger market. This is the basic problem with the Bradford crossrail concept - the major long distance destinations to the north are all to the east (Hull, Teeside, Newcastle) and would have to go via Leeds, much as they do at present. If you wanted to strike out to the north-west instead, there's not much to aim at.

 

[Eric]

Where would the electric trains go? Nowhere currently, but they would need to be sent somewhere.

Wiring to Manchester Victoria would be the obvious win - and would enable many more trains to run through there to Rochdale. Thought could also be given to wiring along to Preston, which of course gives access to more wired lines such as Blackpool and the WCML. You'd then need to do Interchange to Leeds just to tidy things up.

The options for services could be quite interesting - Skipton and Ilkley terminators running on to Manchester seems the biggest benefit, plus very high frequency between Bradford, Halifax, Rochdale and Manchester.

Don't forget the economic benefits to Hebden Bridge/Halifax to Shipley/Bingley/Keighley.

No more arduous trips to Leeds and changes.

Linking the Interchange with Forster Square via a new Bradford Central station is just the economic stimulus that Bradford and both the Calder and Aire valleys need.

TfN hope to have the plans on the table by September.

 

[Eric]

If they were to continue to Manchester they would be taking paths that currently serve Leeds, which is a much bigger market. This is the basic problem with the Bradford crossrail concept - the major long distance destinations to the north are all to the east (Hull, Teeside, Newcastle) and would have to go via Leeds, much as they do at present. If you wanted to strike out to the north-west instead, there's not much to aim at.

What about those passengers going from the Calder Valley to the Aire Valley?

 

[quantinghome]

What about those passengers going from the Calder Valley to the Aire Valley?

While it would undoubtedly be beneficial for those passengers, I doubt they represent sufficient demand to justify a direct service, let alone the cost of constructing the north-south crossrail link. Nor do I think demand is suppressed by the lack of a direct rail link. (I speak as someone who would actually benefit from such a link).

The plans will be for a Leeds-Bradford-Manchester intercity line, not connecting local services.

 

[cle]

If they were to continue to Manchester they would be taking paths that currently serve Leeds, which is a much bigger market. This is the basic problem with the Bradford crossrail concept - the major long distance destinations to the north are all to the east (Hull, Teeside, Newcastle) and would have to go via Leeds, much as they do at present. If you wanted to strike out to the north-west instead, there's not much to aim at.

I think it’s safe to assume that alongside such a large project and wiring the Calder, that works would be done to increase paths. The Leeds trains should remain of course.

 

[tbtc]

A link so desperately needed that it was never built, even when Bradford was one of the richest cities in the world?

I've never understood the argument that crossrail benefits Bradford itself. Its existing stations connect it to most major destinations, and for those it doesn't connect to there are no infrastructure issues that stop a train operator running a service. At best, crossrail gives towns north and south of Bradford a direct link that removes a somewhat inconvenient schlep across Bradford city centre. But that's about it.

If they were to continue to Manchester they would be taking paths that currently serve Leeds, which is a much bigger market. This is the basic problem with the Bradford crossrail concept - the major long distance destinations to the north are all to the east (Hull, Teeside, Newcastle) and would have to go via Leeds, much as they do at present. If you wanted to strike out to the north-west instead, there's not much to aim at.

Agreed - although you are arguing with members of the Crayola Community, who may not appreciate logic and reason!

I don't know why Bradford gets such delusional threads, it's almost as bad as some of the Welsh ones on here - "Crossrail" is the classic example of a solution in need of a problem - people who can't accept two termini stations so close to each other desperately trying to find justification to link them together. That all important market of Hebden Bridge to Ilkley doesn't justify a hundred million pounds though.

Reality is that Bradford is probably the biggest winner from the new Northern franchise, getting direct regular services to Wakefield, Meadowhall, Sheffield, Nottingham, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport, Southport, Chester, Liverpool etc. Some of this will mean running DMUs under the wires (e.g. from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool) but giving Bradford a link to everywhere seems more important than environmental concerns (or worries about how best to utilise a finite number of DMUs), yet there are still complaints that Bradford isn't getting enough. That's not including the beefed up frequency of Kings Cross trains to Bradford or the newly opened station at Low Moor.

I look forward to someone explaining how you fit a regular Manchester Victoria - Skipton/ Ilkley service into the timetable, given the limited number of paths on the Rochdale corridor, without reducing the frequency from Leeds to Halifax/ Hebden Bridge/ Rochdale?

(in fairness, if you *must* run a through service from Skipton to Manchester then at least Bradford Crossrail would be higher up my list than SELRAP, but that's damning it with the faintest of praise!)

 

[B&I]

Could it be something to do with Bradford suffering the worst long distance services of any major British city, terrible traffic problems, and years of economic stagnation ? But of course, no-one should be discussing improvement to the railways on a rail forum. Some people want to make this site about as interesting as National Rail Enquiries

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Could it be something to do with Bradford suffering the worst long distance services of any major British city, terrible traffic problems, and years of economic stagnation ? But of course, no-one should be discussing improvement to the railways on a rail forum. Some people want to make this site about as interesting as National Rail Enquiries

In fairness, as far as the long distance services are concerned, it is about to pick up an extra 6 trains a day to London, on top of the 5 it already has - and this will increase further if Grand Central get their way on running another two services into Interchange. This is on top of the improved Northern services. Bradford's done very well out of some of the recent franchise changes - the only thing it's really missing is services to the North East

 

[mwmbwls]

I attended a Bradford Council meeting last night and Next Stop Bradford were incredibly confident that TfN would give the green light to the new underground station next to the Broadway.

What wasn't clear was if the line would verge north and join the existing New Pudsey-Leeds line or continue under and out at the end of the Forster Square retail park and potentially give Bradford that link it has desperately needed for 160 years.

Did they show any maps?

 

[quantinghome]

Could it be something to do with Bradford suffering the worst long distance services of any major British city, terrible traffic problems, and years of economic stagnation ? But of course, no-one should be discussing improvement to the railways on a rail forum. Some people want to make this site about as interesting as National Rail Enquiries

I don't think anyone's disputing that Bradford has its share of problems, and that folk are free to make suggestions about how infrastructure improvements could help. The problem is that some people present Bradford crossrail as something that self-evidently should happen. Offering a critique of this view is all part of the debate, not trying to shut down discussion.

 

[Islandexpress]

Have to disagree with some of this. For me the benefits of a singular ‘Bradford Central’ is the at least doubling of services and individuals arriving and departing from a Bradford city centre site, giving a new focal point for shops, cafes and businesses to hopefully thrive and regenerate the city centre, which is quite frankly ‘on its arse’ - and I’m a local. Don’t underestimate the power of transports links and termini to regenerate. Look at Kings Cross St Pancras now to the area only 15-20 years ago. Any increase in services and destinations would in my opinion be a nice to have.

 

[thejuggler]

I attended a Bradford Council meeting last night and Next Stop Bradford were incredibly confident that TfN would give the green light to the new underground station next to the Broadway.

What wasn't clear was if the line would verge north and join the existing New Pudsey-Leeds line or continue under and out at the end of the Forster Square retail park and potentially give Bradford that link it has desperately needed for 160 years.

Without a map 'next to Broadway' doesn't mean much.

Broadway is a street, its also a shopping centre. Next to Broadway could mean either Forster Square station, but why underground?

However does 'next to Broadway' actually means the site of the old Exchange as its across the road from Broadway shopping centre and build under the Court?

 

[quantinghome]

Have to disagree with some of this. For me the benefits of a singular ‘Bradford Central’ is the at least doubling of services and individuals arriving and departing from a Bradford city centre site, giving a new focal point for shops, cafes and businesses to hopefully thrive and regenerate the city centre, which is quite frankly ‘on its arse’ - and I’m a local. Don’t underestimate the power of transports links and termini to regenerate. Look at Kings Cross St Pancras now to the area only 15-20 years ago. Any increase in services and destinations would in my opinion be a nice to have.

I think increases in services and destinations are significantly more important than having a single central station. Bradford centre is really compact. I would not be put off working in Bradford by the walk from the current stations. Do people avoid the Broadway centre because it's too much of a hike from interchange? Far more critical are getting faster and more frequent services to London, Manchester and other destinations.

Comparisons with Kings Cross are not really appropriate. Transport links there have been improved by adding new destinations, and of course they upgraded the existing stations rather than replacing them with a new single station. And having a massive amount of land ripe for redevelopment in Central London is rather different to the issues Bradford faces.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I would caution that nothing is decided about any part of NPR - it hasn't been proven to have a business case (and any comment by Bradford on that subject should be taken with a pinch of salt, IMHO).